Why reduction?

I understand the concept of making multiple passes to reduce the length of the hair and I'm not arguing that it's wrong, just wondering why does the length of the hair matter when your eventually going to lop it off at the skin level anyway? Logically, I would almost think that less passes of the blade against the skin would cause less irritation even though I know this not to be true. Why isn’t one against the grain pass less irritating to the skin than 3 or 4 passes?

Good question!

When I was young, I could get away with a single ATG pass indeed. Now that I am older, with tougher stubble, I need to do a WTG pass first. But I don't know the mechanics behind that.

I find that when I don't do a with the grain pass first, I definitely get irritation. Lately I've been doing WTG and then XTG/ATG on touch up spots like chin, cheeks and lower neck. The goatee area gets irritation with ATG. I do get your point though and some of the videos seem like they do multiple passes as then go WTG.

Well, I think it comes down to what is meant by "reduction". The first pass cuts most of the hair at skin level, or at least it does for me. But at the scale of the really small, the razor skips over some, leaving just a little bit of hair. Not all is completely cut down to skin level. So it's not a matter of cutting the hair at "above" skin level, then cutting it at skin level. I get nearly all of it cut down to skin level on the first pass, it's just that additional passes are required to get really smooth. Think of each pass as reducing the amount of remaining felt stubble, vs reducing the height of hair, per se.

To your point about less passes means less irritation, you're spot on. The blade is always touching your skin..first pass to last. So anything you can do to do less of that (sans pressure), is going to reduce the chance for irritation. This is one of the reasons a good, super slick lather is important to reduce friction.

ImAdummy2 said:

I understand the concept of making multiple passes to reduce the length of the hair and I'm not arguing that it's wrong, just wondering why does the length of the hair matter when your eventually going to lop it off at the skin level anyway? Logically, I would almost think that less passes of the blade against the skin would cause less irritation even though I know this not to be true. Why isn’t one against the grain pass less irritating to the skin than 3 or 4 passes?

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My understanding of reduction is that you don't cut all of the hairs the first time AND you don't cut all of them close. So you're not strictly reducing either the length or the quantity, you're reducing the amount of hair. When you leave a few long hairs, the blade passes over those hairs, preventing it from getting closer. So you need another pass to get close.

You should certainly get all of them by the second pass, and the rest of the passes are to cut close. If you have good technique and enough experience, you'll get nearly all of them clipped down with one pass. Remember that most of these tutorials target inexperienced shavers, so this is good advice for them, since they probably don't cut all the hairs the first time. More advanced shavers would need a different set of instructions for specific "advanced" techinques.

Anyway...

If you go straight for ATG, the blade will miss cutting some hairs and get pushed down into the skin because it's under those hairs. I could go on about how YMMV, and get personal and say I never do a WTG pass, but that's just to say, YMMV and you need to find what works for you.

I guess whiskers are a bit like problems: if you get at them from a couple of angles, you're more likely to be rid of them.

+1

SiBurning said:

My understanding of reduction is that you don't cut all of the hairs the first time AND you don't cut all of them close. So you're not strictly reducing either the length or the quantity, you're reducing the amount of hair. When you leave a few long hairs, the blade passes over those hairs, preventing it from getting closer. So you need another pass to get close.

You should certainly get all of them by the second pass, and the rest of the passes are to cut close. If you have good technique and enough experience, you'll get nearly all of them clipped down with one pass. Remember that most of these tutorials target inexperienced shavers, so this is good advice for them, since they probably don't cut all the hairs the first time. More advanced shavers would need a different set of instructions for specific "advanced" techinques.

Anyway...

If you go straight for ATG, the blade will miss cutting some hairs and get pushed down into the skin because it's under those hairs. I could go on about how YMMV, and get personal and say I never do a WTG pass, but that's just to say, YMMV and you need to find what works for you.

Click to expand...

I'm not an expert at the theory of reduction :-D...... but, here's my perspective on it. Most people can't get a very smooth result after a single pass (for a whole array of reasons).... if it's done gently and properly. In order to get a single pass to be smooth, you have to scrape more, use more pressure, go over spots more than once, etc. etc...... this is what causes BIG PROBLEMS.

Therefore, at least for me, multiple passes is a way of making sure that you don't go over the same spot twice with no lather and taking the pressure off of getting a BBS shave on the first pass. That way you can relax and go easier, be more gentle, and get better results.

There's probably also some aspect to the hair tugging and catching on the blade if it's too long to start with, but I don't know the mechanics of that....

-Badger Bill

ImAdummy2 said:

.... Why isn’t one against the grain pass less irritating to the skin than 3 or 4 passes?

Click to expand...

Try it.

aihpcfl said:

Try it.

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I have and I get all kinds of irritation. Again, Im not arguing against the multi pass shave, just trying to understand the "mechanics behind it" asjohnt1968 said.http://badgerandblade.com/vb/member.php/66960-johant1968

All kinds of good info here though as I was under the impression that in each pass your chopping down a little bit of the length of the hair.

ATG tugs and pulls on the stubble more before finally going through it. While going with the grain allows the blade to slide along the hair and cut it in a sharper angle, thus more easily and comfortably. At least that's how I see it (and as best as my English vocabulary allows me to explain it )

I'm glad you asked the question, because I've wondered myself what is really going on down there.

My guess (uneducated) is that there's a "wrap-around" effect going. WTG pass is easy for obvious reasons. But let's theorize that the hair doesn't cut straight across, but has a slant face. Then the XTG pass comes at that slanted face from the side. So it can bite into the hair to where the blade sees a low side and a high side, and on the low side, it's almost no cut. So the blade guillotines through it, cutting from the flush side to the high side. Now, the hair has a low side that is also seen from the ATG direction. The blade can then "bite" more gradually, by a guillotine slice through that slanted hair face.

ImAdummy2 said:

I have and I get all kinds of irritation. Again, Im not arguing against the multi pass shave, just trying to understand the "mechanics behind it" asjohnt1968 said.

All kinds of good info here though as I was under the impression that in each pass your chopping down a little bit of the length of the hair.

Click to expand...

I think you have to go against the grain to get real close. As you found, doing the first pass against the grain isn't comfortable, even with just 24 hours growth.

I agree mostly with what the others have said, but I believe that just mechanically it isn't possible for the blade to cut whiskers as close to the skin when going with the grain as it is when cutting against the grain. Even if the first pass is real clean, it won't be close. I imagine the blade bending the hair down on the with the grain pass, maybe the edge sliding along the hair a bit before it bites in; but when going against the grain the blade is standing the hair up and at the same time being forced down towards the skin, thus biting in and cutting closer to the skin. That's the way I visualize the physics anyway. Also, I think it explains an against the grain pass is so uncomfortable if you do it first. It isn't so much skin irritation, especially if you keep the pressure off, but the manipulation of tough whiskers in jello like skin with lots of nerve endings, and there is less bending the hair up and back when it is short. My theory anyway.

EDIT: Face Bannon's idea is not bad either.

I hate to mix mechanics with practical advice. It results in bad advice for newbies. With that caveat...

More or less fact based:

• Hair doesn't actually slice cleanly, it fractures. That means a good bit of pulling or pushing on the hair, depeding on the direction of the fracture.
• Grain is the direction that hair grows out of the face, typically at some acute angle, except around the chin where it can reach 90 degrees.
• Fractures at the leading edge of hair tend to go straight across the hair, but when it diverges, it goes in a random direction, not in the direction of the pull. But fractures that occur in the middle of the cut tend to lean in the direction of the force from the blade. (This is actually also random, but when it's toward the shaft, it results in a split towards the shaft, with the blade continuing to fracture away from the shaft.)
• Pulling (on the root) occurs throughout cutting. Additional pulling occurs (1) when the fracture leads the blade away from the root, (2) when you fail to cut, and (3) when you try making the initial cut, passing through the harder outer layer, or just compressing it to begin the fracture.
• Neither your skin nor your hair are flat & smooth, and they both flex, move, and buckle to some extent under the pressure of the blade, no matter how slight that pressure.
• Shaving faster requires more pressure to cut through hair, but the resulting momentum and energy increases faster.
• It's always easier to cut anything when you move the blade partly across the cut instead of straight through.

My thoughts:

• When you shave with the grain, any pulling will stretch the hair taut. This is like holding a string in your hand and slicing it by drawing the knife away from your hand, pulling it taut with the knife as you go. Go against the grain, and you're pushing on a string.
• Some hairs won't get cut, at least not immediately. As the blade moves, it either pulls the hair or slides across it. If it slides going against the grain, it tugs a tiny bit at the root. Regardless of whether it slides or pulls, the blade must move away from the skin (or vice verse) by a distance equal to the thickness of the hair. Against the grain, the blade moves toward the hair shaft, forcing itself into the skin, which translates into more pressure on the skin.

My conclusions:

• Use as little pressure as possible. While this increases the likelihood of not cutting a hair, which increases pulling, it also decreases the forces against the skin which translates into less irritation.
• Shave as fast as you can keep things under control, taking advantage of the blade's momentum. While speed increases pressure, momentum is based on the mathematical square of speed. In other words, you get more cutting energy when you go fast.
• Always move the blade at an angle, either a slide, hook, or some other motion--anything but straight on.
• Never go directly with or against the grain, but always at some angle. This avoids the whole issue of compressing the hair shaft--how the hair shaft grows at an angle to the skin surface, and moves while you shave. Combine this with the other angle, especially when trying to get as close a shave as posible.
• Try skin pulling. Better, learn to make the blade do that for you.
• Forget mapping the grain of your hair. Instead, map the directions that make shaving easiest, where the pressure is reduced the most and the blade cuts the closest.

It may be counterproductive to mention this, but my approach is pretty close to the techniques of method shaving, though I have no patience to create my own mixes. Also notice I have absolutely nothing to say about blades--I think they're all sharp enough and you can find an approach to use any of them.

That's a great question. I don't know the answer, but it shows you're really thinking about it, which is good.

All I know is I enjoy the process - the more passes I do, the more time I have to enjoy!

Also: very interesting information Steve! I actually found I got a slightly better shave without following strictly the grain.

That's an informative answer, SiBurning. Thanks. So does all that support the concept of reduction, generally speaking?

Because there's still that nagging question of why an XTG or ATG would be any easier after a WTG pass.

I havent thought it through previously, so this is a bit offhand...

First... One fracture fact I didn't mention before is that the closer you cut to the holding point--let's say the skin surface--the fewer fractures you get. So, onto my guesswork.

Very short hairs means you're mostly nicking off small diagonals rather than cutting through the whole hair. If that's right, it neatly explains why multiple passes gives a closer shave. That translates into a shorter path through the hair, which is simply less cutting, and that's good... obviously. It also yields fewer, shorter fractures, which means less pulling, and less hurt. Very short hairs also means you're not moving the blade over other hairs--assuming the hair protrudes less than the distance between the hairs so it nevers overlaps another hair, or something like that--so the blade remain in constant, intimate contact with the skin. Or maybe the important thing is really the (lack of) bouncing that occurs as you go over rather than through a hair. Very short hairs also means the hair isn't pushing the blade into the skin as you go ATG, or maybe just not as much. In addition to diagonals, perhaps we're also slicing thin rounds off the end, and it's just easier for a very thin or small diagonal waste part to bend, making for an easier cut through the hair.

I'll add that I'm not very satisfied with these guesses, but at this point we're strictly talking about reducing length. I'm guessing this gives me another piece of advice: multiple passes, or blade buff. Moot point for me since I tend to buff all my passes.

You can see why I hate giving advice, especially to newbies. I can't tell them to buff a j-hook as fast as you can.

So then the idea that we are reducing the length of the hair holds true? I get blade buffing as I have to do it on some stubborn parts on my jawline.
So your saying quick, almost blade buffing, on diagonal to the grain passes will stretch the hair and cut the hair down so that there is less tugging on the hair and the hair around it thereby causing the skin less irritation?

Emanon said:

Interesting answers. I have a different thought. First, I think that these videos (mantics etc) are aimed at beginners so are teaching fundamentals as well as teaching caution. I always thought that the instruction was just telling beginners to go easy and not try to get all the hair off at once. Not so much a matter of with the grain or against. And not a matter of actually being able to get all the hair with any stroke. I assumed, and still do, that what was meant by reduction was this:

It is the idea of multiple passes. In other words "re-lathering." Trying to get all the hair at once meant, in my opinion or interpretation, just stroking over and over without relathering. In other words you lather up your face and, for example, are shaving your chin. You shave in multiple directions just hacking away trying to get every hair. The lather is shaved away after a few strokes but you keep going anyway. That is wrong. So the instruction is "don't do that" but rather go for hair reduction. Shave in one direction then "re-lather" and shave again in another direction, and so on. It's a way to caution you against multi stroking over and over trying to get everything in one shot.


That's my take.

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So its about reducing the numbers of hair and not about reducing the length of the hair in your opinion. With that logic, I should be able to start off against the grain with the same results as a with the grain pass (irritation speaking). I understand the logic there (I think) but I don't think my neck and I would be on speaking terms for a few days if I tried that. I'm willing to give it a shot tomorrow. Ill start off against the grain on my neck and see how it goes. If it gets too uncomfortable, Ill just stop.

Badger Bill said:

I'm not an expert at the theory of reduction :-D...... but, here's my perspective on it. Most people can't get a very smooth result after a single pass (for a whole array of reasons).... if it's done gently and properly. In order to get a single pass to be smooth, you have to scrape more, use more pressure, go over spots more than once, etc. etc...... this is what causes BIG PROBLEMS.

Therefore, at least for me, multiple passes is a way of making sure that you don't go over the same spot twice with no lather and taking the pressure off of getting a BBS shave on the first pass. That way you can relax and go easier, be more gentle, and get better results.

There's probably also some aspect to the hair tugging and catching on the blade if it's too long to start with, but I don't know the mechanics of that....

-Badger Bill

Click to expand...

Think you nailed it! Makes sense.