Gillette Single Rings with British Patent Numbers

Hello,

got another British beauty, this time with double diamonds, us patent information on inner tube and F serial on outer tube, will post details as soon as I can.

I have three British Single rings (and a US thick cap) and all look different, this confuses me a bit.
Could someone be so kind and post a picture (with a measuring tape or ruler if possible) of a thin cap Single ring (marketed in the US), assembled and disassembled?
I assume the British Sr with US patent info will have the same dimensions as an US Sr.

Thank you

Adam

Thanks to Adam, Juan and kt66 for the contributions. I have managed to set aside a little time and have entered your contributions into the Wiki.

Juan, I have looked carefully at the photos of your razor and in my opinion it was made in the old Gordons boot factory at Leicester around the end of 1908. It is my belief that this old factory was initially leased by Gillette who then bought the land on which the factory stood and either extended the factory or built new factory premises on the land, and that the new facility opened in early 1909 and was accompanied by a change in marking protocol. The Script box would fit this period; does it have the British Patent on the underside of the box? The PAT.NOV.15.04.N marking that is found on many of the razors that seemed to be destined for the French market is still a mystery but I am in agreement with Mike when he said that the most plausible speculation would be that the French may have disdained a product bearing the English patent.

kt66, your razor is interesting in that it is the earliest F series razor in our database (does it have the British Patent under the box?), and that you found it in the UK as it is speculated that the F series were produced for the French market. In my opinion your razor was produced in Paris in early 1908, but you should note that this opinion is speculative and not supported by some other contributors to this thread. If you have time to post some photos it would be greatly appreciated.

Adam, you are certainly collecting a lot of the British razors in a very short time. It took me years to find my first one. It is interesting that you are finding differences in their sizes as this would be more significant than size differences with the US made SRs.

As previously stated, it is my opinion that K.C. Gillette established factories in Paris and Berlin and acquired a lease on a factory in Leicester which he subsequently purchased and extended or added to. The business was then transferred to "the English Company" who subsequently closed the razor manufacture on the continent leaving them with only blade manufacture. In my opinion the change in marking protocol occured when the new/extended factory at Leicester began production. I think that the E series were produced in Leicester, initially with the marking protocol shown in red in the Wiki, and from early 1909, when the new factory went into production, with the marking protocol shown in black in the Wiki. I think that the red F and H series were made in Paris and Berlin respectively until they ceased production of razors ( and possibly returned their machinery to Leicester) after which Leicester produced all series with the new protocol as shown in black with "F" and "H" now designating the market for which they were destined.

If you can post a table of the observed differences of the sizes of your British/Continental made razors we may be able, with contributions from other members, to detect a pattern between size and speculated place/time of manufacture.

Cheers, George

Hello George,

to be honest I only wanted one British, the second came with the hope of being an 77/88 and the third looked like a US one.
The dimensions of the US thin cap are interesting for me as I have only a thick cap.

This is the third British, the blade banks were added by me, as I have a few spares around.

Double Gillette diamonds ond top cap and base plate
Patent information on upper lip of inner tube: Pat. Nov. 15.04. N
Serial number on lower smooth ring of handle: F359687
British patent info on box



Adam

Tried my best and made a table of my British ones. The third (right side or top) has Pat. Nov. 14.05. N, the 7150... is only there to confuse you (sorry). Hope my handwriting is readable.

From top to bottom (or left to right):
patent info
serial
markings
weight
height of upper smooth band
height of patterned band
height of lower smooth band
height of inner barrel smooth part
height of knob
height of central rod smooth part
height of central rod threaded part



Adam

GBinOZ said:

kt66, your razor is interesting in that it is the earliest F series razor in our database (does it have the British Patent under the box?), and that you found it in the UK as it is speculated that the F series were produced for the French market. In my opinion your razor was produced in Paris in early 1908, but you should note that this opinion is speculative and not supported by some other contributors to this thread. If you have time to post some photos it would be greatly appreciated.

Click to expand...

The box is rough, but it has the "Limited Licence" text on the bottom, and being in English, I'd think it must have been produced for the British market? Of course, it's always possible that someone paired up the razor and box at a later date, so who knows...

I've attached a couple of photos. If you need anything else, let me know.

GBinOZ said:

Thanks to Adam, Juan and kt66 for the contributions. I have managed to set aside a little time and have entered your contributions into the Wiki.

Juan, I have looked carefully at the photos of your razor and in my opinion it was made in the old Gordons boot factory at Leicester around the end of 1908. It is my belief that this old factory was initially leased by Gillette who then bought the land on which the factory stood and either extended the factory or built new factory premises on the land, and that the new facility opened in early 1909 and was accompanied by a change in marking protocol. The Script box would fit this period; does it have the British Patent on the underside of the box? The PAT.NOV.15.04.N marking that is found on many of the razors that seemed to be destined for the French market is still a mystery but I am in agreement with Mike when he said that the most plausible speculation would be that the French may have disdained a product bearing the English patent.

kt66, your razor is interesting in that it is the earliest F series razor in our database (does it have the British Patent under the box?), and that you found it in the UK as it is speculated that the F series were produced for the French market. In my opinion your razor was produced in Paris in early 1908, but you should note that this opinion is speculative and not supported by some other contributors to this thread. If you have time to post some photos it would be greatly appreciated.

Adam, you are certainly collecting a lot of the British razors in a very short time. It took me years to find my first one. It is interesting that you are finding differences in their sizes as this would be more significant than size differences with the US made SRs.

As previously stated, it is my opinion that K.C. Gillette established factories in Paris and Berlin and acquired a lease on a factory in Leicester which he subsequently purchased and extended or added to. The business was then transferred to "the English Company" who subsequently closed the razor manufacture on the continent leaving them with only blade manufacture. In my opinion the change in marking protocol occured when the new/extended factory at Leicester began production. I think that the E series were produced in Leicester, initially with the marking protocol shown in red in the Wiki, and from early 1909, when the new factory went into production, with the marking protocol shown in black in the Wiki. I think that the red F and H series were made in Paris and Berlin respectively until they ceased production of razors ( and possibly returned their machinery to Leicester) after which Leicester produced all series with the new protocol as shown in black with "F" and "H" now designating the market for which they were destined.

If you can post a table of the observed differences of the sizes of your British/Continental made razors we may be able, with contributions from other members, to detect a pattern between size and speculated place/time of manufacture.

Cheers, George

Click to expand...

Thank you, George. It is very interesting and I highly appreciate it. I'm learning (well, trying...) a lot from you and all the informed members... and of course now I'm even more interested in English SRs...

There's no Patent on the underside of the box. So it means it might be before that change, 1908-1909, that is?

Useless shaver said:

There's no Patent on the underside of the box. So it means it might be before that change, 1908-1909, that is?

Click to expand...

Juan, given the postition of your razor in the Wiki, my guess would be late 1908.

Stu, I haven't seen any of these Licence statements in any other language than English.

Adam, thanks for the info on your 3rd BSR. Does it have the GinD in either a cartouche or a square?
There are interesting differences in your three examples. I'll do a similar chart for my three and include a US model made in 1908.

Cheers, George

Hello George,

thank you for the question as it almost slipped under my radar. F359687 has a G in a square stamp on the lower side of the comb, it came from France.
Browsing through the Wiki page, trying to figure out a possible relation between date codes and type of GD stamp (no luck), I noticed Achims (whose else) razor B56223 is not listed, it looks to be another weird serial.
http://www.mr-razor.com/Rasierer/Old Type/1906-08 Single Ring England.JPG

Looking forward to see the US dimensions.

Adam

GBinOZ said:

Juan, given the postition of your razor in the Wiki, my guess would be late 1908.

Stu, I haven't seen any of these Licence statements in any other language than English.

Adam, thanks for the info on your 3rd BSR. Does it have the GinD in either a cartouche or a square?
There are interesting differences in your three examples. I'll do a similar chart for my three and include a US model made in 1908.

Cheers, George

Click to expand...

Thanks, George.

I've acquired another BSR and will post it, but I'd like to add dimensions to see if there are differences between them and with the US models I have, as Adam -nicely- has done and even asked me to do so. Well done, Adam.

Short of time here... excuse me...

Well, while I try to find time to make that chart.... I'll post photos of the razor I was referring to, apparently another English SR

The razor comes from Germany, but came in a shipper which states "Made in Boston, USA" and "Importé des États Unis". Might be a mismatch?

Serial number F265342 on lower part outer barrel.
PAT.NOV.15.04.N on upper part inner barrel.
G in D on guard plate down.
Gillette diamond logo on head cap (down) and baseplate (upper side).

Below you have the photos. The razor is not cleaned up, yet... busy here...

Very nice, Juan Manuel. Congrats!

I agree that it is most likely a mismatch. The patent info and marking protocol are European while case and shipper state it was made in the US.

nuclearblast said:

Very nice, Juan Manuel. Congrats!

I agree that it is most likely a mismatch. The patent info and marking protocol are European while case and shipper state it was made in the US.

Click to expand...

Thanks, Edgar!

kt66 said:

I haven't been here in a while... here's the info on mine:

Serial number F018558 on top of guard plate.

BR.PAT.No.28763.02 on outer barrel.

No logos or branding anywhere.

I found it here in England and the box has the older script logo inside.

Click to expand...

GBinOZ said:

kt66, your razor is interesting in that it is the earliest F series razor in our database (does it have the British Patent under the box?), and that you found it in the UK as it is speculated that the F series were produced for the French market. In my opinion your razor was produced in Paris in early 1908, but you should note that this opinion is speculative and not supported by some other contributors to this thread. If you have time to post some photos it would be greatly appreciated.

Click to expand...

I have some additional information that might possibly throw a spanner into the works here. I've held off including my sterling cased set in the mix here primarily because it was the only one I'd ever seen, so I didn't know whether it was a one-off custom piece or what. But recently another collector I know turned up a second one just like it (although his was sadly just the case without the contents) by the same silversmith, H. Matthews of Birmingham. His case is hallmarked 1909 and mine is 1910. The razor that came in my set is marked pretty much the same way as kt66's -- "BR.PAT.No.28763.02" on the outer barrel, serial number on the top of the guard plate, no other markings -- but my serial number is a very crisp E078912.

If the linkage between my case's hallmark and the razor's serial number can be trusted, then I would think that pulls that whole series a bit later than you might like, George. Sure, there'd be some gap between the two, but I would think that it would be closer to 1910 than 1908.

Incidentally, the use of the script logo later in the European markets also doesn't seem at all strange to me. For whatever reasons, they definitely used it far longer there than they did in the States. The ad below comes up in 1918 publications, for example:

nuclearblast said:

Very nice, Juan Manuel. Congrats!

I agree that it is most likely a mismatch. The patent info and marking protocol are European while case and shipper state it was made in the US.

Click to expand...

I would agree, too. To look at it, I'd bet that the razor was swapped into that set, but the rest of it looks like it would logically fit with the American-series number that's on the bottom of the carton for a 1918 set.

Thank you Porter. Based on the ad, I have two thoughts, will throw them in.
I think only the British company used the Gillette diamond with a horizontal line instead of the arrow, so ABC pocket sets having the same logo and double stamped heads are not "real" ABC sets but of British production, this would explain slightly different handle pattern and thread design.

Adam

MacDaddy said:

I would agree, too. To look at it, I'd bet that the razor was swapped into that set, but the rest of it looks like it would logically fit with the American-series number that's on the bottom of the carton for a 1918 set.

Click to expand...

Thanks, Porter.

Useless shaver said:

MacDaddy said:

I would agree, too. To look at it, I'd bet that the razor was swapped into that set, but the rest of it looks like it would logically fit with the American-series number that's on the bottom of the carton for a 1918 set.

Click to expand...

Thanks, Porter.

Click to expand...

Sorry, typo there. That should have been "1917" from what looks like E 60807 on the bottom of the carton. My fingers must have still been thinking of the ad above.

MacDaddy said:

Sorry, typo there. That should have been "1917" from what looks like E 60807 on the bottom of the carton. My fingers must have still been thinking of the ad above.

Click to expand...

Oh, yes, indeed, 1917. Thanks!

Now I need to find the right razor for the set....

Useless shaver said:

Oh, yes, indeed, 1917. Thanks!

Now I need to find the right razor for the set....

Click to expand...

And a case for the English Single Ring.

nuclearblast said:

And a case for the English Single Ring.

Click to expand...