Converters.Pros and Cons?

[Snargle]

Brian Gray of Edison Pens just posted an extended essay on his site discussing the pros and cons of modern fountain pens with converter filling systems. I'm curious to know how you all feel about them. Would you not buy a pen that has a cartridge/converter filling system? If not, why? What is your preferred filling system for modern pens?

Personally, I think piston fillers are cool as hell, but only have a Lamy 2000, a Pelikan 400NN, and a couple of vintage German school pens. I've got a lot of vintage pens with lever or button filling systems, a couple of eyedropper fillers, some Snorkels, Aerometrics, and Vacumatics, etc., but almost all my modern pens are converter-fillers. Honestly, I'm quite happy with them. They're easy to fill, easy to clean, reliable, and inexpensive. The only downside I see is the small ink capacity, but I don't find myself writing pages and pages of text every time I sit down with a pen. I'm retired, so I'm not note-taking or doing extensive business writing. Plus, I can easily and quickly switch inks if I get bored with a certain color. And, I can always take cartridges with me if I'm doing extended travel and don't want to drag along an ink bottle.

So...what do you think?

 

[shaversnapper]

Sounds like a good argument to me. I'm with you in that I don't write a ton at a time. I guess I would call it pleasure writing. In that case piston fillers or eye droppers would be impractical. Especially if your one who likes to switch inks regularly. For hardcore writers then high cap pens are the way to go. Just goes to show, there's something for everyone.

 

[Doc4]

I prefer pistons or eyedroppers for the capacity. Eyedroppers are THE best way to load samples IMHO ... Inkdrop = eyedrop!! ... but here's one advantage of converters over other filling systems (other than eyedropper): all those systems rely on moving parts inside the pen to load the ink ... moving parts wear out and break down ... I can replace a converter myself and always will be able to do so ... but who knows if there will be guys able to fix pistons or snorkels or whatever in 50 or 100 years? And the cost ... postage, the guy's fee ... postage back ... ugh.

 

[Rockminer]

I'm going to try and condense this down as much as I can, but I will gladly explain in further detail, if anyone wishes me to do so.

I'm in the camp that doesn't particularly like c/c filling systems (in certain applications), not because they don't work, or aren't convenient. I also don't feel like I'm naive or close minded as Brian states in the beginning of his article.

Disclaimer: I don't want to harp on the words Brian used. I probably wouldn't have used them, because I think most fountain pen users know exactly what a c/c is and how it works, and while I can't speak for everyone that doesn't like c/c (in certain applications), I think that most of them understand the filling system quite well, and understands why they don't like them. I just think it was a poor choice of words, nothing more.

The reason I don't really like the c/c option isn't because I wouldn't use it (I have several pens that have a c/c, but they are lower priced pens), but because I feel like a filling system is part of the joy of a fountain pen. I think it's part of an overall experience, just like the Nib, cap, body, overall shape, and manufacturer. Now, when I say that, my thoughts are more geared towards higher end pens. I certainly understand the value of a c/c in a utility pen, or for people that don't really care about filling systems in pens.

This overall joy also applies to other things involved with the hobby, including but not limited to: paper, ink bottles, packaging etc. What if the standard c/c converter was adopted in the other realms of the pen world? What if we had standard international pen packaging, standard international ink bottle size, shape, labeling and packaging, standard international pen design, colors, and shape? I for one know that if this were to happen, I wouldn't be buying any pens that fit this criteria. The reason would be because it wouldn't be fun anymore, and I guess that's the biggest reason I don't particularly like the c/c, it's just not fun. It's not fun to look at and it's not fun to use.

So this brings me back to my statement about not liking the c/c "in certain applications". I feel like higher end pens should come with the option of an alternative filling system. It seems rather easy to build a pen around a filling system that pretty much any pen maker can buy. And if anyone can buy it, and it's roughly the same, industry wide, what am I really paying for? I just don't have a sense of pride in ownership when I unscrew the barrel of an expensive pen and see a c/c, that's used on cheaper pens, starring me in the face. This is where Edison pens shines as a company. Brian offers different filling systems in almost all of his pens (within reason) and it's why I think he's near the top, if not the top, of custom pen manufacturers.

In summary:

I feel like the filling system is as important as any other aspect of a FP. In lower end pens, I don't particularly have a problem with the c/c . The more money I spend, the more I want to be wowed with the pen, and a filling system is a large part of the overall picture of the pen. I'd be far happier if the standard international converter was modeled after the Tibaldi Davina referenced in Brian's article, and would consider buying a lot more pens if that was the norm.

I also understand that not everyone feels the way I do about this subject. We all have things that we like to see when it comes to spending our money on fountain pens, and I completely understand how others may not care so much about the filling system.

 

[andrew98]

Personally, I like the ease with which a c/c pen can be thoroughly cleaned using a bulb syringe. Pelikans aren't much harder to clean, though. Most (maybe all) of my pens are in the sub-$200 range, and most are c/c pens. I tend to be more interested in nibs and the style of the pen body, rather than the filling system. The simpler, the better (for me).

I don't tend to buy too many pens these days because I don't feel I need more than one or two standard (fine, medium, or broad) Schmidt or JoWo nibs, and I own enough pens with unique nibs to keep me happy. A c/c Sailor with a medium-fine Naginata-togi nib or a Pilot Falcon with a soft fine nib, on the other hand, makes for an interesting writing experience. I wouldn't recommend passing up those pens just because they have a c/c.

I don't enjoy flushing piston fillers that have nib units I can't easily remove (Lamy 2000). I have some vintage pens with vac, snorkel, touchdown, and other filling systems. I find them difficult and time-consuming to flush. I suppose I'd be better off dedicating those pens to a particular ink so I wouldn't have to clean them thoroughly between fills.

Most of my pens are fine and medium nibs, and I don't write a lot each day. That's why I've probably never been bothered by the low ink capacity of c/c pens.

This is, of course, a big YMMV issue.

-Andy

 

[shaversnapper]

although not having personally used one, I think some of the best looking pens are the piston or vac filler demonstrators. I think the look of a well made see through pen with a large ink res. is a thing of beauty. however, I think it also has a lot to do with how your going to use it. if you don't write but a few scratches a day and don't use up much ink, then your not taking advantage of the charm and functionality of those high dollar piston fillers. but, if your hobby dictates writing a good deal every day, then by all means.

I wouldn't mind owning a piston or vac filler some day, but even within a hobby, I still like to be able to use what I buy. I'm not for just letting something sit and look good, I want to use it and use it well. much like my love for firearms, I would love to own a beautiful double barrel shot gun, or even a really tricked out AR, but I just wouldn't use it and it would be wasted on me and the value to me would not be there. so at least for now, while my writing habits are negligible at best, the best option are converters. I'm just glad that many a sharp looking and well writing pen can be had with this filling mechanism.

there is a popular YouTube personally that uses the terms "first and second kind of cool." I believe in this whole souled. the first kind of cool being that it works, and works well. this type can be disputed as to whether or not it is actually true. the second kind of cool is the epitome of YMMV: I like it, I think its cool, therefore, you have nothing to say about it cause it has nothing to do with you!

this is the moniker I live by. I love what I love because I love it, and I respect ALL of you for doing the same thing. its when we start "slap fighting" as is being discussed over in the general discussion is when things just start derailing. if you like it....great. if you don't like it.....great!

I love this place for just this reason. we all like what we like, and this is just the place to talk about it

 

[syngent]

I like C/C's there is a reason most higher end pens use them most anything over 1500 bucks will have them probably 10-1 over any other type of system. easy to flush easy to maintain, if something went wrong easy cheap fix as well, I like my other pens with other filling systems but ultimately I buy and use pens for how they write, not how they fill. Ive come to realize my M205 is a 30 or 40 dollar pen with a 80 dollar filling system on it, id rather pay the 30 bucks to have that same pen with a C/C now adays since it would write the same with the same quality. bypassing a pen because of how it fills will leave some great pen options. Paying 150 bucks for a pen with a C/C will have more money in the pen material and feed then a similar priced pen that has a higher priced filling system means less of the money your spending is going to the material quality and feed nib side of things.

 

[ErikE]

I don't mind cartridge converters because, and many have already noted, they are convenient and easy to clean. And sometimes, I don't want to fill my pen up with a giant load of ink. Maybe I'm trying out a sample ink, or maybe I'm using an unusual color for a particular project or purpose. In these instances, getting a giant fill with a piston filler or an eyedropper is a waste, and a converter makes more sense. I generally don't like putting ink back into the original bottle because I am afraid of contaminating it.

But when I do want big ink capacity, I use one of my piston pens, or better one of my eyedroppers. I love eyedroppers! There are a few inks in my cabinet that are real staples for me, and I know I always want a pen around that has that ink in it, and I know I will always use up a big fill. I always have a pen inked in a black ink, for me that's J. Herbin Perle Noire. I use it to sign docs and checks at the office. So I usually have a big capacity eyedropper filled with black ink. I also use a lot of the J. Herbin Lie de The´, which is kind of a signature color for me. So I generally have a piston filler, or and eyedropper filled with a big batch of that ink.

I had Brian Gray build me a custom Pearl in red/black ebonite, that's a real favorite. See photo below. It's slightly extended in length from the standard Pearl, and it has an ink window in the barrel of the pen. What's cool is that I can use it as either a CC filler, or an eyedropper. As an eyedropper, the thing holds a big slug of ink. And as a CC filler, the converter aligns with the ink window so that you can see just the clear part of the converter - no metal trim or plastic screw handle is visible. Because of the curvature of the window, the view of the converter is magnified slightly, and it looks almost like it's eyedropper-filled. The photo shows it in CC mode. It's a cool effect, and it makes the CC filler a lot more fun.

In short, I like converters when I don't want to fill with a lot of ink, which for me, is fairly often. I tend to suffer from ink-ADD, and I want to change colors a lot sometimes. CCs allow me to do that easily.

 

[Jut]

I'm going to try and condense this down as much as I can, but I will gladly explain in further detail, if anyone wishes me to do so.

I'm in the camp that doesn't particularly like c/c filling systems (in certain applications), not because they don't work, or aren't convenient. I also don't feel like I'm naive or close minded as Brian states in the beginning of his article.

Disclaimer: I don't want to harp on the words Brian used. I probably wouldn't have used them, because I think most fountain pen users know exactly what a c/c is and how it works, and while I can't speak for everyone that doesn't like c/c (in certain applications), I think that most of them understand the filling system quite well, and understands why they don't like them. I just think it was a poor choice of words, nothing more.

The reason I don't really like the c/c option isn't because I wouldn't use it (I have several pens that have a c/c, but they are lower priced pens), but because I feel like a filling system is part of the joy of a fountain pen. I think it's part of an overall experience, just like the Nib, cap, body, overall shape, and manufacturer. Now, when I say that, my thoughts are more geared towards higher end pens. I certainly understand the value of a c/c in a utility pen, or for people that don't really care about filling systems in pens.

This overall joy also applies to other things involved with the hobby, including but not limited to: paper, ink bottles, packaging etc. What if the standard c/c converter was adopted in the other realms of the pen world? What if we had standard international pen packaging, standard international ink bottle size, shape, labeling and packaging, standard international pen design, colors, and shape? I for one know that if this were to happen, I wouldn't be buying any pens that fit this criteria. The reason would be because it wouldn't be fun anymore, and I guess that's the biggest reason I don't particularly like the c/c, it's just not fun. It's not fun to look at and it's not fun to use.

So this brings me back to my statement about not liking the c/c "in certain applications". I feel like higher end pens should come with the option of an alternative filling system. It seems rather easy to build a pen around a filling system that pretty much any pen maker can buy. And if anyone can buy it, and it's roughly the same, industry wide, what am I really paying for? I just don't have a sense of pride in ownership when I unscrew the barrel of an expensive pen and see a c/c, that's used on cheaper pens, starring me in the face. This is where Edison pens shines as a company. Brian offers different filling systems in almost all of his pens (within reason) and it's why I think he's near the top, if not the top, of custom pen manufacturers.

In summary:

I feel like the filling system is as important as any other aspect of a FP. In lower end pens, I don't particularly have a problem with the c/c . The more money I spend, the more I want to be wowed with the pen, and a filling system is a large part of the overall picture of the pen. I'd be far happier if the standard international converter was modeled after the Tibaldi Davina referenced in Brian's article, and would consider buying a lot more pens if that was the norm.

I also understand that not everyone feels the way I do about this subject. We all have things that we like to see when it comes to spending our money on fountain pens, and I completely understand how others may not care so much about the filling system.

+1 to pretty much all of this.

I do think someone who refuses to buy a certain pen because it is a c/c is doing a great disservice to themselves. Some of my favorite nibs are on pens that have a converter (Pilot VP and Sheaffer Connoisseur come to mind)

But to say anyone who won't use a converter pen is "naive" isn't really fair either imho. Perhaps some folks have a legitimate reason for not wanting to use them. And by legitimate reason, I guess I mean legitimate to that person because we all have different things we want in a pen.

I don't care for most converters that I have used, but I don't think I'm naive. Converters, and modern ones at that (such as the Schmidts) just seem cheap to me. I actually don't mind the proprietary Sheaffer and Parker converters that are "aerometric" because they seem nicer. If I spend a bunch of my hard earned money on a nice pen, I don't want a cheap converter in it...I want one that is a bit unique and different to use.

 

[docholliday77]

I only have 4 pens. Two are Pelikan pistons and two are c/c.

I like the pistons better, but I think that is just because I like the pens better. I do find the piston mechanism to be elegant and easy to use. I don't like having to wait until a cartridge is empty to switch inks (although for practical purposes, I don't switch inks all that often anyway). I have no qualms about dumping a barrel load of ink back into the bottle, so for me, high capacity has only upside.

I guess I'm a bit contrarian in that I don't find my c/c pens to be that much faster to rinse and clean than my pistons. Both are a pain in the backside, so I usually keep the same color ink in the same pen for a long time and just keep refilling. Usually, when I'm ready for a switch, I re-ink all 4 pens and stick with that new set for quite a while.

 

[docholliday77]

Ive come to realize my M205 is a 30 or 40 dollar pen with a 80 dollar filling system on it, id rather pay the 30 bucks to have that same pen with a C/C now adays since it would write the same with the same quality.

Huh, I have to disagree there. My M205 is my daily workhorse for a reason. It is the best writer I have (next to my M400). I try to baby my M400 because it was so expensive. I use it at work sometimes, but usually I use it to write letters at home.

I would consider my M205 far superior to either my Lamy AL-Star or Levenger pens.

 

[syngent]

I would consider my M205 far superior to either my Lamy AL-Star or Levenger pens.

Way better then Both I would think, it writes okay but lacks on fit and finish compared to most other pens in its price point due to the snap fit construction, and there are lots of pens in the 40 dollar range that are right on par with it other then the piston filler portion of it. A Platinum Plaisir can be had for 9 bucks for instance and will write just as well as this, from the ones I have tried they actually have better flow control. there is nothing wrong with an modern M205, but most of the money you are spending on one (More then half) is in the piston filler, if that was a cart it would sell for 40 bucks or so with the materials its uses and the construction on it, Im not judging the pen at all

 

[Rockminer]

Looks like they want the same for a cartridge pen.

http://www.coloradopen.com/product/...=15490 SLV B&gclid=CM2NvYH6_8ACFRJk7Aod2xsA9g

 

[syngent]

Looks like they want the same for a cartridge pen.

http://www.coloradopen.com/product/...=15490 SLV B&gclid=CM2NvYH6_8ACFRJk7Aod2xsA9g

lol, they can want it, but they shouldn't be getting it. someone is gauging there. i didn't even know this existed, that's insane. there are better options for that money, for a cart only pen i really don't see where the value is.

 

[nemo]

lol, they can want it, but they shouldn't be getting it. someone is gauging there. i didn't even know this existed, that's insane. there are better options for that money, for a cart only pen i really don't see where the value is.

This pen was talked about here --> http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/392288-Don-t-like-piston-fillers-Pelikan-P200

Granted, it should be cheaper but what you are getting is a proven and reliable nib/feed (easily interchangeable with gold options), a high quality pen to hold it, very traditional styling and looks, from a company renowned for its top-tier fountain pens.

Have you checked the prices of classy black Montblanc C/C pens lately? This is what market they are up against, not trying to appeal to Pilot Prera buyers.

 

[Rockminer]

The gouging is coming from the company itself.

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...n-fillers-Pelikan-P200?highlight=pelikan+pens

I agree that it's ridiculous, but that's kind of my point on c/c's in higher end pens. I see it as an easy way out to make some more profit because people, for whatever reason, are willing to pay large sums of money for pens with c/c fillers. If Pelikan would have decided 15 years ago to forego the piston and make all of their pens c/c, there's no way they would have reduced the price. Now, whether they would have sold or not is certainly up for debate, and I have no idea if the 205 cart pens sells well or not, but there are some pretty high end pens that have c/c filling systems that sell rather well.

Imo higher end pens are sold more on a name and limited quantity, than the materials used to make them, and if a pen maker can get away with putting a c/c in the pen instead of an integrated filling system, it's just more profit.

Filling systems aren't that hard or expensive to integrate into a pen. We have a company that offers piston, and vac filled pens for less than $70. I would certainly agree that that particular brand isn't the most luxurious, but I find it hard to believe that some of these higher end pens can't incorporate one and still be profitable, at the price they are now.

I don't hate c/c fillers, I just think they work out well for the pen companies because people buy them and the company makes more money off of them. It's a win win for them.

*i'm not directing this whole post specifically at you James, it's just an overall observation and a little more explanation of my thoughts*

EDIT: I see Doug already posted the link

 

[Rockminer]

This pen was talked about here --> http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/392288-Don-t-like-piston-fillers-Pelikan-P200

Granted, it should be cheaper but what you are getting is a proven and reliable nib/feed (easily interchangeable with gold options), a high quality pen to hold it, very traditional styling and looks, from a company renowned for its top-tier fountain pens.

Have you checked the prices of classy black Montblanc C/C pens lately? This is what market they are up against, not trying to appeal to Pilot Prera buyers.

The only problem is, Pelikan isn't placing any value on their piston as it pertains to the cost, when they charge roughly the same.

 

[nemo]

The only problem is, Pelikan isn't placing any value on their piston as it pertains to the cost, when they charge roughly the same.

I'm sure that many €100 pen buyers do not want to be bothered with open bottles of ink and wiping nibs, leading to a preference and convenience of a cartridge. Especially the newer and modern generation of fountain pen users. Pelikan knows they can get it and after all, they are in it for the money.

 

[Rockminer]

I'm sure that many €100 pen buyers do not want to be bothered with open bottles of ink and wiping nibs, leading to a preference and convenience of a cartridge. Especially the newer and modern generation of fountain pen users. Pelikan knows they can get it and after all, they are in it for the money.

Oh I completely agree. They should sell them for what they can get out of them. Maybe I'm just out of touch with the new age fountain pen user. Maybe most everything will eventually be carts and c/c fillers. I hope that day never comes. I'd be ecstatic if every pen manufacturer offered a filling system or a c c/c option for the same price. But now that the Ketchup is out of the bottle, all that would do is raise prices.

I guess I just have a hard time believing that the pen manufacturers are cutting us a break on price because they're using a c c/c filler. I think they've lucked into the fact that people are willing to buy them at that price. Can't put the Ketchup back in the bottle at this point.

I sure am glad that there are companies still offering integrated systems for reasonable prices. I hope that doesn't go away any time soon.

 

[Doc4]

Funny how that works.

Pelikan has for years been all about the piston fillers ... and when they finally come out with a cartridge pen, they offer it at the same price as their comparable piston filler.

Sailor Pen has for years been all about the converters ... and when they finally came out with the REALO piston filler, they charged a noticeable mark-up for it over their comparable c/c pens.

Even when it's yen or euro, it's all about the benjamins.