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BOXING - Tyson vs. Paul - who else is stoked?

What you’re trying to say is Conn would have won the fight if Louis hadn’t knocked him out.

But Louis knocked him out. Louis beat him. And he beat Conn worse in ‘46. Knocked him out in both fights. The ‘46 bout was comparatively mediocre, but the result was the same.

The ‘41 bout was a very good match, and better than the highlight youtube video you posted. Worth watching in its entirety if you can.




And why do you think that?
In the 1960s the BBC used to show reruns of some of the great fights of the past. Two that I remember vividly were Henry Armstrong vs Barney Ross, and Max Baer vs Primo Carnera.
Quite a few of Joe Louis fights were shown including Conn, Baer, Braddock etc.

What I was trying to show was the way Conn handled Louis.
I’d rate Conn on a par with Patterson, with Patterson possibly having the edge, and I don’t believe that Conn could have given Tyson or Foreman 40lbs.
I envisage Tyson or Foreman, in their own inimitable way, doing a demolition job on Conn similar to Liston on Patterson, or Frazier on Bob Foster.
 

Columbo

Mr. Codgers Neighborhood
In the 1960s the BBC used to show reruns of some of the great fights of the past. Two that I remember vividly were Henry Armstrong vs Barney Ross, and Max Baer vs Primo Carnera.
Quite a few of Joe Louis fights were shown including Conn, Baer, Braddock etc.

What I was trying to show was the way Conn handled Louis.
I’d rate Conn on a par with Patterson, with Patterson possibly having the edge, and I don’t believe that Conn could have given Tyson or Foreman 40lbs.
I envisage Tyson or Foreman, in their own inimitable way, doing a demolition job on Conn similar to Liston on Patterson, or Frazier on Bob Foster.

Billy Conn was considerably quicker and more agile than either of those heavyweights. As was Louis. Neither would have been a short fight, unless Conn made the mistake of trading tight combinations with them as he did with Louis.

A faster fight with later era boxers would be with Ali, who was athletic enough to chase and catch Conn. That was Ali's strength, his athletic agility and ring speed. Unless Conn made a major early mistake, Ali would not have quickly knocked out Conn in a close exchange as Louis did (and Tyson and Foreman would have). But Ali would have gotten to him sooner, and worn him down faster, than the others.

So we will agree to disagree on that issue.

Speaking of Baer v. Carnera, Louis KOed both Baer (in 4) and Carnera (who outweighed Louis by over 60 lbs., in 6).

"Fear is standing on the opposite side of the ring during a fight with Joe Louis , knowing that Joe wants to go home early that evening." Max Baer.
 
It is fun to try to compare boxers across eras. I do not pretend to have watched all the films of fights before Ali came along. And I have not watched video of all the Ali fights with the knowledge I have about boxing at this point, which is pretty limited, and, as they, just enough to be dangerous.

Any such comparisons are highly dependent on exactly where each fighter was in their careers, how old they were.

In particular, I really do not know much about Conn.

What you’re trying to say is Conn would have won the fight if Louis hadn’t knocked him out.
Well, the internet tells me that two of the three judges had Conn ahead going into the 13th round, as Columbo mentions. As I read, Louis was a highly skilled boxer/fighter, but he was also known for having very heavy hands. All it really takes is on good punch, and Conn, after handling things well in the first 12 rounds or so, allowed Louis to get that in the thirteenth round. No fighter is going to be perfect, of course, and mistakes should be more likely toward the end of the fight. (!5 rounds seems like 3 too many to me, anyway!) But I think it is legit to think that Conn could have beaten Louis if Conn had kept up better defense than he did. From what I read, and just from the more obvious supposed facts, I think that Louis must have underestimated Conn, and was not as prepared for the style of fight that Conn brought as he might have been.

My undereducated guess is the Louis learned some things in that first fight and applied them in the second. What did Louis do differently in the second fight? I am not sure I have ever seen a discussion of what a second Ali Foreman fight might be like. I think Foreman would have learned somethings and applied them, but so would Ali have learned somethings, and Ali so much managed to get into Foreman's head that Foreman may not have been able to hold a fight plan together in the ring.

Along with other posters in this thread, I too find it hard that Conn could prevail against one of the more modern fighters named giving up 25 to 40 lbs. Whatever it was exactly. It just seems remarkable that he was fight someone like Louis with that weight disadvantage.

As for Conn versus Foreman or Tyson or Ali, I think Foreman has reputation of gassing by midway through the fight. If Conn could have gotten him there, maybe Conn could have done something. I do not think that Conn could have done that. As for Tyson, I am probably biased in thinking that Tyson at his peak was just too much for anyone other than Ali, and I do not know how Ali would have handled him. I think Tyson at his peak would have dispatched Conn quickly. Tyson was not that big himself. I only think that Ali would have come with something interesting against Tyson. Conn versus Ali, I think it is true that Ali did not have tremendous one punch power, and tended to have to wear other fighters down with lighter punches in a fight. I do tend to think that Ali would have been able to pursue and get in punches with Conn quicker than the other fighters we are talking about, and it would not be a close fight, but would not be an early round knock out.

I suppose, overall, I think that Conn managed somehow to capture lightning in a bottle for that one fight with Louis. I guess I also think that a good boxer and his trainers could look at the film of the Louis/Conn fight and figure out whatever it was that Louis in the heat of battle did not figure out as to how to beat Conn.

And I truly have no idea what a Louis Ali fight would be like. I think Ali would find a way to beat Tyson. But I admire the prime Tyson.

The fight is not always to the strong, or the race to the swift, but it is the way to bet!
 
He just has to dodge Tyson's uppercuts for the first 90 seconds and then he can stick and move and get some counterpunches in.
Interesting thought. I think the accepted wisdom is that uppercuts do not usually make the difference. I guess that they are more of a finishing off punch, or a body blow intended to beat an opponent down over time. But Tyson does seem to get some respect for his uppercuts. Part of that seems to be the analysis that Tyson is a rather unorthodox fighter in the he switches quicky from a regular stance to south paw, and that allows him to throw the uppercut off the forward foot, where does not have so far to travel for one thing and he is able to generate more than usual power in that punch.

Some seem to think the real thing to watch out for with Tyson is the left hook, quick stance shift to south paw, and then right hook, followed by a right uppercut.

Boxing is an interesting sport. My impression is that a lot of boxing is being prepared so that when your opponent does a certain thing you react without even thinking about it. Your opponent starts to throw a left hook, and before than can even register consciously, you duck and slam a left hook into his body. A standard counter punch technique, I think. This is developed over an entire career, not just in preparation for one fighter. It helps if everyone you fight is righthanded and fights the way a right hander traditionally fights. But how do you prepare for someone like Tyson, who is very adapt at doing the unusual?
 
It is fun to try to compare boxers across eras. I do not pretend to have watched all the films of fights before Ali came along. And I have not watched video of all the Ali fights with the knowledge I have about boxing at this point, which is pretty limited, and, as they, just enough to be dangerous.

Any such comparisons are highly dependent on exactly where each fighter was in their careers, how old they were.

In particular, I really do not know much about Conn.


Well, the internet tells me that two of the three judges had Conn ahead going into the 13th round, as Columbo mentions. As I read, Louis was a highly skilled boxer/fighter, but he was also known for having very heavy hands. All it really takes is on good punch, and Conn, after handling things well in the first 12 rounds or so, allowed Louis to get that in the thirteenth round. No fighter is going to be perfect, of course, and mistakes should be more likely toward the end of the fight. (!5 rounds seems like 3 too many to me, anyway!) But I think it is legit to think that Conn could have beaten Louis if Conn had kept up better defense than he did. From what I read, and just from the more obvious supposed facts, I think that Louis must have underestimated Conn, and was not as prepared for the style of fight that Conn brought as he might have been.

My undereducated guess is the Louis learned some things in that first fight and applied them in the second. What did Louis do differently in the second fight? I am not sure I have ever seen a discussion of what a second Ali Foreman fight might be like. I think Foreman would have learned somethings and applied them, but so would Ali have learned somethings, and Ali so much managed to get into Foreman's head that Foreman may not have been able to hold a fight plan together in the ring.

Along with other posters in this thread, I too find it hard that Conn could prevail against one of the more modern fighters named giving up 25 to 40 lbs. Whatever it was exactly. It just seems remarkable that he was fight someone like Louis with that weight disadvantage.

As for Conn versus Foreman or Tyson or Ali, I think Foreman has reputation of gassing by midway through the fight. If Conn could have gotten him there, maybe Conn could have done something. I do not think that Conn could have done that. As for Tyson, I am probably biased in thinking that Tyson at his peak was just too much for anyone other than Ali, and I do not know how Ali would have handled him. I think Tyson at his peak would have dispatched Conn quickly. Tyson was not that big himself. I only think that Ali would have come with something interesting against Tyson. Conn versus Ali, I think it is true that Ali did not have tremendous one punch power, and tended to have to wear other fighters down with lighter punches in a fight. I do tend to think that Ali would have been able to pursue and get in punches with Conn quicker than the other fighters we are talking about, and it would not be a close fight, but would not be an early round knock out.

I suppose, overall, I think that Conn managed somehow to capture lightning in a bottle for that one fight with Louis. I guess I also think that a good boxer and his trainers could look at the film of the Louis/Conn fight and figure out whatever it was that Louis in the heat of battle did not figure out as to how to beat Conn.

And I truly have no idea what a Louis Ali fight would be like. I think Ali would find a way to beat Tyson. But I admire the prime Tyson.

The fight is not always to the strong, or the race to the swift, but it is the way to bet!
Ali in his prime was faster, punched harder, and outweighed Conn by around 30lbs. I’d give Conn 6 or 7 rounds at most.

Tyson in his prime outweighed Conn by around 40lbs, he would have cut the ring off, walked straight through him, and Ko’d Conn inside three rounds.
 
Ali in his prime was faster, punched harder, and outweighed Conn by around 30lbs. I’d give Conn 6 or 7 rounds at most.

Tyson in his prime outweighed Conn by around 40lbs, he would have cut the ring off, walked straight through him, and Ko’d Conn inside three rounds.
There is some interesting analysis on the web of how such fights would go. I do not know that Ali was actually faster than Conn. There are various kinds of speed in boxing, too. Louis was said to have fast hand speed. It is said that Conn's footwork speed, skill, and agility were better in the Louis fight. I would say that there is not much doubt that Ali punched harder than Conn, and would have outweighed Conn by 30 lb or so. But Louis also punched harder than Conn and outweighed him by a similar amount. I think the general wisdom is that Louis punched harder than Ali. There is some opinion on line that shorter, smaller fighters like Conn, were the type that gave Ali trouble. There is also the thought that Louis finally beat Conn with body blows, and that Ali did not do a lot with body blows. Basically the conclusion that Conn could give Ali a good fight. Styles make fights and Conn's style may have been relatively bad for Ali, but not enough to give Ali all that much trouble.

As I have said repeatedly, I do not know anything. I still do not fully comprehend how Conn managed to hang in with Louis as long as he did given the objective criteria, especially the weight difference. I just do not think Conn is going to out box Ali or be able to stay out of Ali's way. I do not think a prime Ali is going to seem slow on his feet, as apparently Louis did in the Conn fight. Also, Ali could be rather unorthodox and unpredictable. I think Ali figures out Conn quickly and hits him early and often enought to slow him down quickly.

As for Tyson, I think I agree that Tyson's aggression and style would overwhelm Conn quickly. Tyson is known for having very fast hand speed in that he could throw punches from all directions very quickly. I do not think Conn is going to be able to handle that. If Conn's style was the type that gave Ali trouble, I do not think it is style that would give Tyson trouble.
 
I ran into a couple of facts/items about the Conn-Louis fight. The fact that the Tyson-Paul fight is put off until November 15 reminded me of the first one.

Louis, the then heavy weight champion, fought seven times in the seven months leading up to the Conn fight. This series of fights was referred to as the bum of the month club by some, but still a fight a month! Those were different times indeed!

Also the odds on the Conn-Louis fight going in were said to be 11-5. I have read various things about that fight to the effect that no one thought Conn had much of a chance. I would say that at 11-5, someone must have been taking Conn seriously!
 
There is some interesting analysis on the web of how such fights would go. I do not know that Ali was actually faster than Conn. There are various kinds of speed in boxing, too. Louis was said to have fast hand speed. It is said that Conn's footwork speed, skill, and agility were better in the Louis fight. I would say that there is not much doubt that Ali punched harder than Conn, and would have outweighed Conn by 30 lb or so. But Louis also punched harder than Conn and outweighed him by a similar amount. I think the general wisdom is that Louis punched harder than Ali. There is some opinion on line that shorter, smaller fighters like Conn, were the type that gave Ali trouble. There is also the thought that Louis finally beat Conn with body blows, and that Ali did not do a lot with body blows. Basically the conclusion that Conn could give Ali a good fight. Styles make fights and Conn's style may have been relatively bad for Ali, but not enough to give Ali all that much trouble.

As I have said repeatedly, I do not know anything. I still do not fully comprehend how Conn managed to hang in with Louis as long as he did given the objective criteria, especially the weight difference. I just do not think Conn is going to out box Ali or be able to stay out of Ali's way. I do not think a prime Ali is going to seem slow on his feet, as apparently Louis did in the Conn fight. Also, Ali could be rather unorthodox and unpredictable. I think Ali figures out Conn quickly and hits him early and often enought to slow him down quickly.

As for Tyson, I think I agree that Tyson's aggression and style would overwhelm Conn quickly. Tyson is known for having very fast hand speed in that he could throw punches from all directions very quickly. I do not think Conn is going to be able to handle that. If Conn's style was the type that gave Ali trouble, I do not think it is style that would give Tyson trouble.
1960s Ali, in my opinion, had faster feet and hands than Conn.
Louis’s foot speed wasn’t that good. Tony Galento was one of the bum’s of the month that you mentioned, and his fight with Louis gives a good example of Louis’s foot speed.
 
Louis’s foot speed wasn’t that good.
I think that is the general wisdom. Thanks for the tip on the Galento fight.

They say that Ali would have been fast even for a middle weight, but I think they are talking about hand speed. Seems to me Ali had very fast feet for a heavyweight or even for a light heavyweight. My knowledge runs out at lower weights!
 
Tonight is the night who’s making predictions?
I have no idea. I think I would bet Tyson. A professional boxer is a skilled athlete and I do not think Tyson would have lost all skills in this time.

I find myself looking forward to it, but with a sense that his could be truly awful entertainment-wise.
 

Mr. Shavington

Knows Hot Turkish Toilets
At least it is free to view, which I feel is a fair price.

I suppose everybody watching wants to see Tyson hurt the internet guy badly. I expect we’ll be disappointed because they’ve probably agreed in advance to drag it out for the whole eight mini-rounds. They are using giant sized comedy gloves too, right?
 
Tyson has forgot more about boxing than Paul knows.

While they may like each other. Tyson, at his core, is a "killer." Tyson has had more one punch knocks outs, amateur and professional, than Paul has had fights. Paul lost the one fight he had v a real boxer- Tommy Fury.

Presuming an honest fight, Tyson in 3. One to feel him out. Two to loosen him. Three to close the deal.
 
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