Indeed, and it's a bit of an anomaly because of that. I'm giving the AS a trial right now. Most of the safety bar razors are oriented toward the steeper angles, but the AS's shaveable range is more shallow (and very narrow because of so little blade exposure). It's a lot like an open comb in geometry, but with a safety bar.
Low Angle Shaving, Illustrated
- Thread starter woodfluter
- Start date
I just tried this method with a 1924 Everready and a Treet. While it was a pleasant sensation to not really have to concentrate on the angle, it made for many more passes. I did however, like this method when going ATG on my neck, where burn is almost always inevitable. No burn today. I guess the adjustment of angle mimics conventional adjustables.
I tried it this AM and it will take a little getting used to.
- Thread starter
- #24
It's nice to hear that I'm not the only person doing this - thought maybe I was for a while!
To partially answer some questions:
Yes, you can do this with various kinds of DEs, but there are limitations and some work better than others. As James noted, those with a flatter head cap allow for a lower angle with proportionally less pressure involved than those with a high-domed cap. I've found that SEs like the Gem 1912 and Micromatics are the easiest for this technique. But I used the Senator this morning and got an equally good shave but requiring a bit more attention, so it all depends.
One caution I didn't mention has to do with TTOs vs the two and three piece designs (or some of them at least). You know the little extensions on the end of a DE, the "tabs" that extend out the ends beyond the business part? At a high shaving angle, they clear your face nicely. At a low angle, with some TTOs, the corners of the tabs extend far enough beyond the cap to dig into the side of your face if you're not especially careful. It won't cut you but it'll be irritating.
I never noticed a problem with low-angle shaving when using NEWs, but did with the Old Type, New Improved and TTOs. I pulled out the calipers today and discovered why: Cap Length on Gillette TTOs & Old Type = 40.25mm, on N.I. = 39.8mm, but on short or long comb NEW = 41.0mm. It doesn't sound like a lot, but that apparently is just enough to keep the corners from touching my skin.
Not an issue with SEs at all of course, and not a huge deal - I used a TTO this morning, but had to take more care.
James pointed out the adjustables mostly change the blade gap, and this has less influence when shaving at a low angle. Indeed so. That's probably why I noticed very little difference with setting changes on my SA - and would probably see none now.
Also, James noted the lower shaving angle design for SEs. Gillette designed their DEs for a "no pressure" shaving angle of around 25 degrees, give or take. Except for the original design, the Old Type whose geometry is closer to SEs. The Micromatics, in contrast, seem to be designed for a no-pressure angle of around 15 degrees.
Now, with pressure applied to push the head a bit into the skin and bring whiskers up to meet the blade, you can successfully shave at much lower angles than 25 degrees with a DE. I do that routinely now. But you need less pressure with an SE for the same shaving angle. If you're careful with maintaining the low angle, it's all OK; but if you are less experienced and screw up by tilting the razor higher, you'll get in trouble faster with the DE - because there's more pressure involved.
So when learning to do this, if you're on the somewhat greener side or feel less coordinated, it might be safer to start with an SE. Or so I think.
Cheers,
- Bill
To partially answer some questions:
Yes, you can do this with various kinds of DEs, but there are limitations and some work better than others. As James noted, those with a flatter head cap allow for a lower angle with proportionally less pressure involved than those with a high-domed cap. I've found that SEs like the Gem 1912 and Micromatics are the easiest for this technique. But I used the Senator this morning and got an equally good shave but requiring a bit more attention, so it all depends.
One caution I didn't mention has to do with TTOs vs the two and three piece designs (or some of them at least). You know the little extensions on the end of a DE, the "tabs" that extend out the ends beyond the business part? At a high shaving angle, they clear your face nicely. At a low angle, with some TTOs, the corners of the tabs extend far enough beyond the cap to dig into the side of your face if you're not especially careful. It won't cut you but it'll be irritating.
I never noticed a problem with low-angle shaving when using NEWs, but did with the Old Type, New Improved and TTOs. I pulled out the calipers today and discovered why: Cap Length on Gillette TTOs & Old Type = 40.25mm, on N.I. = 39.8mm, but on short or long comb NEW = 41.0mm. It doesn't sound like a lot, but that apparently is just enough to keep the corners from touching my skin.
Not an issue with SEs at all of course, and not a huge deal - I used a TTO this morning, but had to take more care.
James pointed out the adjustables mostly change the blade gap, and this has less influence when shaving at a low angle. Indeed so. That's probably why I noticed very little difference with setting changes on my SA - and would probably see none now.
Also, James noted the lower shaving angle design for SEs. Gillette designed their DEs for a "no pressure" shaving angle of around 25 degrees, give or take. Except for the original design, the Old Type whose geometry is closer to SEs. The Micromatics, in contrast, seem to be designed for a no-pressure angle of around 15 degrees.
Now, with pressure applied to push the head a bit into the skin and bring whiskers up to meet the blade, you can successfully shave at much lower angles than 25 degrees with a DE. I do that routinely now. But you need less pressure with an SE for the same shaving angle. If you're careful with maintaining the low angle, it's all OK; but if you are less experienced and screw up by tilting the razor higher, you'll get in trouble faster with the DE - because there's more pressure involved.
So when learning to do this, if you're on the somewhat greener side or feel less coordinated, it might be safer to start with an SE. Or so I think.
Cheers,
- Bill
Interesting. I guess this is what I was kind of getting at in my newbie experience/review of the R41. I feel like the thinner cap makes a very shallow angle much more possible than with my HD. Maybe I accidentally did something right!
All great points, Bill. I think what you said about the intrinsic "no pressure" shave angle of most Gillette DE's (and many other modern DE's that share similar geometry), is the main reason I've gravitated toward open combs, and in particular the R41. I can shave at low blade angles, which for my beard gives me much better "blade bite" on my lay-down hairs, yet not need to apply much pressure to keep the blade in contact with my skin. The SE's have done well for me too, although I'm not as happy with the blade choices there, so they aren't really my go-to razors.
I really need to try the Gillette OC TTO's as well. I've got a Sheraton that I haven't shaved with yet...maybe this evening.
I really need to try the Gillette OC TTO's as well. I've got a Sheraton that I haven't shaved with yet...maybe this evening.
Yeah, I find it the natural way to use any open combed, high exposure razor. It's funny though, I think many more are using steep angles on the R41. I did a poll ( a very unsuccessful one 
) a while back, and I think it was mostly folks using it on the steep side. It works in that way of course, it's just a very different shaving experience for me. It's also very audible, as you're basically strumming the blade like a guitar with your facial hairs .
Here's that Poll I did..not many respondents though...
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/273311-What-blade-angle-to-do-you-use-with-your-2011-R41
) a while back, and I think it was mostly folks using it on the steep side. It works in that way of course, it's just a very different shaving experience for me. It's also very audible, as you're basically strumming the blade like a guitar with your facial hairs .Here's that Poll I did..not many respondents though...
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/273311-What-blade-angle-to-do-you-use-with-your-2011-R41
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Makes perfect sense to me. Consider the following diagram. At shallow angles, the force applied by the hair to the blade edge (force is horizontal, in the image) pushes into solid metal behind the edge. The edge may suffer wear, but that's all.
At steeper blade angles (anything over 7.5°, assuming a 15° edge) the blade edge has NO metal immediately behind it. It will probably get rolled.
It's fairly self-evident when you think about it. Basic mechanics.
(Click image for bigger, clearer version.)
Note that even when flat, the blade can cut to within a half blade thickness, even before skin flex is taken into account.
In practice there'll be no difference in closeness between the 3 options; though the steep angle will help the blade dig in. (To both skin and hair!)
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When the talk is about irritation and problems with blade angle, I always say 'slice, don't scrape or rake'. Find the angle range for the particular razor and use the lowest possible. Combined with a consistent glide and (lack of) pressure you can do as many passes as necessary to mow all the stubble. It's particularly sensible with Old Type, New l/c, Merkur and Muhle old OC heads.
- Thread starter
- #30
Ray -
Excellent points and outstanding illustration! Thank you.
I knew the mechanics behind it of course, and expected that the working part was getting rolled or even micro-chipped at the extreme edge when the angle is rather steep. What astonished me was the dramatic change in blade life accompanying a difference of, oh I dunno, maybe 15 degrees?
The analogy I thought of was using one of my very sharp knives as a paint scraper. That would dull it very rapidly, while the edge will hold up through a lot of slicing through wood or other materials. With a knife that's been used for scraping something, you can feel the rolled part with your fingernail if you draw it toward the edge. It catches. And can sometimes be restored, to a degree, by stropping.
And razor blades are beveled at a far, far more acute angle than the ~20 degrees to each side I use with most of my knives. So it wouldn't take a lot to damage that...even hairs!
- Bill
Excellent points and outstanding illustration! Thank you.
I knew the mechanics behind it of course, and expected that the working part was getting rolled or even micro-chipped at the extreme edge when the angle is rather steep. What astonished me was the dramatic change in blade life accompanying a difference of, oh I dunno, maybe 15 degrees?
The analogy I thought of was using one of my very sharp knives as a paint scraper. That would dull it very rapidly, while the edge will hold up through a lot of slicing through wood or other materials. With a knife that's been used for scraping something, you can feel the rolled part with your fingernail if you draw it toward the edge. It catches. And can sometimes be restored, to a degree, by stropping.
And razor blades are beveled at a far, far more acute angle than the ~20 degrees to each side I use with most of my knives. So it wouldn't take a lot to damage that...even hairs!
- Bill
On Saturday I picked up a fat handled Gillette Tech with, I later found out, triangular slots. I tried this technique with great success on Sunday and really worked it this morning. The clean up pass I find I can pull the skin taught, get a low angle approach and apply pressure and it seems that there is a wave of skin leading the razor that lays the whiskers up just right on the razor. I will continue to experiment with this style of shaving. This mornings shave was great.
I tried this today with the 1912, I already do this for under the chin and along the jaw line, but decided to try it on the rest of the face. Didn't really work too well, shave was pretty rough. Half way through I switched to the Tech, and it worked wonderfully with this technique. I don't think the shave was any smoother than I'd normally get with a tech, but it did work, had 0 irritation, and if I really can get 10 shaves out of a blade like this I'll keep at it.
I tried this method today out of pure curiosity using an OCMM. It didn't go well at all. The shave was nowhere near as close as I normally get & I had a ton of irritation show up hours later. It wasn't apparent initially but came on with a vengeance later on requiring a second application of some quick healing Krampert's Finest bay rum. I will not be trying this again.
I've been experimenting with this for the past several days with my GEM MicroMatic. I am quite impressed, and pleased, at how nice a share I've gotten by laying the head of the razor flat against my skin. I guess those folks at GEM actually knew what they were talking about when they suggested this technique in the instructions that accompanied their razors!
I have been working on this technique for a couple of weeks now. Having very good but not great results. I do get some nicks. The TECH seems to work well with this technique. Surprisingly, Astra SP's don't seem to work as well as Personna's for me (YMMV).
A shallow angle has mostly been intuitive for me,I get at least week's worth of shaves out of a Feather.My open combs and Weber seem to fit my shaving style much better than any of my TTO's...I wonder if my style of shaving runs counter to what is best with a TTO in hand.
bump.
I was going to write about this but then found the thread, which has everything I wanted to say.
For anyone dealing with razor burn this is worth a try.
I was going to write about this but then found the thread, which has everything I wanted to say.
For anyone dealing with razor burn this is worth a try.
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Great thread. Thanks for sharing (and instructing me).
I've tried this the past 2 days and I'm not having great luck with it.
The hair on my cheeks has always been easy to shave off. With this method it still is. But all the other hair on my face is fairly stubborn, and different area require I shave them differently. Some areas need a XTG and some need ATG while others require a combination.
The toughest hair on my face is my chin and along the jawline. Shaving using this new technique resulted in almost no hair being removed on either area. My mustache area also got hacked up a bit under the nose.
I like the idea of this, so I am wondering if I'm doing some thing(s) wrong or if it's just a matter of practice. Or maybe I need to go back to my regular way of shaving.
The hair on my cheeks has always been easy to shave off. With this method it still is. But all the other hair on my face is fairly stubborn, and different area require I shave them differently. Some areas need a XTG and some need ATG while others require a combination.
The toughest hair on my face is my chin and along the jawline. Shaving using this new technique resulted in almost no hair being removed on either area. My mustache area also got hacked up a bit under the nose.
I like the idea of this, so I am wondering if I'm doing some thing(s) wrong or if it's just a matter of practice. Or maybe I need to go back to my regular way of shaving.
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