Brush Chronicles #11: Vie-Long; El Caballo Español (The Spanish horse)

The standard mane/tail mix like the one on the 13061 bloomed after a while, and got somewhat softer. Not much though. I found it to be a little prickly with good backbone. My custom 12705 with the 35/65 mane/tail ratio and brown (extra) hair is very soft, literally like using a silvertip badger. The tips do not split at all like boars, but they do soften up. Malocchio mentioned the Marvycide tip where you can dip the tips in to soften the brush.

No horses were harmed from what I understand. The hair was collected from their haircuts.

My good work I also vielon I have a horse.

mftoms59 said:

malocchio, do you use any hard soaps, I know you like creams, especially those that are hard to find. The standard 13723 that I received in error, was supposed to have a loft of 57mm, my measurement put it @54mm, not much difference but still a bit high for me. I wouldn't mind a banded (50/50) set @ 48-50mm, for a bit of extra backbone and will have to add one soon.
BTW how about a demonstration, you don't have to post mug shots so don't be shy.

TZee, I'm not close to your photography skills but thanks, I figured a few Mug shots were better than just lather on my palm. It sure was a pain trying to clean my hands before handling my camera and trying to get some decent shots. Thanks for raising the Photography Bar, I guess I'll try harder tomorrow since I just completed tonight's shave.

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yes,I use mostly creams,but I have a few hard soaps as well,sanders scheerzeep,myrsol,proraso,p160,tabac,palmolive,arko,speick and this one,granado shaving bar from brazil...the lather is not so thick,but the scent of menthol melt-a-way dinner mints and a hint of menthol is great,and even though the lather is not super thick,and lacks longetivity,the glide is phenominal. Even after you have rinsed your face,the smooth glide remains,and leaves skin very very soft....the vie-long 50-50 13723 has no problems with hard soaps...you adjust the amount of rpm's and adjust your water ratio and you will hit paydirt in no time..the lather ,as you see in the photos, is not very thick,however I achieved a very smooth ,close shave with no irritation at all due to the lubrication in the airy lather...

I used the 13723 for a Tabac Palm Lather Wednesday and had no trouble loading and building the lather, I think a loft of ~50-51mm would add a bit of the scritch I enjoy when using a Horse Hair Brush, the tips were very soft and relaxing. I'm planning on ordering the banded 13520 @50mm after completing this Chronicle, I enjoy the feel & look of this Oak Handle. No Shave tonight, I'll post my next Lather and shave tomorrow evening.

malocchio thanks for posting, I really love the look of the Banded Hair after it blooms. How long have you had the 13723 and was their a Break-in period for it to reach it's full potential, as I have found using the Natural Brown Horse Hair Brushes.

I have been using the 13723 for 2 years,it blooms rather quickly,maybe 6-8 shaves ? horse hair is very durable,and I use a hotter mug of water than I would attempt with a badger...

I am very interested in getting a Vie-Long, particularly after reading these well written entries. If I am reading this correctly, I think you are saying that as a face latherer, I should not be looking at a brush with a loft higher than @50-51mm? I have found these brushes for sale on BullGooseShaving.com. I notice only Giftsandcare.com is mentioned in this thread. Am I better off getting the brush from G&C?
Thanks for your research and input!

juban62 said:

I am very interested in getting a Vie-Long, particularly after reading these well written entries. If I am reading this correctly, I think you are saying that as a face latherer, I should not be looking at a brush with a loft higher than @50-51mm? I have found these brushes for sale on BullGooseShaving.com. I notice only Giftsandcare.com is mentioned in this thread. Am I better off getting the brush from G&C?
Thanks for your research and input!

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I face and bowl lather,if you are using creams it's even easier,but I think you will have no problems with either loft.The shorter loft may be a little quicker , but the regular loft will also get you there..

I'm a bit confused as well. Between this thread and a couple others I'm not sure which hair ratio is which. Is the 35/65 the softer tip or is that the 50/50? I prefer more spring & flexibility in my brushes while retaining the ability to load a soap. For a more badger like face-lathering experience which hair ratio & what loft would you recommend?

Thanks so much for your time & I apologize if I've misread the information.

SharpSpine said:

I'm a bit confused as well. Between this thread and a couple others I'm not sure which hair ratio is which. Is the 35/65 the softer tip or is that the 50/50? I prefer more spring & flexibility in my brushes while retaining the ability to load a soap. For a more badger like face-lathering experience which hair ratio & what loft would you recommend?

Thanks so much for your time & I apologize if I've misread the information.

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The 50/50 uses less Tail Hair than the 35/65, Mane/Tail, the Tail hair is what provides the stiffness & Spring of the Brush. A Badger type experience can be had by both, the loft of your Brush does affect the stiffness of the brush regardless of hair ratio. The 35/65 @55mm would be comparable to a 50/50 set @~50-52mm because of the extra Tail Hairs, recommending a loft is difficult, and depends on the choice of hair. Do you like the feel of Black Badger, go with a 35/65 @ ~48-51mm, a bit softer try a 50/50 @ the 47-50mm range, both of these lofts would be suitable to bowl lather with as well. I have a 35/65 @45mm that I use strictly to Face Lather, the 12705 @47mm can be used for Face & Bowl. Regardless of hair ratio the tips will soften with regular use.

Juban62, I have only referenced G&C as I like to have my loft customized & the have the biggest selection of V-L Horse Hair. If you're happy with a higher loft, Bullgoose is a fine Vendor to do business with, malocchio, TZee, nor myself shill for any Vendor.

Thank you Malocchio, I neglected to mention I am using only creams at this point. I haven't ventured into soaps- yet. So you maintain that for creams, even the longer lofts will stand up fine to a face lathering. Thanks for clarifying that.

mftoms59- I did not mean for that to sound like I thought you were shilling for G&C- not in the least bit. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I am just seeking ultimate clarity before diving in on a purchase- it's part of my SBAD =)

mftoms59 said:

The 50/50 uses less Tail Hair than the 35/65, Mane/Tail, the Tail hair is what provides the stiffness & Spring of the Brush. A Badger type experience can be had by both, the loft of your Brush does affect the stiffness of the brush regardless of hair ratio. The 35/65 @55mm would be comparable to a 50/50 set @~50-52mm because of the extra Tail Hairs, recommending a loft is difficult, and depends on the choice of hair. Do you like the feel of Black Badger, go with a 35/65 @ ~48-51mm, a bit softer try a 50/50 @ the 47-50mm range, both of these lofts would be suitable to bowl lather with as well. I have a 35/65 @45mm that I use strictly to Face Lather, the 12705 @47mm can be used for Face & Bowl. Regardless of hair ratio the tips will soften with regular use.

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I like to face lather but have no problem using a bowl at times too. I prefer a more luxurious feel on my face & I'm very intrigued by the possibility of a luxurious feeling horse brush. With that in mind, and please correct me if I'm wrong again, I should look for the 50/50 ratio at a loft around 52mm. I prefer the look of the natural hair but it seems all of those are in the 35/65 ratio. I may email Juan again if no one here knows if it's possible to have the natural hair in the 50/50 ratio.
Can I get some feedback on the 12705 handle? I like the look of it but I'm not sure it would be comfortable in the hand. Currently I'm leaning towards the 13061 handle. Would those with this handle comment on its function?

Thanks again gentlemen!

This is a great thread, folks, thanks. Sorry I'm a bit tied up with other things (like my blind blade tests) to offer photos here, but I can at least describe my experience. I have a 13060M in natural brown 35/65 hair, and the default 55mm loft (23mm knot), and it suits me very well indeed.

People often say horse brushes are part way between badger and boar, and in some ways that's certainly true, but in another way they're just "different" in a way I find hard to explain - I don't think it's something you can get unless you try them.

Anyway, I find mine to be especially good for bowl-lathering (creams and soaps), and good enough if not brilliant for face lathering. For face lathering, I'm very likely to go for a shorter loft horse before too long, maybe the little 13800M in brown 35/65 (I do like that mix, and don't think I'd want 50/50).

Rolling along nicely lads! These brushes are still pretty much under the radar but from what I am seeing and reading here, they are great performers. Thanks for your efforts and please keep the photos coming.

After developing some confusion with how the hair ratios affect brush feel I've had some dialogue with Juan from G&C. Here is what I've received clarification on:

The banded faux badger always comes in 50/50 & the natural always comes in 35/65; at least for now anyway. The only way to customize the ratio is by choosing natural vs faux & putting it in the handle you like. The true customization really only comes from shortening the loft.

According to my last email from Juan, the 50/50 is slightly firmer than the 35/65; while the 35/65 is slightly firmer than the barber brush ratio of 25/75. Juan also advises that to make the firmness of the natural 35/65 to be similar to the firmness of the faux 50/50 only requires a loft reduction of 2-3mm to the natural hair (knot size being consistent of course).

I have to admit that I still have some confusion as Juan did confirm that the tail hairs contribute to firmness. So I'm not quite sure how the 35/65 is softer than the 50/50 when there is 15% more tail hair. But it does correlate that shortening loft produces a firmer feel. So if a natural & faux are both 23K/55L then you'd have to reduce the loft on the natural to 52-53 in order to have the same feel as the faux at 55L.

I guess only those who have both can really let us know the difference in feel.

juban62 said:

Thank you Malocchio, I neglected to mention I am using only creams at this point. I haven't ventured into soaps- yet. So you maintain that for creams, even the longer lofts will stand up fine to a face lathering. Thanks for clarifying that.

mftoms59- I did not mean for that to sound like I thought you were shilling for G&C- not in the least bit. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I am just seeking ultimate clarity before diving in on a purchase- it's part of my SBAD =)

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No need for apologies, I just wanted to clarify the purpose of this thread and only mentioned Juan and G&C by name because all the information in my first post was verified by e-mails between Juan and myself. The second reason was all my V-L Horse hairs were purchased and customized through G&C, and I know of no other Vendor that can provide that service. Remember, this thread is for all of you who may be interested in trying a V-L Horse Hair and I'll try to answer your questions, without trying to influence which Vendor you use.

SharpSpine said:

I like to face lather but have no problem using a bowl at times too. I prefer a more luxurious feel on my face & I'm very intrigued by the possibility of a luxurious feeling horse brush. With that in mind, and please correct me if I'm wrong again, I should look for the 50/50 ratio at a loft around 52mm. I prefer the look of the natural hair but it seems all of those are in the 35/65 ratio. I may email Juan again if no one here knows if it's possible to have the natural hair in the 50/50 ratio.
Can I get some feedback on the 12705 handle? I like the look of it but I'm not sure it would be comfortable in the hand. Currently I'm leaning towards the 13061 handle. Would those with this handle comment on its function?

Thanks again gentlemen!

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I'd agree you'd probably like the 50/50 ratio better, the Natural Brown Hair (NBH) is only offered in the 35/65 mix, Banded Hair only in 50/50, which IMO looks very good. The 12705(NBH) /13723(Banded) Handle is 1 7/8" high and 4 3/4" around at its widest point, the squarish shape is concave on all sides allowing a sure grip, I haven't experienced any slippage and it feels comfortable in my hand. The 13601 stands 5" high and is 4 2/8" at the top, 3 7/8" around the "waist" & 4 5/8" around its base, this is also a comfortable handle to grip & due to its hour-glass figure doesn't slip, IME I have with this Handle & Horse/Badger knot.

I find them both comfortable for my hand, which measures 7" from the tip of my middle finger to the first crease below the middle of my palm, so if your hands are larger I'd recommend the 13601 for functionality as well as aesthetic reasons.

To answer your latest post, the Tail is a rougher hair and the 35/65 is pricklier & scritchier than a 50/50, for anyone who may have Horses, feel both mane & Tail Hairs to confirm my post. I had both types of hairs with equal lofts, and out of the box the 50/50 is noticeably softer in the Tips & Backbone, secondly if a Barber Brush had mostly softer tips, they'd only be good for painting.

malocchio would best know the difference between the regular brush with 50/50 and a Barbers Brush since he uses both... Oh malocchio... Malocchio!

mftoms59 said:

I'd agree you'd probably like the 50/50 ratio better, the Natural Brown Hair (NBH) is only offered in the 35/65 mix, Banded Hair only in 50/50, which IMO looks very good. The 12705(NBH) /13723(Banded) Handle is 1 7/8" high and 4 3/4" around at its widest point, the squarish shape is concave on all sides allowing a sure grip, I haven't experienced any slippage and it feels comfortable in my hand. The 13601 stands 5" high and is 4 2/8" at the top, 3 7/8" around the "waist" & 4 5/8" around its base, this is also a comfortable handle to grip & due to its hour-glass figure doesn't slip, IME I have with this Handle & Horse/Badger knot.

I find them both comfortable for my hand, which measures 7" from the tip of my middle finger to the first crease below the middle of my palm, so if your hands are larger I'd recommend the 13601 for functionality as well as aesthetic reasons.

To answer your latest post, the Tail is a rougher hair and the 35/65 is pricklier & scritchier than a 50/50, for anyone who may have Horses, feel both mane & Tail Hairs to confirm my post. I had both types of hairs with equal lofts, and out of the box the 50/50 is noticeably softer in the Tips & Backbone, secondly if a Barber Brush had mostly softer tips, they'd only be good for painting.

malocchio would best know the difference between the regular brush with 50/50 and a Barbers Brush since he uses both... Oh malocchio... Malocchio!

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Thanks for your help once again mftoms! Your experience with both types in the same knot/loft speaks volumes. Perhaps something is getting lost in translation with my understanding of firmness when I've chatted with Juan. I apologize if my confusion has derailed the purpose of this thread. I look forward to hearing more about these brushes as they are put through the paces.

Now for tonight's shave, I bowl lathered some Saint Charles Soap New Spice with the 12705. I cold water soaked, as always, shook out most of the water and loaded ~50 seconds. I built the Lather in my mortar bowl ~3- 3 1/2 minutes to a creamy consistency and applied the first pass with circular & brush strokes using the tips. The circular motion did exfoliate and I felt a slight bit of pricklines & scritch in contrast with the softness during the brush strokes.

The Second pass lather was much moister when applied to my freshly rinsed face, using only the Brush Strokes. The Brush seems to be releasing the lather a bit easier due to the bowl lathering, where I'm able to use a bit of plunger action when I add some water, working the water & lather closer to the knot.

Tonight was my last evening with this Brush, I was contacted by another Member with questions about a short loft that I couldn't honestly answer. I felt it was best for him to experience it for himself, so he will be receiving this to "Test Drive" before making a purchase he may regret. I will use the Banded 13723 for the week of this thread.

you absolutely cannot compare a barber pro brush,extra or regular,with the standard size brushes.They have characteristics unique to their very high loft and not so dense hair....Many who complain of flimsiness or failure to achieve lather have not experimented enough with the water ratio or the amount of rpms needed to produce rich lather.In addition,shavers that are used to the normal size brushes tend to use these tall barber brushes with the same technique as the standard brushes,not a good idea ! You must ease up and take the pressure off those long strands of hair,try to work the lather up utilizing only the tips.By the time you achieve a good lather,the brush should be saturated about 50-60%,but you need to keep the upper half "dry"..When lathering up the face,same technique,use rapid rpms,but really try not to bend the knot,it takes some getting used to.If you have ever seen old silent films of guys getting a real barbershop shave,you will notice the lather is rich,but the barber is using very little pressure on that knot,and still he is producing one hell of a lather on the clients face...take your time and study your technique,these vie-long barber brushes,especially the Pro Extra models are an extremely good dollar value,especially if you do not expect them to act like a duke 3 best loaded with fiore & frutta !!

malocchio thanks for a fine explanation of the Barber Brush, now if the 50/50 were set @ 60mm loft, would that seem as stiff as the Barber or become a bit floppier due to the smaller knot utilized. Can the Barber Brush Load a Hard Soap like Granado?

I am the lucky recipient of the mftoms59 custom 12705 for a test-drive. I really want to like horse and feel like I may not have given my previous Vie-Long horse a fair shake. I had a Vie-long 13052 with an extra, undyed 20/55 knot. I found it too floppy and prickly when I face-lathered like I do with my boar and badgers brushes so I sold it. It has become apparent to me that I may not have broken the knot in long enough and may not have experimented with different variables long enough.

I can't wait to try the brush because I am a big fan of scrubby face-lathering brushes (recently picked up a Semogue 620 and loved it immediately and the only badgers I have held onto are shorter lofted two bands).

The above-described Vie-long brush (only customization was natural, undyed horse hair):