Get some Norton honing oil at a hardware store near you.
I'm sure they have it. Baby oil will do fine too.
Very nice stone too!
I'm sure they have it. Baby oil will do fine too.
Very nice stone too!
J-nat, Coticule or Thoringian
- Thread starter fuzzymuzzle
- Start date
Looks like a nice stone to me.
Give it a spin.
Give it a spin.
I ouned and i honed on a multiple kind of hones - Jnats , Coticules . thuringians ,, novaculite
The coticules i began to sell first as they are a good prepolishers , but they gave pretty inconsistant results and need a lot of technique to finish on them .
Thuringians - lets say that not all are created equal and very good finishers , nee some technique also for outstanding edges .
The Jnats are the most advanced and vertisaile stones that someone can use as they manage to do the job of a coticule and thuringian wihout so much technique and with more consstant results
They are the best stones for honing a fine tools and razors and once you pas on them , there is no turning back Its like riding a donkey and a horse
The coticules i began to sell first as they are a good prepolishers , but they gave pretty inconsistant results and need a lot of technique to finish on them .
Thuringians - lets say that not all are created equal and very good finishers , nee some technique also for outstanding edges .
The Jnats are the most advanced and vertisaile stones that someone can use as they manage to do the job of a coticule and thuringian wihout so much technique and with more consstant results
They are the best stones for honing a fine tools and razors and once you pas on them , there is no turning back Its like riding a donkey and a horse
Each system listed is valid, each one produces it's own results and in the hands of any given user - each can be as good as another for the intended purpose. Preferences are what they are, and subjectivity rules the day in this arena - but there are certain objective points to consider here.
If someone achieves inconsistent results from Cotis, perhaps it's the users capabilities that are questionable, and not the stones.
Factually - many people shave off Coticules regularly, and happily so. Yes, they do make great midrange stones, some even make decent/good bevel-setters. They also finish well when you have a good stone and you work at learning how to use it. Some are more challenging than others, I also think a fair number of vintage Cotis might possibly not be all that fine. I do know that any stone I've gotten from Ardennes in recent times has been very serviceable.
All natural stones are unique, each one has it's own fingerprint on the edge and technique to get there.
Everyone knows I love Jnats - but I'll be the first person to tell you that picking one up does not infer instant success - or any success at all for that matter. I've known a good number of people to struggle with them, when they've found faster/easier success with a Coticule.
There are tons and tons of stone labeled as Jnat - not all of it is prime-time razor hone quallity. The Cheap Oozukus come to mind here first ; some are good, others just ok, some are complete crap. Those Jynshouhonyama stones are also Jnats, but known to be more of a tool-grade or generic cutlery option. The list goes on and on. Bottom line, calling out all Jnats as wonder stones for razors is shortsighted and inaccurate.
When the jnat is good, I don't see them as easier to work on but I can see how someone else might feel that way.
In my experience, milking the max out of Jnats takes more effort and intuition than other stones. I do think that one can, and can does not mean will, achieve a higher degree of refinement when they put in the work. I know for a fact - that refinement does not come easily, or as often as many people claim.
Thuringians - I've yet to meet anyone that had a certified/qualified Thuri razor stone that had 'issues' of any kinds. I've yet to handle such a stone that was anything than top shelf, uber - consistent and a damn fine razor finisher.
Unknown stones that are assumed to be Thuringians are another story and probably the origin of anyone claiming inconsistency. Slate is what it is - just because a stone is slate doesn't make it a Thuringian or a Thuringian that was determined to be one used for razors. I can't tell you exactly how many Eschers, SRDs, or generically labeled Wasser Abziehstein stones I've handled/owned/used - but that number is fairly notable and every single one of those stones was a damn fine finisher and as consistent as it gets.
Factually, Eschers/Thuris are the least 'technique' oriented finisher out there. You can be blind, hone with mittens on in a tornado while hanging upside down and still get a great edge.
Anyone challenged by finishing on a Thuri is actually most likely incompetent at setting bevels and doing the follow up work.
Modern tool stones sold on fleapay as 'Thuringians', other 'assumed to be Thuringians', and any stone sold as "Escher?" anywhere - and so on - are suspect and shouldn't be grouped in with the Thuris/Eschers/etc. labeled as and sold as razor hones.
Some people buy a rock, want to believe it's an unlabled Escher because of saw marks or some other silliness or the fact that it was grouped in with razors does not make it a Thuri, and if somehow you can prove it is one - there's no way to know if the quarry intended for it to be a razor hone.
Like Jnats - lots of stone coming out of the ground in those mines were not intended for use as a razor hone.
If someone achieves inconsistent results from Cotis, perhaps it's the users capabilities that are questionable, and not the stones.
Factually - many people shave off Coticules regularly, and happily so. Yes, they do make great midrange stones, some even make decent/good bevel-setters. They also finish well when you have a good stone and you work at learning how to use it. Some are more challenging than others, I also think a fair number of vintage Cotis might possibly not be all that fine. I do know that any stone I've gotten from Ardennes in recent times has been very serviceable.
All natural stones are unique, each one has it's own fingerprint on the edge and technique to get there.
Everyone knows I love Jnats - but I'll be the first person to tell you that picking one up does not infer instant success - or any success at all for that matter. I've known a good number of people to struggle with them, when they've found faster/easier success with a Coticule.
There are tons and tons of stone labeled as Jnat - not all of it is prime-time razor hone quallity. The Cheap Oozukus come to mind here first ; some are good, others just ok, some are complete crap. Those Jynshouhonyama stones are also Jnats, but known to be more of a tool-grade or generic cutlery option. The list goes on and on. Bottom line, calling out all Jnats as wonder stones for razors is shortsighted and inaccurate.
When the jnat is good, I don't see them as easier to work on but I can see how someone else might feel that way.
In my experience, milking the max out of Jnats takes more effort and intuition than other stones. I do think that one can, and can does not mean will, achieve a higher degree of refinement when they put in the work. I know for a fact - that refinement does not come easily, or as often as many people claim.
Thuringians - I've yet to meet anyone that had a certified/qualified Thuri razor stone that had 'issues' of any kinds. I've yet to handle such a stone that was anything than top shelf, uber - consistent and a damn fine razor finisher.
Unknown stones that are assumed to be Thuringians are another story and probably the origin of anyone claiming inconsistency. Slate is what it is - just because a stone is slate doesn't make it a Thuringian or a Thuringian that was determined to be one used for razors. I can't tell you exactly how many Eschers, SRDs, or generically labeled Wasser Abziehstein stones I've handled/owned/used - but that number is fairly notable and every single one of those stones was a damn fine finisher and as consistent as it gets.
Factually, Eschers/Thuris are the least 'technique' oriented finisher out there. You can be blind, hone with mittens on in a tornado while hanging upside down and still get a great edge.
Anyone challenged by finishing on a Thuri is actually most likely incompetent at setting bevels and doing the follow up work.
Modern tool stones sold on fleapay as 'Thuringians', other 'assumed to be Thuringians', and any stone sold as "Escher?" anywhere - and so on - are suspect and shouldn't be grouped in with the Thuris/Eschers/etc. labeled as and sold as razor hones.
Some people buy a rock, want to believe it's an unlabled Escher because of saw marks or some other silliness or the fact that it was grouped in with razors does not make it a Thuri, and if somehow you can prove it is one - there's no way to know if the quarry intended for it to be a razor hone.
Like Jnats - lots of stone coming out of the ground in those mines were not intended for use as a razor hone.
Thuris and eschers IMO dont produce a keen enough edge for me, so its all academic until you try different things to see what you like, Ive never gotten the type of edges I get from jnats with a thuri or escher. My cotis with the exception of my les lat hybrid the same. And there is a max on a stone, a place where you will hit a brick wall. IMO I dont even bother, I can get it easy with other stones, my goal is to shave well and I do. Not to try to tickle something to see if it will produce or not. JMO
- Thread starter
- #27
Wonderful and informative write-up, Gamma.
From the beginning of my engineering/machinist apprenticeship in the early 1980s I was the guy delegated to do all the in-house heat treating and much of the grinding, lapping and polishing in the rather large "metal shops" where I was working. Don't know why I was chosen for that, but it worked out. It seems that I have the patience needed to polish. I've spent the better part of a week polishing just 2 or 3 small parts. The finish on these parts had to be like that seen on precision gage blocks.
I think I would like to end up with a Jnat. My mother-in-law lives in Japan and will soon be coming to visit for a couple of months. I wonder if she can procure one in Japan cheaper than what the same stone my go for here.
Whether or not that is the case, I would like to learn what names/brands have a good reputation and what features/elements to look for in a Jnat.
I like the fact that there is much to learn from every razor and every stone. Pretty sure I have the determination and patience to get the most from each.
Didn't try the black hard Arkansas yesterday as I had to monitor closely the goose and turkey that I had in the smoker.
From the beginning of my engineering/machinist apprenticeship in the early 1980s I was the guy delegated to do all the in-house heat treating and much of the grinding, lapping and polishing in the rather large "metal shops" where I was working. Don't know why I was chosen for that, but it worked out. It seems that I have the patience needed to polish. I've spent the better part of a week polishing just 2 or 3 small parts. The finish on these parts had to be like that seen on precision gage blocks.
I think I would like to end up with a Jnat. My mother-in-law lives in Japan and will soon be coming to visit for a couple of months. I wonder if she can procure one in Japan cheaper than what the same stone my go for here.
Whether or not that is the case, I would like to learn what names/brands have a good reputation and what features/elements to look for in a Jnat.
I like the fact that there is much to learn from every razor and every stone. Pretty sure I have the determination and patience to get the most from each.
Didn't try the black hard Arkansas yesterday as I had to monitor closely the goose and turkey that I had in the smoker.
Fantastic write up Gamma! Can't remember the last time I saw that much intelligence concentrated into such a small area! People ask all the time what finisher they should get. I think they should all read your post!
Gamma, thanks for the Great write up !!
You'll definitely be able to save on shipping as stones ship domestically here for about $5.
However, location and selection from afar and so on will still be issues, particularly if you or your mother in law cannot read Japanese. And many of us living here can actually speak Japanese well enough but are functionally illiterate as being able to actually read Japanese is a very high bar (roughly 1800 kanji to learn for basic highschool-level literacy). I'm definitely in that boat and there's no shame in it if your mother in law is too, it's super common.
Of course the real answer is for you to visit the mom-in-law and have a side mission
However, location and selection from afar and so on will still be issues, particularly if you or your mother in law cannot read Japanese. And many of us living here can actually speak Japanese well enough but are functionally illiterate as being able to actually read Japanese is a very high bar (roughly 1800 kanji to learn for basic highschool-level literacy). I'm definitely in that boat and there's no shame in it if your mother in law is too, it's super common.
Of course the real answer is for you to visit the mom-in-law and have a side mission
- Thread starter
- #32
My mother-in-law is Japanese. It's English she can't speak, read or write. In order for her to purchase a stone for me I'd have to find out pretty much what should be indicated on the label, Then have my wife translate that from English to Kanji, Hiragana or Katakana so my mother-in-law can look for those words on the label.
As has been said, Thuri's are excellent and give exceedingly sharp edges. Yes, some high quality Jnats can surpass them, but I've shaved off Jnat edges that were considered incredibly sharp by their honer/owner to find them not even in the same ballpark as Thuri edges (I've also shaved off some that were indeed sharper than a thuri edge). I've got to agree with Keith that if you find Thuri's to be difficult or their edges not sharp enough, unless you're working off a labeled Escher, you're probably just being optimistic calling your generic slate a Thuringian. Disliking coticules I find more reasonable. Some are certainly more difficult than others and there is a significant difference in the final edge from stone to stone, contrary to popular belief a few years back. I've got several I can shave happily off of, others I find give shaves that are a bit under my standards. That's not to say you can't shave off them. They give good shaves, I just have EXTREMELY high standards from almost a decade and tens of thousands of dollars spent searching for "the perfect edge".
I would say the most guaranteed stone you can buy is a Thuri, assuming you can be assured it's legitimate (a majority of "thuri" on eBay aren't). Coticules and Jnats are kind of a chop. I think it's easier to get a good quality Coticule than quality razor finishing Jnat, but the Jnat max is a bit higher if you get your hands on a really good one. With coticules, I find vintage stones to average a bit better quality than modern rock. With Jnats, you almost have to put yourself in the hands of a seller you trust and their experience selecting stones for our purpose, or just blindly gamble and hope for luck, which is more fun but probably less reliable.
People have mentioned Arkansas. Which I like, but are more difficult to use than Thuri's or your average coticule or good quality Jnat, with razors. They're not terribly difficult, but they also aren't wet-and-go, like the other stones often can be (or in the case of Thuri's always are). A few years ago they were Laughably undervalued and represented among razor honers, and I back then I'd strongly promote people to take advantage of that and try them. Recently a few others have started using them, and they've gained a deserved increase in use and reputation (and price), so they're an option, but not the steal they used to be (I remember when you could pick up 6x2x1 and 8x2x1 vintage translucent stones for under $50. Good luck with that these days.
There are of course many other options. I would rank the mystery french stones I collect right up there with Thuri's. Schwedensteins fall around coticules (below a great coti, about even with an average coti). My apache is almost Thuri quality. And there are a few barber stones that can give excellent shaves. Not quite Thuri-quality, but bouncing around avg to above avg coti quality. Most of the other "competitor" stones I've tried fall well short, which is why I've got almost a hundred Coti + Thuri's combined, but I've certainly not used every alternative out there.
I would say the most guaranteed stone you can buy is a Thuri, assuming you can be assured it's legitimate (a majority of "thuri" on eBay aren't). Coticules and Jnats are kind of a chop. I think it's easier to get a good quality Coticule than quality razor finishing Jnat, but the Jnat max is a bit higher if you get your hands on a really good one. With coticules, I find vintage stones to average a bit better quality than modern rock. With Jnats, you almost have to put yourself in the hands of a seller you trust and their experience selecting stones for our purpose, or just blindly gamble and hope for luck, which is more fun but probably less reliable.
People have mentioned Arkansas. Which I like, but are more difficult to use than Thuri's or your average coticule or good quality Jnat, with razors. They're not terribly difficult, but they also aren't wet-and-go, like the other stones often can be (or in the case of Thuri's always are). A few years ago they were Laughably undervalued and represented among razor honers, and I back then I'd strongly promote people to take advantage of that and try them. Recently a few others have started using them, and they've gained a deserved increase in use and reputation (and price), so they're an option, but not the steal they used to be (I remember when you could pick up 6x2x1 and 8x2x1 vintage translucent stones for under $50. Good luck with that these days.
There are of course many other options. I would rank the mystery french stones I collect right up there with Thuri's. Schwedensteins fall around coticules (below a great coti, about even with an average coti). My apache is almost Thuri quality. And there are a few barber stones that can give excellent shaves. Not quite Thuri-quality, but bouncing around avg to above avg coti quality. Most of the other "competitor" stones I've tried fall well short, which is why I've got almost a hundred Coti + Thuri's combined, but I've certainly not used every alternative out there.
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