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Straight razors quickly become blunt, the steel is too soft, where is the manufacturing defect?

Straight razors quickly become blunt, the steel is too soft, where is the manufacturing defect?

It should be in the heat treatment, the question is, what went wrong?

Here is an overview:

Occurs to me:

* Not long enough in the lead.

* Immersed in quenching oil too slowly, or oil too hot.

* Coolant failed during grinding.

* Overheated during grinding. Rather unlikely.

* Wrong steel, very unlikely.

I'm not a knife maker and I don't know which steps are the most critical, maybe someone here knows about metallurgy and knife making and can enlighten me.

How did I come up with this? I bought cheap straight razors from Amazon, it says "Best Brand". I manage to get them very sharp, but after a few strokes the sharpness wears off immediately and at the end of the shave the knife is so blunt that I can no longer shave. Compared to an old Solingen, I can shave for over 2 months. If I look at the blade with a magnifying glass, it looks like a mountain range, chipped away. I had something like that with an old Solingen knife, so there could have been a mistake in production. How do I know that the steel was too soft? Quite simply, I can scrape the soft steel with other straight razors with harder steel, sharp edge on edge. I also noticed that a burr tends to form when grinding softer steel, could that be? I also conclude that the harder the steel, the longer the service life.

With my method, razor sharpening is no problem, takes about 5-10 minutes from raw to ready to shave and I got the equipment for a few bucks. Consists of diamond grinding plates and old leather belts glued to wood and coated with wax-bound polishing paste. Just figuring out how to put the tool together took a very long time, also to aquire the experience needed. Take diamond plates grits are 2500 and 1500 as well as 6 different grinding pastes and also blank leather for finish. Leather can be very different, it can be coarser than the coarsest grinding paste, but also finer than the finest grinding paste, you have to try the leathers out. And the cutting edge is not as straight as with whetstones, i.e. you don't have to be careful that you wear away evenly at the front and back. I think whetstones are the worst method of sharpening.

Straight razors have become indispensable for me, shaving works better than anything else, whether it's a dry razor or something else. No tugging, no razor burn, no stinging whiskers, inexpensive.


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Bottom and especially the middle one are for final stropping, top one is very coarse, coarser than the coarsest buffing compound. That surprised me and it took me a long time to figure it out.
 
A high quality straight razor will be made from high quality steel, have high quality heat treating, and have high quality grinding.

After heat treating, razors can vary in hardness from mid-50s Rockwell to mid-60s. The low end of hardness is represented by blades like Chinese Gold Dollar. These razors sharpen easily, but only hold their edge a short time.
At the high end of the hardness range you will find razors like Thiers Issard Carbonsong C135 steel. They are very difficult to sharpen, but hold their edge longer. Most straight razors fall somewhere in between.

Amazon sells a lot of inexpensive "razors". Many of the look like shaving razors, but at best are razor sharp knives, more useful for opening boxes than for shaving. That is why they have been dubbed "razor shaped objects" by forum members. Gold Dollar razors from China are inexpensive, but fairly decent considering the price.

Many of the RSOs are produced from 440C stainless steel. That is sometimes called "surgical stainless". It is great for making surgical tools for one-time use in medical facilities. If properly hardened, it could be used for straight razors, but it would be very difficult to sharpen.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
The only good new cheap, like under US$50, razors that I know of are some Gold Dollar SRs (China) and some of the Titan SRs (Taiwan). They are both available on AliExpress and other web sites at, generally, a higher price. Even then, they do not come truly shave-ready and will need honing before use.
 
Indeed it es soft steel, i figured out some ways to test this further. First thing is to tug the blade with the fingernail. "Best Brand" is completely dull, Gold Dollar, and old Solingen RSO give a very defined *pliiiinggg* singing sound, i think i can hear a slight difference between solingen and golddollar. Second method is to use a wolfram carbide engraving pen and scratching inside the grinding marks on the blade. On the "Best Brand" the pen is gripping very easily, Golddollar is very close to old Solingen RSO's. Now, the last test will be conducted in the future, how long can i shave with the golddollar, is it as long as two month like the last solingen RSO? We will see, i will report in two month or maybe sooner.

The Taiwanese "Titan" Brand advertises very high hrc values. Can anyone confirm these claims? I don't have one. Here rbscebu says it is a bit harder than golddollar: Titan 1918 ACRM-2 Straight Razor - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/reviews/titan-1918-acrm-2-straight-razor.211714/ How did you acquire this conclusion?

Would be interesting to have a comparison on these affordable RSOs and the high price brands. Tested HRC numbers would be helpful, but i doubt that anyone has those razors + the equipment.

Here it says Thiers Issard Carbonsong C135 hrc: 67

Here rbscebu says Titan ACRO is claimed around 62,5hrc
 
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IMO you have a few things goig wrong. To start its trying to hone without proper hones. Have a real straight honed by someone who knows how to hone and uses hones. Compare that edge to what you can do in 5 or 10 minutes. A bet you will find a big difference.

Then quit trying to find what details are wrong with a butter knife when you try to shave with it. ;)
 
I hone razors perfectly, they cut like lasers.... no difference or better than new safety razor blades. Theres nor problem, im interested in the manufacturing of these things. The only problem is that these butter knifes are advertised as perfectly usable for shaving... You can use them, but it makes no sense at all, its like using your fingernail as a screwdriver for putting a cabinet togehter.
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
The only problem is that these butter knifes are advertised as perfectly usable for shaving... You can use them, but it makes no sense at all

It makes perfect sense. They want your money and don’t care about the quality of what they’re selling.

Another possibility is that they are razor shaped knives, which are common. A knife takes far more abuse and must be less brittle/hard. If the description includes the word ‘knife’ that’s likely what it is, not a razor.
 
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You don't need diamond grinding plates or any knife sharpening type of equipment. You do not need polishing pastes. All you need is a good razor and a strop. You will need some stones for honing, say once every 4 to 6 months or so.

The RSO "razors" that you get on amazon don't have the steel. If you have a tough beard, they will go dull in the middle of your shave.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
@baertigeKaerntnerin, when I was living in the Philippines I was able to have hardness tests done at a local tool manufacturing firm. I am not sure if their testing machine had been properly calibrated but it was useful for comparison tests.

The Titan ACRM-2 T.H.60 SRs would have a hardness of a little over 60RHC while the Gold Dollar 66 and 208 would come in at a little under. This was also observed when I was honing those SRs.

The Titan ACRO T.H.64 had a measured hardness of about 64 RHC while their ACRO T.H-70 came in at a little under 70RHC. These comparative hardnesses were also observed while honing.

Generally, the steel hardness reflects in the blade's edge longevity, however there is more to it. Intergranular bonding in the steel also comes into play. Without good intergranular bonding, the edge will not last as long. Most martensitic stainless steels can be made quite hard but they can have larger grain sizes and weaker intergranular bonding compared to a lot of high carbon steels. This is evident in a lot of the cheaper VG10 stainless steels. Good for knives that don't mind a slightly toothy edge but not for SRs.

Titan tried to make SRs out of normal VG10 but that didn't work out so well. They then modified their heat treatment for them producing their VG10-HZ steel that improved the results but still nothing to write home about.

Titan, in collaboration with their Japanese steel manufacturer, then developed their ACRO stainless steel. This steel could be heat treated in a special way, incorporating ceramic, to hardness measurements from the mid 60s RHC up to about 70 RHC. That steel retained a fine grain size and strong intergranular bonding.

Titan's ACRO steel blades require careful honing and finishing to get their best edges, equivalent to a very good high carbon steel with similar bevel angle. Once obtained, their edges last for a surprisingly long time.
 
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Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
Acro appear to be a Chinese metal stamping, forming, and welding company. They list that they’re close to Ningpo (ring a bell?). I don’t see that they make steel at all, though maybe I missed it.

 
Very conclusive stuff mr rbscebu, thank you very much. In my book every thing else than carbon steel makes no sense for RSOs. I also like Opinel Carbon Pocket knifes, in some Cases Stainless steel makes sense, if it gets wet in storage or something like that. For Outdoor knifes i like a hultafors carbon working knife. I really prefer carbon steel in every aspect because its harder, more flexible an not as brittle as stainless.

I figured out some time ago that there are safety razors that have tilted heads, which can also be adjustable. Or Slant-Bar Razors they are called. They are supposed to immitate the cutting motion a blade performs while cutting into a tomato. There are also ones that bend the blade and twist it, so it deforms and this gives a slant plus it is supposed to give the blade stability. In german its called "Torsionshobel". Because of that i tried a different shaving style, i did a slight sideways movement while shaving and voila, the RSO cuts through the toughest beard even if its dull. No problem with cutting myself, the opposite is true, but i take care. I really look forward to see how the GD compares to the old solingen. I used the old solingen for two month and i never stropped it whilst doing so. Its really a convenient way to shave, never hat such a good experience with any other kind of shaving. I would start it every time all over again, one of my best decisions in life two years ago :)

rbscebu can you tell how the hrc of your knifes effects how log you can shave with it, before rehoning? Whats the difference in a Solingen, or GD, in comparison to a hrc 70 Titan one?
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
....
rbscebu can you tell how the hrc of your knifes effects how log you can shave with it, before rehoning? Whats the difference in a Solingen, or GD, in comparison to a hrc 70 Titan one?
No, I cannot tell you how the hardness affects how long you can shave with a SR. To obtain such information would take months or years. I just don't have the time. Some on B&B have reported that, with proper technique in both shaving and stropping, they can go for many tens to well over a hundred SR shaves with one razor without needing a refresh. This is mainly done with good quality steel blades.

Things that can affect edge longevity include:
  • Shaving technique
  • Stropping technique
  • Steel
  • Initial honing skills
  • Bevel angle
  • How the SR is maintained
There may be a difference between Solingen steel and GD steel but I haven't noticed it. Compared against the Titan T.H-70, the Titan is noticeably much harder when honing. With all else being equal, particularly bevel angle, the Titan, Solingen and GD steels all take about an equal quality edge, just that the T.H-70 requires a lot more work on the hones to get it there. I have honed up 10 of them. Most will not have the time or patience to produce a good shave-ready edge on a T.H-70 but it can be done.

If your budget is limited, I would suggest that you seriously consider a GD 66 or 208, or a Titan ACRM-2 T.H.60.
 
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rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
Acro appear to be a Chinese metal stamping, forming, and welding company. They list that they’re close to Ningpo (ring a bell?). I don’t see that they make steel at all, though maybe I missed it.

Nothing to do with Titan SRs. Titan told me a few years ago that they keep their ACRO steel formula a closely guarded secret. I doubt that you will find anything on it. I have tried.

I have been told that their steel comes from Japan, scales material from Africa, manufacturing is performed in Taiwan and then shipped to Hong Kong for marketing and distribution. International shipping is normally from Shenzhen, China for economy.

Their main market is China with about one-quarter of the world's male population.
 
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Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
So you’re saying that this ACRO has nothing to do with Titan ACRO with no verifiable citations?
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
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