To go back to the 1.5k or not, that is the question

[APBinNCA]

Tis it nobler in mind to skip the 5k and spend another 30 minutes of grinding away. Okay so I am working on a rather problematic razor with quit the twist to it. The pictures are a horror show, it's not my doing. I am not judging so let's not talk about the obvious. I did fix the heel nicely if I don't say so myself...



I spent a LOT of time on the 1.5k, I kept asking myself are you sure the bevels are set. I went a little more several times. I still can't get microscope pictures so you are going to have to trust me when I say that the bevels are joined, I did all the checks. It did cut hair at this point.

I moved on to the 5k and tried not to do too much, there was obviously metal still coming off the spine immediately. I did end up going more laps than I wanted to because a few didn't feel smooth and I wanted the last 10 or 20 to be minimal pressure. At this point I should mention what minimal pressure means here: right or wrong, I am torquing the razor as much as it takes to get the edge to push water evenly ahead of it. I am not certain it is enough pressure on the bevels themselves. I checked and had nicely polished the bevels at this point.

I went on to films, no more than 20 laps or so on two different ones. Polish was definitely improved. I did 20 laps with the La Lune slate, linen and leather strops and done. I really don't think my problem is with the finer stages that is why I am rushing through the explanation.

So what is wrong here? It is the gentlest edge I think I could imagine and it does remove hairs. It doesn't tug, but it is not grabbing the hairs fully. I know this is the keenness, the apex is not narrow enough. Maybe it is micro beveled too much beyond the visible. What I am afraid is that the razor itself isn't guiding the bevel set due to the amount of torquing I am having to do. In other words, it is behaving like I am free-handing it. But I am not sure, it is entirely possible that I didn't grind enough. Or did I grind too much and I need to go back a step and spend more time polishing with the minimum pressure I can manage? It's a tough balance keeping the whole blade making contact. Taking off actual metal is difficult too, while maintaining contact. See, It could be either under or over doing it?

The question then is do I go back and try the 5k and maybe 100 laps with minimum pressure and see if it is cutting? Or do I go back to the 1.5k and take off more metal? This razor was bought for practice, and as a potential PIF, so telling me to send it to somebody who knows what they are doing is not the answer I am looking for. I clearly made new even bevels toe to heel so I am capable of something, but knowing how to interpret what isn't right is what I am lacking. I am fine with being told to move on if the bevels are joined and it isn't shaving well, maybe it is an RSO.

 

[Phoenixkh]

That looks like one problematic razor.. I hope you can get it sorted.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Have you calculated the bevel angle? I have some other thoughts but I'm curious about that first.

 

[Frank Shaves]

I use the cherry tomato test with the goal of every mm of the 1k edge easily slicing the tomato. Then and only then do I move on to my 4k. Then stay on your 5k (4k in my case) until the entire edge has 4k scratch marks, not 1k scratch marks, etc.

I am also curious about the answer to @Darth Scandalous's question.

 

[APBinNCA]

Have you calculated the bevel angle? I have some other thoughts but I'm curious about that first.

Sorry, should have added. 17.5 degree

 

[Wid]

The cherry tomato test is very good at checking bevel set. I’ve been leaning more towards the thumb nail test. Try and drag the razor on a wet thumb nail, it should grab and hold through the entire bevel. If it slides the bevel needs more work.

 

[APBinNCA]

I use the cherry tomato test with the goal of every mm of the 1k edge easily slicing the tomato. Then and only then do I move on to my 4k. Then stay on your 5k (4k in my case) until the entire edge has 4k scratch marks, not 1k scratch marks, etc.

I am also curious about the answer to @Darth Scandalous's question.

Interesting, I was at one time advised against over doing it on the middle stone(5k). Every bit of my instinct tells me that I didn't do enough, but that is kind of meaningless with my experience level. Now that you mention it, I may not have scratched it up enough... hmmm

The other problem this brings up is what kind of strokes to do? I have less trouble with the twist and the spine hitting the stone if I use diagonal strokes, but it still makes the spine look a mess. If I use rolling X strokes, I have to really torque it. Which is fine if that is what will produce the best result.

Thank you.

 

[APBinNCA]

The cherry tomato test is very good at checking bevel set. I’ve been leaning more towards the thumb nail test. Try and drag the razor on a wet thumb nail, it should grab and hold through the entire bevel. If it slides the bevel needs more work.

Okay! I just went and whittled off some of my thumbnail. It immediately grabs all along the edge and shaves off a layer without even trying. Back to the 5k then?

 

[Wid]

If the razor is twisted I find working on it in thirds works well. In this case circles is what I would lean towards. Don’t be afraid to sharpie the bevel when set. It won’t hurt it, that way you know where you are at when using the 5K.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Use whatever strokes work for you. I mostly use circles and x-strokes.

You need to apply pressure, but you don't want to over do it. If you are gritting your teeth, you are probably applying too much pressure. I think of it like petting a dog.

In addition to pressure, you need to apply torque onto the edge. Again, firm but don't over do it.

You want the entire edge to undercut the liquid (water, oil, etc.). I normally end each step in the progression using x-strokes with the goal of the entire edge undercutting the water/oil. And at the end lightening the pressure to pretty much just the weight of razor.

Be patient. You will improve through experience, including becoming more efficient.

 

[APBinNCA]

If the razor is twisted I find working on it in thirds works well. In this case circles is what I would lean towards. Don’t be afraid to sharpie the bevel when set. It won’t hurt it, that way you know where you are at when using the 5K.

I completely forgot about circles, good call. This is a great idea to divide it into 3 because I can see the difference in the scratch pattern at the transition line. I will go work on the 5k, but how would I go about doing the circles to keep both sides even? Would I need to finish with full length strokes? Maybe 20 circles one side then flip and repeat? Then microscope it?

 

[Wid]

Okay! I just went and whittled off some of my thumbnail. It immediately grabs all along the edge and shaves off a layer without even trying. Back to the 5k then

Not sure how you did this but take the razor and try to glide it on your thumb nail. Don’t cut the nail off, do it with the nail attached. Just Google it and there are videos out there.

 

[Wid]

I completely forgot about circles, good call. This is a great idea to divide it into 3 because I can see the difference in the scratch pattern at the transition line. I will go work on the 5k, but how would I go about doing the circles to keep both sides even? Would I need to finish with full length strokes? Maybe 20 circles one side then flip and repeat? Then microscope it?

I count my sets, usually 20 circles then one long stroke.

 

[APBinNCA]

Use whatever strokes work for you. I mostly use circles and x-strokes.

You need to apply pressure, but you don't want to over do it. If you are gritting your teeth, you are probably applying too much pressure. I think of it like petting a dog.

In addition to pressure, you need to apply torque onto the edge. Again, firm but don't over do it.

You want the entire edge to undercut the liquid (water, oil, etc.). I normally end each step in the progression using x-strokes with the goal of the entire edge undercutting the water/oil. And at the end lightening the pressure to pretty much just the weight of razor.

Be patient. You will improve through experience, including becoming more efficient.

I think I have the feel down with the 1.5k, it has a bite to it that doesn't take as much pressure to feel it cutting. I am applying the same amount of force on the 5k, partly because of exhaustion, and it feels more live velvet. I can see why some would want another stone in between, but it does sound like I am under doing it on the 5k. Definitely inefficient, I like that word better than incompetent.

 

[bluesman 7]

If I use rolling X strokes, I have to really torque it.

?????

 

[APBinNCA]

Not sure how you did this but take the razor and try to glide it on your thumb nail. Don’t cut the mail off, do it with the nail attached. Just Google it and there are videos out there.

I did and it immediately grabbed and bit in, zero force.

 

[APBinNCA]

?????

Because of the twist, in order for it to push water evenly across the whole edge. I tested different amounts and the corner lifts.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

In addition to the very good advice above, a couple thoughts on pressure and torque. I like to think of the bevel set stage as doing two things: first, establishing a relationship between the bevel and the spine, and second, developing a bevel with a good apex. Obviously they happen simultaneously but the second can't happen until the first is established. At this stage, you may need to use fairly even pressure across the bevel and spine. As it starts to come together, you can begin to lighten up your pressure and bias it toward the edge. Also the grind of the razor will limit how much you can bear down on the edge. A thin full hollow will deflect with too much pressure and you won't hit all the way to the apex. So using a little torque instead of straight down pressure is useful there.

A Sharpie will tell you if you're honing all the way to the apex, both at the 1.5k levels and further on in your progression. Also Sharpie the spine. This will show you very quickly if you're abrading both spine and bevel evenly.

I also like circles, focusing on a third of the blade at a time, especially at the early stages on each grit. Once things start to come together I will do 10 x-strokes, followed by light circles on eqch side, then more x-strokes. If you have any rough areas it's usually pretty easy to hear and feel with circle strokes.

As far as how much time to spend on the 1.5 and 5k, there's no recipe. You're done when you're done.

 

[bluesman 7]

Because of the twist, in order for it to push water evenly across the whole edge. I tested different amounts and the corner lifts.

The entire edge does not have to undercut at the same time, just sequentially as you roll through the stroke. The whole reason that you're rolling is because the whole edge does not contact the hone at the same time.

 

[lightfoot]

If your razor truly has a twist I might offer something worth considering although it does take a bit of work as far as preparing the stones. I have three stones that I have set aside and on the sides of each stone I gently rounded them over (Think of a file type cylindrical shape). I will literally go from the 1000 grit, then to the 5000, then to the 8000. Now as far as going to final finish with something higher I will decline to describe that procedure but I found that having the sides of a few stones gently rounded over really comes in handy with these types of razors. You are in fact essentially Honing on a file in this manner.