First hone setup?

noahpictures said:

Razor: Boker 20th Century 5/8 full hollow. Prior to honing the razor would shave some arm hair and couldn't pass the HHT. I went through the progression:

6 micron (brown) ~ 4K grit: 30 laps
3 micron (purple) ~ 8K grit: 30 laps
1 micron (green) ~ 16K grit: 40 laps
0.3 micron (white) ~ 30K grit: 50 laps. Cut a piece of paper slightly smaller than the film, put it on lapping plate, poured a bit of water and then put the film on top of the paper.

Didn't get a lot of feedback. 0.3 micron gave me the most feedback. Razor didn't pass the hanging hair test but could shave arm hair.

CrOX on balsa: 60 laps. Barley passed the HHT.
Iron Oxide on balsa: 40 laps. Slightly better.
Stropped on leather 60 laps.
Shaved in the morning; the edge felt very smooth and forgiving but no sharp enough.

I don't know what I am doing wrong. I am using very light pressure, maybe I need to increase it.

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Did you try to raise a burr, or try the sharpie test? If you have a good bevel, two laps on 1u should leave no ink on the edge with the sharpie test. It sounds like you are not getting your edge past the 4k stage, maybe not even up to it. Don't worry... light pressure is good. The weight of the razor and about half a finger weight is fine. Also, examine the bevel under a magnifying glass in very bright light. As you tip and turn the razor, you should see a perfectly flat bevel all the way out to the edge, with no change in the angle needed to keep the reflection the same all the way out. TNT might be of some value, too. Shaving arm hair is almost worthless, because even your kitchen knives or your pocketknife should do that.

If it won't pass the sharpie test, you need to get some coarser medium and set that bevel properly. If there is some reason why you can't get some 1k grit wet/dry paper or a nice wide 1k stone or some 12u film, you could try more (LOTS more) laps on the 6u film. You should feel a sort of suction between the blade and film once that stage has done its job. If you don't feel it, don't stop. It might take a couple hundred laps if the edge has significant rounding. Maybe even more. After you feel the draw increase due to suction, give it another dozen laps and start your progression. You WILL feel a subtle difference when it is time to move up a grit.

When you have all the i's crossed and t's dotted, and everything is coming together for you, you will probably find the .3u film actually creates an edge that is TOO sharp. Obviously, something is amiss. I believe it is lack of a proper flat and true bevel. If your bevel is good, then 30 to 40 laps per stage should give a sharp edge.

Just a couple of questions to add. I am starting to consider hones as my sight-unseen is definitely becoming whipped.

Lee Valley Tools (a fine wood-working store) where I live has both Silicon and diamond lapping films. In the silicon they have 15, 5 & 0.5 microns. In the diamond they have 15,3,0.5 & 0.1 microns. The Silicon are 8.5" x 11" (@ $2.20/sheet) and the diamond is 3" x 6" (@ $6.20/sheet). I was thinking to get 15,5 and 0.5 in the Silicon and 3 in the diamond. Would this be a good set-up ?

The other question is, they also have 12" x 12" sheets of 1/4" and 3/8" polycarbonite. Would this work well as a lapping plate or would it eventially get scratched by the metal and grit coming off in the honing process ?

For the lapping plate go to your local big box and select a polished stone tile. Ask them to cut it 4 inches wide. It will be the most effective possible choice in cost and function. It should set you back less than $5, and you can have 3 for one price (us and cn are not that far apart in cash value) I Googled and you have Home Depot there.

Phil

Grips said:

Just a couple of questions to add. I am starting to consider hones as my sight-unseen is definitely becoming whipped.

Lee Valley Tools (a fine wood-working store) where I live has both Silicon and diamond lapping films. In the silicon they have 15, 5 & 0.5 microns. In the diamond they have 15,3,0.5 & 0.1 microns. The Silicon are 8.5" x 11" (@ $2.20/sheet) and the diamond is 3" x 6" (@ $6.20/sheet). I was thinking to get 15,5 and 0.5 in the Silicon and 3 in the diamond. Would this be a good set-up ?

The other question is, they also have 12" x 12" sheets of 1/4" and 3/8" polycarbonite. Would this work well as a lapping plate or would it eventially get scratched by the metal and grit coming off in the honing process ?

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You want some 1u for finishing. .5u is a bit too fine. You will certainly have to mellow the edge with CrOx on a pasted strop after .5u film. Also, it is a REALLY big jump going from 5u to .5u, sort of like going from a 4k Norton to a 30k Shapton in one leap. The 15u would work for setting a bevel, and you could jump from 15u straight to 5u. You need to finish on 1u. You need an intermediary stage between 5u and 1u, and 3u is just the thing. If your supplier has neither 1u nor 3u, you need a different supplier. Plus, their prices are not so hot.

OOps I see they have 3u, but it is diamond, and only 3" x 6". Price is double what it should cost. It would work, but it is so much nicer to have a big honing surface! An 8-1/2" x 11" sheet cut lengthwise in three, or a 9" x 13" sheet cut crossways into four, works out pretty good. R.S. Hughes/Amazon is a better choice for single sheets. ThorLabs is better if you don't mind packs of 10.

I would stick with glass or polished marble or polished granite for the lapping plate. Not only will plastic get scratched and get particles embedded in it, but it is flexible. You want your flat lapping plate to stay flat. You could maybe glue some 3/8" to some 3/4" plywood for added rigidity and stability, but still you would have the relatively soft polycarbonate to contend with. Glass or stone is the way to go, IMHO, unless you just want to give the concept a quick trial run. The marble tile I got from Hone Depot only cost me five bucks. A stone sink cutout or scrap of heavy window glass might even be had for free.

It would be interesting to see how well the polycarbonate performs as a bench strop with diamond paste, though. Not CrOx... I don't think it will embed into the plastic as easily as diamond.

MajorBurnz said:

What's wrong is (almost) certainly bevel setting. Your progression should work if the bevel is set.

I razor can sometimes cut hair even if the bevel is not set. Use a marker on the edge. Let it dry, and then do 5 light strokes on the 1 micron film.

Look at the edge under magnification (and in good light) - you should see no sign of the marker. If you do see anything, go back to the 6 micron film for a while, then do the marker test again.

Also remember that you can use water on 3 M lapping film - it does help.

Finally, remember that it takes time to figure out how to hone. Don't get discouraged. Things will improve.

Click to expand...

Slash McCoy said:

Did you try to raise a burr, or try the sharpie test? If you have a good bevel, two laps on 1u should leave no ink on the edge with the sharpie test. It sounds like you are not getting your edge past the 4k stage, maybe not even up to it. Don't worry... light pressure is good. The weight of the razor and about half a finger weight is fine. Also, examine the bevel under a magnifying glass in very bright light. As you tip and turn the razor, you should see a perfectly flat bevel all the way out to the edge, with no change in the angle needed to keep the reflection the same all the way out. TNT might be of some value, too. Shaving arm hair is almost worthless, because even your kitchen knives or your pocketknife should do that.

If it won't pass the sharpie test, you need to get some coarser medium and set that bevel properly. If there is some reason why you can't get some 1k grit wet/dry paper or a nice wide 1k stone or some 12u film, you could try more (LOTS more) laps on the 6u film. You should feel a sort of suction between the blade and film once that stage has done its job. If you don't feel it, don't stop. It might take a couple hundred laps if the edge has significant rounding. Maybe even more. After you feel the draw increase due to suction, give it another dozen laps and start your progression. You WILL feel a subtle difference when it is time to move up a grit.

When you have all the i's crossed and t's dotted, and everything is coming together for you, you will probably find the .3u film actually creates an edge that is TOO sharp. Obviously, something is amiss. I believe it is lack of a proper flat and true bevel. If your bevel is good, then 30 to 40 laps per stage should give a sharp edge.

Click to expand...

The razors didn't pass the sharpie marker test.

Boker 5/8 Full Hollow

12 micron ~ 1000 grit: 60 laps
6 micron ~ 4K grit: 50
3 micron ~ 8K grit: 40
1 micron ~ 16K: 40
0.3 micron ~ 30K 40

The razor passed the HHT test. I didn't do the Sharpie marker test. I moved on to the C-Mon 5/8 Full Hollow which had no or little hone wear. The blade wouldn't cut any hair. I did the Sharpie marker test and it didn't pass. I honed it this way:

12µ: 100 laps (lots of feedback during the first 20 laps)
6µ: 50 laps
3µ: 50 laps
1µ:40 laps
.3µ: 40 laps

Shaved hair (arm and HHT) only on the upper 1/3 of the blade (point). Did the sharpie maker test and didn't pass. Honed it again the same manner as above. Same exact results. After the marker test I noticed one side of the blade the bevel was uniformed and shiny (no marker paint), the other side of the blade's edge was still black from the marker except the top 1/3 where it was nice and shiny.

Possible mistakes:
1. I shouldn't have moved on from the 12µ until the bevel was set properly. I could have saved myself a lot of time and frustration.
2. I might be honing incorrectly. My lapping plate is a piece of 8x12 inch marble set on a counter. I don't think I have enough elbow room (right side). Next time I will elevate lapping plate evenly on some towels or change locations to order to have more elbow room.

Those are the only reasons that I can think of for not setting the bevel correctly.

Things learned:
1. Setting the bevel properly is most of the work and is the foundation of honing.
2. Respect the progression. It doesn't make sense to go from 0.3 micron film to CrOX (0.5 micron).

Please feel free to correct me on anything.

Thanks for the replies gentlemen. Much appreciated.

noahpictures said:

The razors didn't pass the sharpie marker test.

Boker 5/8 Full Hollow

12 micron ~ 1000 grit: 60 laps
6 micron ~ 4K grit: 50
3 micron ~ 8K grit: 40
1 micron ~ 16K: 40
0.3 micron ~ 30K 40

The razor passed the HHT test. I didn't do the Sharpie marker test. I moved on to the C-Mon 5/8 Full Hollow which had no or little hone wear. The blade wouldn't cut any hair. I did the Sharpie marker test and it didn't pass. I honed it this way:

12µ: 100 laps (lots of feedback during the first 20 laps)
6µ: 50 laps
3µ: 50 laps
1µ:40 laps
.3µ: 40 laps

Shaved hair (arm and HHT) only on the upper 1/3 of the blade (point). Did the sharpie maker test and didn't pass. Honed it again the same manner as above. Same exact results. After the marker test I noticed one side of the blade the bevel was uniformed and shiny (no marker paint), the other side of the blade's edge was still black from the marker except the top 1/3 where it was nice and shiny.

Possible mistakes:
1. I shouldn't have moved on from the 12µ until the bevel was set properly. I could have saved myself a lot of time and frustration.
2. I might be honing incorrectly. My lapping plate is a piece of 8x12 inch marble set on a counter. I don't think I have enough elbow room (right side). Next time I will elevate lapping plate evenly on some towels or change locations to order to have more elbow room.

Those are the only reasons that I can think of for not setting the bevel correctly.

Things learned:
1. Setting the bevel properly is most of the work and is the foundation of honing.
2. Respect the progression. It doesn't make sense to go from 0.3 micron film to CrOX (0.5 micron).

Please feel free to correct me on anything.

Click to expand...

You have to stay on your bevel setter until it DOES pass the sharpie test. It is a test for a complete, flat bevel, after all. If it fails, then there is no complete, flat bevel. You can't build an edge without a good bevel as the foundation. No step in your progression should be started, until you have achieved your goals with the previous step.

Make sure you are not letting a shoulder or stabilizer bear on the hone. That would elevate the heel from the hone. Since you have a razor that holds ink on one side of the bevel out to 2/3 the way to the point, it is possible that your heel is elevated on that side by an irregularity or a twisted blade or previous bad honing.

The fast way to do this, with a minimum of diddling around, is to hone only one side until you raise a burr down the entire edge, then hone the other side the same number of strokes, or more if you don't get a full length burr on the other side. Once you have done this with good (not just "good enough") results, go to alternating laps, i.e. both sides of the razor, back and forth. Edge always leading, of course. 30 laps should get rid of that final burr and leave you with a very good bevel IF you didn't give up too early. Or you can continue the way you are doing, but remember you must not stop until your bevel is set. You can't "almost" get it, or "partially" get it. That won't do. Set that bevel properly, and everything else should fall right into place.

Yes, actually, it DOES make sense to go from .3u film to .5u CrOx. You will see this, once you get your bevel set so that the .3u film can do its job and act on the actual shaving edge. The .3u film leaves a very harsh edge with most razors. The .5u CrOx tames it a bit, leaving a smoother, more comfortable edge. You don't see that yet because you don't have an edge yet. You have a sometimes one-sided, sometimes rounded edge, which isn't an edge at all. Trust me... if you do this right, the .3u edge will be scary. You will probably do like all the rest of us, and stop at 1u after you get optimum sharpness a couple of times with the .3u and try to shave with it. 1u leaves a very sharp edge if you complete each step properly before advancing. Even the 1u can be a touch harsh on some blades, and stropping on CrOx will smooth it out nicely. Remember, the 1u is roughly equivelant to a 12k Naniwa, or maybe a bit finer. Nobody will dispute that a properly set up edge finished on a 12k Nani is a very sharp shaving edge. So it should be VERY obvious to you that your strategy of advancing in your progression before the razor is ready to progress, is not working. It should also be obvious that even if you are doing everything right, the .3u film is just not needed, and generally is not even desirable.

For now, forget about the .3u. Your edges are not ready to take advantage of that grade of film.
For now, forget about the 1u. Your edges are not ready to take advantage of that grade of film, either.
For now, forget about the 3u. Your edges are not ready to take advantage of that grade of film.
For now, forget about the 6u. Your edges are not ready to take advantage of that grade of film. Without completing the bevel setting step, it does no good to move on. It only wastes your time and gives you a bit of exercise, and frustration.

Concentrate on getting a good bevel. It does NO GOOD to try to go further, until you have done that. Put on a fresh piece of 12u, wet it down, and hone up a burr on both sides. Don't settle for less than a good, solid, perfectly flat, full length bevel. You will NOT get a good edge until you realize this truth and put it to work for you. I say again: You will NOT get a good edge until you realize this truth and put it to work for you. I would say it again, but if twice isn't enough, then thrice isn't enough, either.

If you are not applying water to the top of the film, then do so. A few fat drops will help increase the cutting action of the film, and also make it last longer.

We WILL get you through this, Noah. Just like joining the French Foreign Legion when you don't speak French. Don't worry. They will beat it into you. Same here. And then, when you cut yourself to the bone on that semi mythical scary edge because you never imagined an edge could be that sharp and totally did not expect it, you will thank us for browbeating you as you bleed all over your keyboard. BOO-yah! No time to feel the pain! SET THAT BEVEL! DO IT, SOLDIER! LET'S SEE YOUR WAR FACE! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Kentos has great advice. Pick a system and run with it. Learn it. Stay off the boards reading suggestions and getting HAD. It will screw up your game. Find someone whose edges you like and perhaps send them your work to critique.

For the money, it'll be hard.
1K King has been suggested as has the Norton 4/8k. You may also look at Naniwa 1k Not the Chosera (which is darn nice but more expensive). You'll want a finisher, though you CAN finish off 8k it's not the most comfortable IMO. Look at C12K/ PHIG stones. They are around $20. most expensive will be your 4/8, I think.

However, if you can come up with a little more, I'd look at strongly at the Chosera 1k for your bevel setter. Your bevel setting is the most important aspect of honing, so start with the best you can.

Reading in a little more to this long thread I see you're not passing marker test. Perhaps you're lifting your razor on the hone. Do you have a way to video yourself honing?

I was taking a peek at the films they have at Amazon and I saw types F, P and C. Do those "types" make any difference when honing razors, or are they there for the electronic industry ?

TBH, I don't know. I don't pay attention to that. I just select my sheet size/type, abrasive, grit size, and plain back. But I no longer get mine on amazon. I get mine from ThorLabs now.

Thanks Slash. Hope I'm not high-jacking your thread noah.

Hoping my lapping film set will arrive in the mail tomorrow. If not, early next week. Thanks for the updates Noah! This thread has really delivered!

Grips said:

Thanks Slash. Hope I'm not high-jacking your thread noah.

Click to expand...

Not at all; the thread is about honing for the first time. Thanks to B&B we are all trying to help each other out one way or another.

PaqDan said:

Hoping my lapping film set will arrive in the mail tomorrow. If not, early next week. Thanks for the updates Noah! This thread has really delivered!

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Let us know about your first attempt at honing.

I am getting ready to head down the same road so I am glad you started this thread Noah.

There are two kinds of people, those who hone and those who don't

Sorry I had to try Mr. Ramirez!

plpenn said:

I am getting ready to head down the same road so I am glad you started this thread Noah.

There are two kinds of people, those who hone and those who don't

Sorry I had to try Mr. Ramirez!

Click to expand...

Right on!

Razor: C-Mon 5/8 Full Hollow. The blade wouldn't cut any hair. I did the Sharpie marker test and it didn't pass. I could have waited to get some wet/dry sandpaper (I ordered a pack that has 220, 400, 800, 1000 grit sheets) and make things easier but I really wanted to shave with this razor so I honed it this way using some water on film:

12µ: countless laps until it passed the marker test. Plus 30 laps. Could easily shave arm hair.
6µ: 30 laps
3µ: 30 laps
1µ:30 laps
.3µ (with paper underneath): 30 laps (passed the hanging hair test)
CrOX (balsa) 0.5µ: 20 laps
Iron Oxide (balsa) 0.1µ: 20 laps
40 strokes? or laps? on leather (passed HHT easily)

I also made sure that I had plenty of elbow room. Elevated the plating glass by setting it on top of an old tool box. While setting the bevel I switched hands every 30 laps to determine if it made a difference. I think it did.

I had a great shave this morning. It was very gratifying to shave with a razor that I honed myself.

Thanks Slash!

Awesome man ! I'm in the process of getting my own kit together and am learning a ton from this thread. Looking forward to (hopefully) feeling the same sense of accomplishment.

Awesome!

noahpictures said:

Razor: C-Mon 5/8 Full Hollow. The blade wouldn't cut any hair. I did the Sharpie marker test and it didn't pass. I could have waited to get some wet/dry sandpaper (I ordered a pack that has 220, 400, 800, 1000 grit sheets) and make things easier but I really wanted to shave with this razor so I honed it this way using some water on film:

12µ: countless laps until it passed the marker test. Plus 30 laps. Could easily shave arm hair.
6µ: 30 laps
3µ: 30 laps
1µ:30 laps
.3µ (with paper underneath): 30 laps (passed the hanging hair test)
CrOX (balsa) 0.5µ: 20 laps
Iron Oxide (balsa) 0.1µ: 20 laps
40 strokes? or laps? on leather (passed HHT easily)

I also made sure that I had plenty of elbow room. Elevated the plating glass by setting it on top of an old tool box. While setting the bevel I switched hands every 30 laps to determine if it made a difference. I think it did.

I had a great shave this morning. It was very gratifying to shave with a razor that I honed myself.

Thanks Slash!

Click to expand...

BRAVO! <hands clapping, glass raised in toast> Now you are on the right track! I knew you could do it! Welcome to the dark side, young honemeister apprentice! Indeed, there is great satisfaction in taking a blunt piece of steel and transforming it into an effortless shaver, and then using it, leaving nothing but silky smooth skin behind. Did you do an ordinary single pass rush job, or did you go the whole enchilada?

Yes, I think I agree with you. Your problem was probably with your hand elevating the heel of the razor on the return stroke, or maybe on the away stroke. Switching hands was good thinking, and gave you the indication that you needed. I will add that to my own book of tricks. You might try holding the lapping plate loosely in your free hand, and not letting it touch you or any thing except that hand, and the blade. This allows the blade and film to mate up on their own, find their own level. This works well when you have a razor to hone that does not need any geometry correction. Sometimes you need your hone to sit solidly, so you can force the blade level and correct it. Most of the time, letting the hone and blade seek their own alignment will be easier and faster. But this is a personal thing and not written in stone anywhere.

In time you will probably drop the red paste, and the .3u film because you will be getting the edge you want from 1u and CrOx. When that happens, you will have truly arrived. So, even though you have passed a major milestone, you still have some more traveling to look forward to on your honing journey. But it gets easier from this point. And even now, your new honing skills are of great practical use, as well as a source of pride and satisfaction. You have snatched the pebble from my hand. From OUR hands. Soon, you will be passing honing wisdom down to a new generation of eager disciples.