- Thread starter
- #101
Thanks. My normal 4 pass shave.
First hone setup?
- Thread starter noahpictures
- Start date
Thanks. My normal 4 pass shave.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
BTW, Hone Depot carries 1k wet/dry, and also the LocTite spray adhesive, which is handy for working with the sandpaper, and acetone, which is great for cleaning up glue residue from your lapping plate prior to switching to film. Most auto parts stores will also have wet/dry paper.
What a great thread! I'm wanting to get into Str8's and have three good razors which need some work to get to where they don't yank the epidermis off my skull. Trouble is I'm so new at this that I'm totally intimidated - and not a little confused with all the shop talk - as well as not wanting to spend a king's ransom on stones and strops to get started. This looks like a great way to at least try to become a reasonable facsimile of someone who knows that the heck he's doing.
To all, especially Slash, thanks for an informative discussion.
A quick question: Do you think this technique (lapping film and marble base) can apply to putting a fine edge on a Rolls Razor blade, too?
To all, especially Slash, thanks for an informative discussion.
A quick question: Do you think this technique (lapping film and marble base) can apply to putting a fine edge on a Rolls Razor blade, too?
Yes, this is the easiest honing method I have used to date. I am sure if you have a blade holder for a Rolls razor blade then you can easily hone it. If you lack a blade holder you will have to devise one that is suitable and provides a proper honing angle. This should be fairly easy as the blade holder is essentially a tube of a specified diameter with a split in it that holds the blade firmly.
If I had to devise one I would look into getting a larger roll pin and opening the split up slightly as my first course of action, but I don't know if this will be suitable.
Phil
If I had to devise one I would look into getting a larger roll pin and opening the split up slightly as my first course of action, but I don't know if this will be suitable.
Phil
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Actually, yes. It should work quite well. Oh, see this thread: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/263824-Rollin-wit-da-Rolls!-A-honing-solution? and do a search for other threads with the keywords "rolls" and "honing" or "hone". In the aforementioned thread, I talk about a device I made that in my humility I call the "Slash Tool". It facilitates honing and stropping a Rolls blade out of the case. A Rolls blade honed out of case, with the spine used as a bevel guide, achieves a much higher level of sharpness than the same blade honed in the case. It really is a nice shave when honed and stropped like a straight razor. BTW, I remove the guard when honing and stropping, and leave it off for shaving, too. It pops right off.
As for your straights, I suggest you get one straight professionally honed, so you have a benchmark. Could you imagine learning how to paint with oils, by copying the Mona Lisa, when all you have seen of it is a poor photograph of it? You need to HAVE a sharp razor, and USE it, FEEL it, LOOK at it, before you know what you are looking for in way of honing results. There is sharp, and there is sharp. And then, there is SHAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!! A shave-ready blade serves as your reference point. Aside from that, yes, as you have probably surmised, lapping film is the easiest and quickest way for a beginner to get started with honing. Then, you can stick with films (No reason to change, from a practical standpoint, because no edge will beat a well executed film edge.) or you can move on to synthetic stones, or experience the magic of the coticule or Thuris or fine Jnats. But films are most likely to give you professional quality results the soonest. Results are consistent, once you are over the top of the learning curve, which is short. Cost, weight/bulk, all very small. Honing surface is as big as you could ever want. Shop talk is best deciphered by continuing to read similar threads, and posting questions.
I would learn to shave before trying to learn to hone. I know, it sounds like putting the cart before the horse. You want a sharp razor before trying to shave with it, right? But most would agree that it is best to start with a razor KNOWN to be shaving sharp, honed by a competent person who stands behind his work, so that when you shave for the first time, you won't have any question about whether the problem is with the razor or the user. Then, when you know how to shave, you can shave-test your first attempts at honing, and once again, know whether the problem is the razor or the user, or if everything is as it should be. So my advice is to send your razor out to be honed. Larry at www.whippeddog.com does this pretty cheap. Also, he sells sight-unseen razors, shave-ready, really really cheap, as in only a few bucks more than what some guys would charge to hone your razor for you. Another option, for the beginner, is his sight-unseen package for $49, which includes a shave-ready vintage razor and his Poor Man Strop Kit. That, a brush, mug, and soap, are all you need to get started. Then after you have learned the basics of shaving, try your hand at honing one of your other razors.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
I assume you mean containing the spine of the blade within the roll pin? That would work, after a fashion, but it would make a sort of obtuse bevel due to the thickness of the roll pin. I hone with the spine on the hone. The bevel is more acute, and I have never thought to measure it, but it seems to shave better. MUCH better. Partly, I am sure, to the progression and the control you have over pressure, but partly because I think it might be a better bevel angle.
Maybe I misunderstand how the rolls works, but I recall seeing a handle to hold the blade, is that only for stropping then?
Phil
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
The shaving handle of the Rolls is useless for stropping or honing. It is only for shaving. The case has a self contained honing and stropping system, and the shaving handle is not part of that system.
Got my film yesterday, honed the razor up today. Went from 5 micron, to 3 micron, to 1 micron and then to the Crox pasted balsa wood, followed by the iron oxide. Had my second straight razor shave. One pass with the grain, plus about half a pass against. Results on the right cheek were solid! Started getting a bit hoppy on the left side on my XTG and got a couple nicks. Having fun and staying in the game.
I think I want to get a razor that I know needs an edge and start from a 1k progression. Maybe a gold dollar? I guess this is how RAD starts. Whoops!
Thanks again Slash for the info and encouragement!
I think I want to get a razor that I know needs an edge and start from a 1k progression. Maybe a gold dollar? I guess this is how RAD starts. Whoops!
Thanks again Slash for the info and encouragement!
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
A Gold Dollar might be biting off more than you can chew. To perform well, a GD usually needs a bit of grinding here and there before honing, and the scales are pretty cheesy, too. There are a lot of threads on these razors, and you can read them and get an idea what you might have to do to get a GD up to shave-ready condition. I will say this, though: a properly set up GD is a pretty good shave, even ignoring the fact that it cost less than five bucks delivered. I happen to really like them and consider a well executed one superior to a Dovo Best, which is probably the most popular line of razors in the world.
I would look for a vintage blade on ebay. Look at the pics carefully, and avoid any blades where the pic is not distinct, or the edge shows visible nicks and chips and also any pitting at the edge. Usually it is simply a matter of grinding away on a coarse stone or paper until the damage is not there anymore, but occasionally a badly pitted blade has pits and corrosion extending all the way into the central plane of the blade, so that there is no possibility of honing down to a new and undamaged bevel. This is actually fairly rare, but it does occur. Another thing to watch for is the bevel on the spine. You should only see a regular, flat strip worn by the hone along the spine. If a blade has stabilizers, (sort of a mini shoulder about 3/16" further along the blade from the regular shoulder) watch for an irregular widening of the spine bevel at the root of the stabilizer, where it joins the spine. This will indicate a high spot or a spot resistant to honing on the spine. This area, when it bears on the honing surface, will elevate the heel of the razor as you hone, and prevent you from even setting a full length bevel. The cure is careful spot grinding and this takes a bit of practice and maybe a few more or less ruined blades along the way. Also watch out for blades where the edge has worn away and narrowed the blade everywhere except right at the tip of the shoulder, leaving a point at the heel. This would also call for grinding if you want a good, consistent edge. Look for edges that are fairly straight. A smiling edge can be a good shaver, but there is a little more skill involved in honing it. A frowning razor should be repaired on a coarse stone or paper so that the edge is straight. The best ones to rescue from ebay are shoulderless designs with nice straight edges and no major chips or pitting, and no cracks.
You could also pull the trigger on a brand new Giesens & Forsthoff from www.starshaving.com. It will need honing, beginning with an original bevel. These start at just under $60 and are decent blades. There should be NO repair issues. A new Dovo can be had for around $70 but I think the G&F will be the better shaver and have fewer issues. An entry level Revisor is in a similar price range. I would keep to the sub-$100 price range, at this stage, for sure.
Before starting in on a brand new razor, take one of your old ones and go all the way back to setting a bevel. You can spoil the existing edge by running it across a beer bottle. Not hard... just lightly to moderately, one stroke. Then begin, with setting a new bevel. Remember, don't move on until you have proven to yourself that you have a perfect bevel. The first time or two that you do this, I suggest the burr test. Hone just one side of the blade until you feel a burr on the opposite side, running all the way from end to end. You can also see it, in a bright light, especially under magnification. Then hone the burred side and raise the burr on the other side. If the burr was raised full length, it passed the test. Now you can hone normally, both sides in alternation, back and forth, for about 3 dozen laps to remove the burr, and your bevel is set. Continue your progression, and test-shave with it. When you have done all that, you are definitely ready to tackle a new razor. Now this extra bevel setting just for practice will eat up a bit of razor steel, so don't do it on a razor you really treasure unless it in fact needs a new bevel.
Once you are confident and competent at the entire process, it is likely that you will suffer a bit from RAD. $10 to $20 ebay rescues will give you plenty to work with. There are some real gems out there that basically just look like garbage but still have enough good steel left in them to make shavers. You might occasionally find something to work with at flea markets or antique stores, but often antique stores figure the older it looks, the more valuable it is, and want 4x what an old fixer upper is worth. They just don't understand the concept of someone taking one of these old razors, fixing it up, and actually shaving with it. Everyone knows they are just to look at, right?
When you have resorted to the dremel and long sessions of hand sanding and grinding to put a few razors into honable condition, it will be time to tackle a GD or two or a dozen. It can be a lot of work, bit quite enjoyable work too, to fix up a batch of Gold Dollars. If you mess up a couple, no big deal. You can use the ruined ones to open up the next box of GDs that you order. I just don't want to get your hopes up on getting professional results from these crudely made razors right off the bat. Of course, you could just go for it anyway. But it is best that you be knowledgeable enough to recognize what needs to be done, and what deficiencies in the razor or your work need correcting.
Yet another option is Larry's honing lessons. He will send you a raw vintage blade and you work on it and send it back. He critiques it, and maybe sends it back to you for more work. When the blade is up to professional standards, either through your work or his finishing touches, it goes in the "for sale" bucket and becomes one of the famous sight-unseen whippeddog razors. It teaches you, and saves work for him. Win/win. Of course, before you send it back, no reason not to give it a shave test.
You might also post your desire to buy a cheap fixer upper on BST. Or maybe some newbie will be open to the idea of you trading your shave-ready razor for his dull one, either temporarily so you can hone it and return it, or permanently. Occasionally we see a newbie who has bought a razor but doesn't know where to turn for getting it ready to use. Some will say this would be the blind leading the blind, but when you are getting good shaves from a razor that you already have and that you honed yourself, I think it is a do-able thing and you are ready to jump in, if you dare.
Maybe I'll do as you suggest and use the razor I have to set the bevel. In truth, the razor wasn't passing the HHT until I had finished the my progression (starting on 5 micron, finishing on the leather strop). Going back through Noah's posts, it seems like the best idea.
I finally got my kit together today and honed and shaved off the result tonight. My progression and results are in my journal (in the Straight Shave Clinic) if any care to read. Not great, but an OK first result that I hope to improve on.
I would like to give a big thank-you to noahpictures for starting this thread, and Slash for taking the time to write out detailed instructions so everything would be clear. As well, a thanks to the other posters for taking the time to help
I would like to give a big thank-you to noahpictures for starting this thread, and Slash for taking the time to write out detailed instructions so everything would be clear. As well, a thanks to the other posters for taking the time to help
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I got some 800 and 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper today from Autozone.
Dulled the razor edge on the side of a bottle and started on the 800 k.
Wouldn't pass the hht. Kept on going.
I did at least 100 strokes. Still no luck! Any thoughts? I did notice a bit of wear on the shoulder. Should I only be doing X strokes? Or straight up and straight back down.
I decided to take it all the way through the progression anyway - even though I knew in the back of my head it was probably a silly idea.
Maybe I should go to 600 grit sandpaper?
Dulled the razor edge on the side of a bottle and started on the 800 k.
Wouldn't pass the hht. Kept on going.
I did at least 100 strokes. Still no luck! Any thoughts? I did notice a bit of wear on the shoulder. Should I only be doing X strokes? Or straight up and straight back down.
I decided to take it all the way through the progression anyway - even though I knew in the back of my head it was probably a silly idea.
Maybe I should go to 600 grit sandpaper?
800 is crazy coarse. Are you repairing a chip? You won't get HHT on 800. I set bevel on 1000 (a Chosera stone actually) and get arm hair, but not HHT. You might get something other than violin (hht1) on 1000.
Coticule.be, which has been renamed, lists
hht1 violin (the hair strums)
hht2 lenthwise splitting (I rarely see this)
hht3 catch and pop
hht4 instant pop
hht5 silent cutting
I have shaved on HHT1 a lot with acceptable results, but hht3+ ("passing") is much nicer, and worth the effort.
Phil
Coticule.be, which has been renamed, lists
hht1 violin (the hair strums)
hht2 lenthwise splitting (I rarely see this)
hht3 catch and pop
hht4 instant pop
hht5 silent cutting
I have shaved on HHT1 a lot with acceptable results, but hht3+ ("passing") is much nicer, and worth the effort.
Phil
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
If it completely passes the sharpie test, you are at least close. The shoulder should not be riding on the honing surface. That will elevate the heel of the blade off the honing surface. Usually, 1000 grit is coarse enough for bevel setting, if there is no damage to the blade. So you started with 800... well, that's okay. You may have put a small amount of unneccessary wear on the blade. But since you should never have to set a bevel again, you can accept that, this once.
Another trick, but one that also adds a bit of wear to the blade, is to hone one side only until you detect a burr running the length of the blade. Then, hone the other side and see if you get a burr on the opposite side. If you get a full length burr on both sides, you have definitely reached far enough into the blade to have a good bevel. From there, hone normally, both sides in alternation, about 30 laps, to get rid of the final burr. Now you most definitely have a bevel. Again, you should only have to do this once. If you keep that razor for 50 years, you should only have to do that once. So, a bit of wear might be acceptable. It's all on you. Whatever you do, make it count for something if you do it. Get something out of it, in exchange for a couple years' worth of wear on the blade. Go until you have that full length burr, and DO NOT STOP UNTIL YOU DO. Otherwise, it is all for nothing. Zero return on your investment. If you are not willing to see it through, my advice is to not even begin. If you think you are doing something wrong that is preventing the formation of a burr along the entire edge, then maybe you ARE doing something wrong. Identify and correct it. Your brain is just as important a tool as your lapping plate. Think about what you might be doing to keep the edge off the hone.
HHT after 1k grit paper? No. Not likely. But it should grab your thumbnail anywhere along the blade. And if you look at the bevel under magnification and a bright light, you should see perfectly flat steel all the way out to the invisible edge. Use the reflection.
A good bevel is the foundation, and without a good bevel, getting a great edge is a hopeless bit of wishful thinking. May as well shave with your pocketknife. Get that bevel, and everything else will fall into place. Do it once, but do it right.
Another trick, but one that also adds a bit of wear to the blade, is to hone one side only until you detect a burr running the length of the blade. Then, hone the other side and see if you get a burr on the opposite side. If you get a full length burr on both sides, you have definitely reached far enough into the blade to have a good bevel. From there, hone normally, both sides in alternation, about 30 laps, to get rid of the final burr. Now you most definitely have a bevel. Again, you should only have to do this once. If you keep that razor for 50 years, you should only have to do that once. So, a bit of wear might be acceptable. It's all on you. Whatever you do, make it count for something if you do it. Get something out of it, in exchange for a couple years' worth of wear on the blade. Go until you have that full length burr, and DO NOT STOP UNTIL YOU DO. Otherwise, it is all for nothing. Zero return on your investment. If you are not willing to see it through, my advice is to not even begin. If you think you are doing something wrong that is preventing the formation of a burr along the entire edge, then maybe you ARE doing something wrong. Identify and correct it. Your brain is just as important a tool as your lapping plate. Think about what you might be doing to keep the edge off the hone.
HHT after 1k grit paper? No. Not likely. But it should grab your thumbnail anywhere along the blade. And if you look at the bevel under magnification and a bright light, you should see perfectly flat steel all the way out to the invisible edge. Use the reflection.
A good bevel is the foundation, and without a good bevel, getting a great edge is a hopeless bit of wishful thinking. May as well shave with your pocketknife. Get that bevel, and everything else will fall into place. Do it once, but do it right.
- Thread starter
- #116
Very helpful. None of my razors have passed beyond HHT3. Maybe that's one of the reasons (along with bad technique) for razor burn. New goal is for my razors to pass at least HHT4.
When I did some laps starting with the 5 micron film and then up through the progression to lapping off of the original bevel I got probably somewhere between hht 3 and hht4.
It was a pretty good shave, that's for sure. Felt and good and sharp. I'm going to shave off my new edge tomorrow or Saturday. It dug into my thumb pad pretty well, so I think it'll be good enough. We shall see!
It was a pretty good shave, that's for sure. Felt and good and sharp. I'm going to shave off my new edge tomorrow or Saturday. It dug into my thumb pad pretty well, so I think it'll be good enough. We shall see!
- Thread starter
- #118
Razor: Boker Damascus Steel 5/8 Half Hollow. The new-to-me razor wouldn't shave arm hair. Honed it for the first time on lapping film this way:
Edit: Ran edge on glass to even it out before honing.
12 micron: 90 laps (until bevel was set and it could shave arm hair)
6 micron: 120 laps
3 micron: 60 laps
1 micron: 60 laps
0.3 micron: 60 laps (with paper underneath)
CrOx 0.5 micron: 40 laps
Iron Ox. 0.1 micron: 40 laps
Even though the edge passed HHT3 but not HHT4, the edge felt smoother and sharper during the shave than my other razors. I had the best shave (so far) in only three passes. I usually shave in four passes. I think the difference was increasing the laps on the 6 micron.
Edit: Ran edge on glass to even it out before honing.
12 micron: 90 laps (until bevel was set and it could shave arm hair)
6 micron: 120 laps
3 micron: 60 laps
1 micron: 60 laps
0.3 micron: 60 laps (with paper underneath)
CrOx 0.5 micron: 40 laps
Iron Ox. 0.1 micron: 40 laps
Even though the edge passed HHT3 but not HHT4, the edge felt smoother and sharper during the shave than my other razors. I had the best shave (so far) in only three passes. I usually shave in four passes. I think the difference was increasing the laps on the 6 micron.
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- Thread starter
- #119
Any updates? Have you tried different progressions to maintain the edge?
I am trying to figure out what the best progression that delivers the best (smooth/sharp) edge. It'll take me a couple of more weeks.
The seller of my original razor, DaninFla, was kind enough to send me an old beater with broken scales to practice on.
There was some work that needed to be done aside from the edge, so I started by scrubbing it with a 3M abrasive sponge. Could probably use more work with some 800 grit (or even lower grit) sandpaper and work up through progression to get the whole blade nice and shiny. Got it fairly decent looking and then started honing.
Started with the 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper. Maybe 100 passes?
On the 5 micron lapping film - at least 60 passes
3 micron - 60 or so passes
1 micron - " "
On to the Crox side of the balsa strop - 50 passes
Iron Ox side of the balsa strop - 50 passes
60 passes on the leather strop
Results - definitely not as smooth as my original shaver. Kinda rough. I think it could definitely use some more work. But then again, so could my shaving technique! I've been using my original shaver the last couple shaves. It's definitely a bit smoother, so I'm going to stick with that for the time being and then come back to honing a little further down the line. I've got the equipment now, so no real rush.
There was some work that needed to be done aside from the edge, so I started by scrubbing it with a 3M abrasive sponge. Could probably use more work with some 800 grit (or even lower grit) sandpaper and work up through progression to get the whole blade nice and shiny. Got it fairly decent looking and then started honing.
Started with the 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper. Maybe 100 passes?
On the 5 micron lapping film - at least 60 passes
3 micron - 60 or so passes
1 micron - " "
On to the Crox side of the balsa strop - 50 passes
Iron Ox side of the balsa strop - 50 passes
60 passes on the leather strop
Results - definitely not as smooth as my original shaver. Kinda rough. I think it could definitely use some more work. But then again, so could my shaving technique! I've been using my original shaver the last couple shaves. It's definitely a bit smoother, so I'm going to stick with that for the time being and then come back to honing a little further down the line. I've got the equipment now, so no real rush.
