AR 15's?

This post is inspired by another AR 15 post I just read. I have a question. What is the attraction of the AR 15, AK 47, and similar semi auto rifles? When I go to the range, the vast majority of rifles there are the military type semi auto rifles. These guys shoot as fast as they can and if they are anywhere on the paper, they are happy. Most of their groups look like a couple of loads of #00 buck shot were fired at the target. Their empty brass flies all over the place and they don't even care if someone to their right gets hit by it. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but man these guns are butt ugly to me. These guys are always impressed with my 1/2" and smaller groups, but did it ever occur to them that they too could be shooting tight groups with the choice of a different type of rifle? I guess not.

I know you are going to say I am a snob, and maybe so, but I am proud of my reloaded accurate ammo fired through my accurate rifles. To me, accuracy is the name of the game, not shooting hundreds of rounds at a time just to make noise. I shoot single shot and bolt action rifles in various calibers and some of them are perfect examples of fine walnut and blued steel of the gun makers art. And, most of them actually cost less than some of the plastic semi autos I see at the range. So why do so many people shoot these semi auto contraptions?
cottontop

I enjoy shooting all types of rifles and pistols. For me it depends on my mood as to what type of shooting I want to do that day. For the most part I enjoy the methodical steps of one of my old favorites a single shot rolling block .22. I shot that at about 1 round per minute but to me that is fun, I have killed many of paper targets and cans with it. I have also shot a Colt AR-15 with a bump fire stock which throws lead down ranges are a ridiculous rate and that is also fun. It all depends on my mood. I think people that shot single shot or bolt action guns are more accurate shooters overall. Just my 2 cents.

cottontop said:

This post is inspired by another AR 15 post I just read. I have a question. What is the attraction of the AR 15, AK 47, and similar semi auto rifles? When I go to the range, the vast majority of rifles there are the military type semi auto rifles. These guys shoot as fast as they can and if they are anywhere on the paper, they are happy. Most of their groups look like a couple of loads of #00 buck shot were fired at the target. Their empty brass flies all over the place and they don't even care if someone to their right gets hit by it. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but man these guns are butt ugly to me. These guys are always impressed with my 1/2" and smaller groups, but did it ever occur to them that they too could be shooting tight groups with the choice of a different type of rifle? I guess not.

I know you are going to say I am a snob, and maybe so, but I am proud of my reloaded accurate ammo fired through my accurate rifles. To me, accuracy is the name of the game, not shooting hundreds of rounds at a time just to make noise. I shoot single shot and bolt action rifles in various calibers and some of them are perfect examples of fine walnut and blued steel of the gun makers art. And, most of them actually cost less than some of the plastic semi autos I see at the range. So why do so many people shoot these semi auto contraptions?
cottontop

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Because people like and want "CHEAP", and that is what a Stoner rifle is.

I went with custom commercially made M14's (M25 to be exact). They will drop at 800-100 yds. That is a REAL military semi-auto rifle. Got my all-steel 1911's and revolvers to go with them. I would never do plastic again.

Z blade said:

Because people like and want "CHEAP", and that is what a Stoner rifle is.

I went with custom commercially made M14's (M25 to be exact). They will drop at 800-100 yds. That is a REAL military semi-auto rifle. Got my all-steel 1911's and revolvers to go with them. I would never do plastic again.

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But why do so many shooters want and buy expensive (like over $1000) for some of these semi auto rifles instead of single shot and bolt actions? Many of them cost way more than my Ruger #1's.
cottontop

Meh. Different strokes perhaps. Soaps vs. Creams, balms vs splashes, semi auto vs.single shot.
I own an AR that I have never even shot. I like the platform, but don't shoot much these days.
$1000? An AR isn't worth that to me. The$500 I spent is ok though

In defense of plastic, my G19 is a fine weapon. Shoots as well as any of my pistols which range in age from 1760 to 2012.

You might say that these shooter are not infringing on my rights at the range. But indeed they are. Their empty brass flies at me and hits me and my bench and instead of enjoying my shooting time, I am dodging flying brass most of the time. All they have to do is carry with them a portable screen and set it on their table or install a brass catcher bag on the side of their gun and then everyone will be happy. Out of the 100's of shooters I have seen there, I have only seen two who have done this. The fact is that they just don't care about anyone but themselves.
cottontop

I see it as just different strokes for different folks. I have a Bushmaster, but I also have and shoot 3 Garands, a Krag, a SwissK-31 and my Cowboy Action guns.

I would agree that the AR platform tends to attract shooters who are new because it is cool looking. I have a suspicion that the rude shooters cited by cottontop would be rude and inconsiderate regardless of their rifle choice.

I can certainly understand and I agree with his frustration.

cottontop said:

But why do so many shooters want and buy expensive (like over $1000) for some of these semi auto rifles instead of single shot and bolt actions? Many of them cost way more than my Ruger #1's.
cottontop

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I have several Ruger #1's as well as several AR types, some of which are in what was a semi custom caliber at the time, 6.5 Grendel. The caliber has since been standardized and is available in commercial ammo. Some of the guns are shorter carbine types, a couple have long bench type barrels. Most I assembled myself after shopping and acquiring the parts, and generally cost quite a bit more than my #1's.

No they are not as pretty, but for the most part shoot more accurately, probably because of premium barrels and triggers. Some of my Rugers have Keppplinger set triggers and other aftermarket triggers which are better than factory , but still not as good as the better AR triggers. I do not shoot my rifles fast, even though they are capable of it for two reasons, I like to see where my shots go and do not care to burn through ammo and get the barrel very hot.

Reguarding the commet about AR shooters infringing on another shooter, I agree. One range I go to over in NE Louisiana has chicken wire type screens between each bench so that cannot happen. If at a range without such brass stoppers, I put a plastic crate type box on the bench to catch my brass or attach a dedicated brass catcher to my rifle. I reload and do not want to have to hunt for brass, especially if it will disturb another shooter.

I have approached the local range many times about installing screens between the shooting tables, but they don't even want to discuss it. This range is owned by the county and they don't want to spend the money for the screens and the installation. I believe that what will happen is that someone will lose an eye as a result of getting hit in the eye by an ejected brass. Then there will be a law suit and the range will be permanently closed down. It is just a matter of time.
cottontop

Would the range allow you to bring and set up a cheap cardboard folding room divider on your left to prevent being pinged by other shooters' brass?

BSAGuy said:

Would the range allow you to bring and set up a cheap cardboard folding room divider on your left to prevent being pinged by other shooters' brass?

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They would if it didn't block the view of the range master. That is definitely something to think about.
cottontop

cottontop said:

But why do so many shooters want and buy expensive (like over $1000) for some of these semi auto rifles instead of single shot and bolt actions? Many of them cost way more than my Ruger #1's.
cottontop

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Mine are custom-made M25's that were over that price x 4, so I might not be the one discuss price with! Some of those bench bolt rifles are pretty expensive as well! I will own mine one day.

Military-type rifles are for those who have never actually been in the military and wish they would have been. I carried around and shot thousands of rounds through an M16 for 13 years and the AR-15 is the last rifle I would buy even though they probably are more accurate than a standard-issue M-16.

Most people who buy "tactical" firearms and gear don't even know the difference between "tactical" and "strategic." For them, "tactical" means "black, cool and what the cops and military use." Tactical pistols, tactical rifles, tactical shotguns, tactical knives, tactical tomahawks, tactical utensil sets. Where does it end?

Not everyone is interested in bench rest shooting. Your question is kind of like someone who likes classic cars asking what people see in modern muscle cars. Short answer to the rifle question is that they're fun, and they have a greater versatility than a bolt action or single shot.

ARs aren't inherently inaccurate, a good maker, or a well put together AR pattern, can rival a good bolt action, though you usually do get more accuracy from a bolt action than you do from a semi of similar cost. AK is more inaccurate, but it is gun of glorious Motherland, so it gets a pass for that. In any event, the people you're describing should be able to get some tighter groups if they chose to put in the effort.

But to present an opposite view, I just find bolt actions dull, though I wouldn't mind getting a K31 or a Tikka someday and doing the accuracy thing with one of those. I cant see myself buying a single shot though, seems like a waste of money to me with so many other more appealing options available, but to each their own.

As far as the people hitting you with their brass, they just sound like trashy aholes, if they're aware of it happening. The range I go to has wooden frames with screen hanging off to prevent that sort of thing, and the RO would likely have the semi shooter put one up if that was happening.

Maybe you've been around some more inexperienced shooters. ARs and gun ownership has been gaining in popularity for the past few years, and without a good RO some might never pick up range etiquette and things like that.

muhleskinner said:

Military-type rifles are for those who have never actually been in the military and wish they would have been. I carried around and shot thousands of rounds through an M16 for 13 years and the AR-15 is the last rifle I would buy even though they probably are more accurate than a standard-issue M-16.

Most people who buy "tactical" firearms and gear don't even know the difference between "tactical" and "strategic." For them, "tactical" means "black, cool and what the cops and military use." Tactical pistols, tactical rifles, tactical shotguns, tactical knives, tactical tomahawks, tactical utensil sets. Where does it end?

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Ummm... no. Sure, there are goofy tactical tobys out there who dress up in fatigues and do stuff like carry ARs that they call M4s and pin fake medals on themselves, but where I've shot they're much more the exception than the rule, and painting all semi rifle owners with that brush is silly. I wasn't in the military, never wanted to be, still don't, and I've got 2 ARs and an AK, in addition to other guns. The range I go to is has plenty of ex-military and sometimes current mil with ARs, normal people with ARs, and very few tobys. The RO is a crusty old retired mil guy that loves ARs, and has an AR he shoots competition with. He's always showing off pics of his groups from it on his phone... and they're pretty nice groups.

I'm not painting all semi-auto guys with that brush, just AR-15 enthusiasts.

Most on the forum are probably too young to appreciate them, but if you want a nice-shooting semi-auto "military rifle" with some class, character and accuracy, try out a .30-06 M-1 Garand or a .308 M-14 replica like the SA M1.

Ghosts from an earlier generation when "tactical" meant "Good for killing Nazis, Italians, Japanese, North Koreans, Chinese and North Vietnamese....."

cottontop said:

I have approached the local range many times about installing screens between the shooting tables, but they don't even want to discuss it. This range is owned by the county and they don't want to spend the money for the screens and the installation. I believe that what will happen is that someone will lose an eye as a result of getting hit in the eye by an ejected brass. Then there will be a law suit and the range will be permanently closed down. It is just a matter of time.
cottontop

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The range I mentioned is a public, parish range in W.Monroe,La. operated by the sheriffs dept. Previously the range had been on the east side of Monroe, probably 15miles away at the airport and had operated there for years, the sheriffs dept taking over operation back in the mid 1960's. It had been an old range built by the army-air force just prior to WWII, and had fallen into disrepair, if you could call that for just a large earthen berm. The sheriffs dept removed the smaller berm for target pullers, then added a covered firing line and a small shed for the range personnel, enlarging it over the years. I was in college at the time and was lucky to be among the first to use it.

About 15 years ago the FAA got a bug in their bonnet thinking someone might shoot an aircraft as one of the approach patterns was just over and behind the impact berm. The sheriffs dept stalled the FAA for several years by installing a concrete block wall infront of shooting benches with little holes of windows for rifles to fire through, and did not allow anything but bench rest shooting. A strong windstorm destroyed the wall and prompted the move across the parish from the airport, where a new public range and adjacent law enforcement range was built. They still have fears of bullets leaving the range and allow nothing but bench rest for high power rifles ( I asked and was told I could shoot my little 32-20 rifle over on the pistol range in any position I wanted.)

Reading one of my previous posts, I think I may have been a little vague. The reason I wouldn't buy an AR-15 isn't because I think it's a poor rifle, it's because I just really never want to pick one of the things up again when there are so many other choices available to me. I'll still continue to make fun of those who do, though........

So what do you all think if they are banned and it would be illegal to buy one or maybe even own one and that looks like a possibility for the near future in the wake of all of these school shootings? I would think that bolt actions and single shots will experience a new surge in popularity.
cottontop

It's just a matter of time before they find a way to take all the guns. It won't matter if they're semi-auto or single shots. It won't be an outright "gun ban," it will take the form of an ammo ban, mandated and outrageously-priced liability insurance for guns owners, something along those lines.