Not Sharp Enough for ATG

I'm having trouble finding a blade that can cut my chin and jawline whiskers ATG and hope you can shine some light or give me hope that the dreaded Feathers might be just the ticket. I've tried Derby, Personna, Astra SP, and now 7 O'Clock Yellows. Even the 7OCYs seem to pull more than I'd expect XTG/ATG. But, when I try any of them ATG on my chin or jaw line, they stop. I mean full stop. No skip, no pulling-and-moving-on. Razor stops. If I were to continue to move my arm without holding tighter, I'd drop the razor. If I hold it tighter I can force it through them with a little pressure and a lot of painful tugging.

Instead of any of the above, I go about halfway between XTG and ATG, varying that angle until it cuts well enough.

Next up in my sampler are the Feathers. Do you all think that's the solution? Is something off in my prep? Or do I need to give up on ATG on those areas?

My current prep includes soak my pure badger brush while I shower. Wash/shampoo/sometimes conditioner on face in the shower, TOBS Sandalwood bowl lathered. I've tried the Proraso Pre/post, but am trying to cut down on products to keep it simple for now. Adding that in didn't seem to make a huge difference. I don't think leaving product on longer would matter as it's my 3rd or 4th pass before I try ATG in those areas.

Thoughts? Feathers the ticket? Nair (sarcasm)?

This sounds very weird. If reduction in beard is taking place following WTG and XTG, the beard should easily be cut by most blades. How much beard is left before that final ATG pass? It shouldn't be very much. You could try a Feather blade...if that doesn't do anything to improve matters then it can't be the blade that's at fault...Feathers will go through just about anything. I'm guessing here but it really sounds like your WTG and XTG passes are not as effective as they should be, suggesting possibly the angle is off.

I think I'm being extra-careful of blade angle and will continue to watch it. I'll try the Feathers soon and see if that helps. Kind of hard to quantify how much is being cut in my first few passes. I do my ATG pass and then touch-ups and my touch-ups leave about 4-5 areas that I have to really work on to get them smooth.

I'll really watch the angles and try the feathers tomorrow or the day after.

Keep us informed and good luck.

I can only think of two things that can be causing your problem, and neither one of them is the brand of blade.

Number one is your lather. If you have a high-quality lather, the whiskers should be soft and well-lubricated, and the blade should easily glide through them. If you can, post a photo of your lather and let us take a look at it. You may be thinking it's good, but you probably don't have a good basis for comparison.

Number two is your angle. If you're not using the correct angle, particularly on your WTG and XTG passes, you're not reducing the whiskers enough. The final ATG pass should be mostly a clean-up pass to remove the remaining stubble that the first two passes didn't get. If you still have stubble patches after three passes, then the blade is not making contact with your face at the correct angle.

Snargle said:

I can only think of two things that can be causing your problem, and neither one of them is the brand of blade.

Number one is your lather. If you have a high-quality lather, the whiskers should be soft and well-lubricated, and the blade should easily glide through them. If you can, post a photo of your lather and let us take a look at it. You may be thinking it's good, but you probably don't have a good basis for comparison.

Number two is your angle. If you're not using the correct angle, particularly on your WTG and XTG passes, you're not reducing the whiskers enough. The final ATG pass should be mostly a clean-up pass to remove the remaining stubble that the first two passes didn't get. If you still have stubble patches after three passes, then the blade is not making contact with your face at the correct angle.

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Had similar comments in my shave journal. I can only assume my care in learning to lather and watching the angle must not be enough. I'll post a picture of my lather tomorrow for comments. I've taken time adding product and water until it looks incorrect a few times and thought I was hitting the sweet spot. Here's hoping I'm wrong.

As for the angle, It's possible I'm off, especially in a few spots. Sounds like I'm the one to blame and I'll pay way more attention to angle tomorrow as well as post that picture.

Thanks.

beengone said:

Next up in my sampler are the Feathers. Do you all think that's the solution?

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Yes.

I have similar problems with my neck hair. It is crazy thick, but grows sparsely. I use Feathers in a Gillette Old type. It is a super agressive shave. I have to be careful, but it works like a dream. No other blades in that razor (or any other DE...a well sharpened straight razor works well for me, too) have worked without pulling enough to be uncomfortable. I have tired several different blades, including each of the ones you have mentioned.

What type of razor are you using? I have to agree with Snargle #2, it sounds like the angle to me.

edit: EJ, OK I saw it in your sig.

I'll pay extra attention to angle tomorrow, maybe it's me (likely from the sounds of it). I've never had any razor - though carts and disposables maybe aren't a good benchmark- that would do ATG. I wish mine was sparse. It's think and dense. We'll see what happens.

Definitely concentrate on the angle

I know it's mainly talked about in the straights forum, but are you stretching your skin well? Although I shave with a straight, I also have a very dense and coarse beard...and whenever I can't get proper ATG passes, it is usually because I'm being lazy about stretching the skin.

Remember, WTG, XTG and then ATG. Finally, you may have to vary your angle. I know I do. A pivoting cartridge does this for you and no DE, SE, straight or injector does.

Try cold water after you are thru with all the previous suggestions

BZiel said:

I know it's mainly talked about in the straights forum, but are you stretching your skin well? Although I shave with a straight, I also have a very dense and coarse beard...and whenever I can't get proper ATG passes, it is usually because I'm being lazy about stretching the skin.

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I agree, if your prep is very good and your lather is at least ok, then you shouldn't have trouble. Stretching the skin correctly, which is part of good technique, would be a big improvement..

I need to add this though.. you've been using a very sharp blade.. the Yellow.. so the blade proabably isn't the cause although I do recommend those Polsilvers. I think the resolution will be found with properly created lather that allows for very slick blade movement.. so you may need to make a lather with more water to make it slick. Also, lately I've been creating "super lather", which is normally made by mixing a soap and a cream together. However, I sometimes like to hand lather soap on my face to the point that my face is super slick and soapy, then I will take my brush full of cream and apply cream over that soap on my face. Make sure you spend a full minute massaging the whiskers with the brush. Then I perform the removal of hair with perfect technique.. there you go, my recommendation.

For further reading that you may find very useful, look up "Uber lather".

Alright, here we go. I had some time tonight and didn't shave since yesterday around 2PM meaning I had 31 hours of growth. I didn't shower and instead did 'Kyle's Prep'. I washed my face, built my lather, lathered my wet face with the brush, rubbed it in with my fingers for a couple minutes, wet and very warm towel for a few minutes, wiped and finally started a normal shave. Shooting in a bathroom with mediocre light using my iPhone, so forgive focus, etc.

I was VERY sure to keep blade angle in mind and absolutely NO pressure. I actually over-compensated on blade angle sometimes rocking the blade right off my face. I did correct and catch those spots though.

Here's a picture of my lather. This is normal for me and I think it's good, no? (TOBS cream)


Here's two shots before the blade touched my face to give you an idea of what I'm working with. (ever notice how ugly our faces are up-close?).


Here's my face lathered up. Can't imagine I'm messing this up, but just in case.


I took pictures through the rest of the shave, but looking at them I doubt they're very helpful. Due to my light skin and very dark hair, it's hard to tell what's close (not much) and what's not. I did WTG/WTG/XTG/XTG opposite direction. I then did touch-ups on trouble areas that were especially bad. Here are the pics.

This is after first WTG. I don't usually rinse off like this and instead splash a to wet my face and re-lather. Did it this time for the picture. I do know how the grain is, so you'll notice my WTG means down from sideburns, but halfway up my neck it switches to Adam's-Apple-to-back-of-neck and at the bottom almost down-to-up.


Did that pass and one more WTG, then to XTG.

I have two more pictures to show. I'm hoping I can post one more reply and put them in as I guess there's a limit of 5. Here's hoping.

Here's after the first XTG, so a blade has touched each hair three times at this point.


For the sake of comparison I did an ATG on one part of my face to show what a BBS shave looks like for me. You'll note it doesn't look much better due to my skin/hair - oh well. (I have a five-o-clock shadow out of the gate and likely will until I turn grey.) But, the difference to my hand is very clear. Most of my face is smooth to a WTG or XTG touch, but not to ATG except in that one area where I did the ATG BBS shave. There are a few trouble areas that aren't smooth and I'm working on getting them better, but I don't need to worry about that here.

EDIT: Forgot to mention I did have some skipping on my XTG passes. As soon as it happened, I made sure I was using the correct angle. I did. It didn't skip bad and only in the areas I cannot go ATG.

So, you'll see in this picture the difference between where I did an ATG and where I didn't. BBS is from the sideburn to about 1/2" above my jaw line and about the width of a razor or so. Basically it stops about 1" below my ear lobe. The rest is just the WTG/WTG/XTG/XTG.


Had about 6 little weepers, all closed up by the cold rinse. One did re-open while applying my ASB.

So, comment away, please.

BZiel said:

I know it's mainly talked about in the straights forum, but are you stretching your skin well? Although I shave with a straight, I also have a very dense and coarse beard...and whenever I can't get proper ATG passes, it is usually because I'm being lazy about stretching the skin.

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I do stretch the skin as much as I can. It sure helps in most areas, but I have about 4 that seem to be just impossible for ATG even so. I've had comments recommending not changing blades and instead perfecting technique. Though I agree, I'm either doing something very wrong or need to try another blade that can cut this stuff without skipping or stopping.

As I try to imagine what I do, which is autopilot by now, I do in fact use some blade buffing on my chin... I do what you do.. WTG, XTG, then ATG, but I also BLADE BUFF on that last pass.. Gotta do that for some areas like the chin and the swirly area under my side burns. Looking at the pictures you provided it seems like your lather may have enough water for good glide.. hard to tell. This appears to be a technique deal IMO. If you blade buff, try keep your skin really slick in those areas during the buffing. Your beard grows really fast and is thick it seems.. definitely research Uberlather and learn to blade buff if you aren't doing it already.

One more thing.. I use the adjustable Merkur Progress.. and that helps me by allowing me to pre-set an angle that works for certain areas of my face and for certain passes .. i can glide the razor with the same angle each time, but I adjust the angle of the blade without changing the angle of the razor... I recommend the Progress to anyone that thinks they need a new razor.

I think that only you will find the answer because your beard growth is unique.

Alphonse said:

As I try to imagine what I do, which is autopilot by now, I do in fact use some blade buffing on my chin... I do what you do.. WTG, XTG, then ATG, but I also BLADE BUFF on that last pass.. Gotta do that for some areas like the chin and the swirly area under my side burns. Looking at the pictures you provided it seems like your lather may have enough water for good glide.. hard to tell. This appears to be a technique deal IMO. If you blade buff, try keep your skin really slick in those areas during the buffing. Your beard grows really fast and is thick it seems.. definitely research Uberlather and learn to blade buff if you aren't doing it already.

One more thing.. I use the adjustable Merkur Progress.. and that helps me by allowing me to pre-set an angle that works for certain areas of my face and for certain passes .. i can glide the razor with the same angle each time, but I adjust the angle of the blade without changing the angle of the razor... I recommend the Progress to anyone that thinks they need a new razor.

I think that only you will find the answer because your beard growth is unique.

Click to expand...

From what you're saying and the fact that people do have to blade buff, I could just have one of those beards and shouldn't expect miracles without ATG and blade buffing or some other technique. From all the people saying I should get a DFS with just WTG and XTG, I thought I was really messing up. I know I need to pay attention in a few areas, but maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree by trying to figure out angle if it's indeed correct.

I'll look into an adjustable in the future if things don't change, but I'm going to stick with what I have for now and for quite a while. As for uber lather or super lather, I'll give them a try at some point. One thing I did while using Proraso pre-shave was to re-apply it just before my ATG pass. For now I'll give up the ATG (this will probably last 3/4 - 2 shaves if miracles don't happen) and make certain I'm not having angle problems. Next shave I'll start with my trouble areas to be sure I'm focused. Maybe I'll try super lather later this week or next.

Side note: I think I'll start asking those who have 'solutions' if they have similar faces and whiskers. I wonder if some of the comments aren't coming from people with thin, light growth that can go 3-4 days without noticing.

looks like your beard is GNARLY thick and coarse, and you may need to find a way to protect your skin despite having to do some serious work to hack your beard off. try the following to improve your lather:

- as people have said, don't start out TOO dry, but err on the side of slightly too dry rather than slightly too wet, and add water as you go, until you get JUST the right thick, creamy, dense, shiny lather that will maximally protect your face.
- add liquid lanolin and/or glycerin.
- before your first pass, pre-lather your beard, let it sit for about 90 seconds, rinse, then re-lather.

additionally...

-DEFINITELY use a moisturizing conditioner in the shower for your prep routine, and make sure you let it sit on your beard for 2-3 minutes before you rinse.
-try to master an oblique XTG pass, somewhere between XTG/ATG, that gives you the right balance of smoothness and comfort.