question on Honing: the burr is coming off!

[quijas23]

Hello Everyone, Hope everyone is doing well on fathers day.
Recently i got a 90x scope and when viewing my razor while sharpening under the scope, I see what I think is the burr being honed off. I can literally see this when I put it under the scope ; i see what I think is the burr - long metal pieces that get flushed away from the edge as I sharpen.
For you honemeisters out there, is this the correct method? should you try to preserve the burr? or am i over honing?
I'm not new at this, been straight razor shaving for ten years + but looking to up my game. On fathers day i have finally had time to play with my razors and appreciate anyone out there with words of wisdom.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“I see what I think is the burr being honed off. I can literally see this when I put it under the scope ; i see what I think is the burr - long metal pieces that get flushed away from the edge as I sharpen.”

Nope, completely normal.

What grit stone are you seeing this on?

You may have created a large burr on a lower grit stone or used too much pressure and now honing it off. The goal is to not make a large burr and then refine the edge with a progression, make the edge straighter.

When we hone there is always a burr, if you use edge leading strokes and finish setting a bevel with lighter strokes, you can minimize burr creation that is not as pronounced and easily honed off forming a straight edge.

If you make a large burr, chances are it will break off and create a ragged edge. Not a big deal if you use a progression or joint the edge and re-set the bevels back to meeting.

When looking at the bevel and edge, look to see if you are honing all the way to the edge from heel to toe. If you are making a burr, you are at those spots, but ensure that it is from heel to toe.

Look at the edge from the side, it should look straight not serrated, then look straight down on the edge with a bright light behind you. Any shiny reflections are where the bevels are not meeting, chips or a rolled burr.

Post photos of your razor for better advice.

 

[Gamma]

If you've been honing for 10 years and your shaves are good, whatever you've been doing has been correct.
If you are missing something in your shaves or edges, then that is something else.

A lot depends on what point of honing you are talking about. For everything after bevel-set work, I wouldn't be seeing a burr. Honing via x strokes with appropriate pressure doesn't create a 'roll over' type of burr.
When honing with 1/2 strokes, with pressure, on a coarse 1k - then perhaps.
So, getting back to 'what is normal' - that depends on the stage of honing, and technique. For example, if I was doing a touchup on a 12k, no - a burr would not be normal.
And what you are defining as a burr is important too - every edge has an apex and every apex is serrated to some degree, regardless of grit. One might want to argue that every apex has a burr. When I refer to a burr though, I am talking about metal that literally rolls over to one side...So there's that to weigh in also.

 

[Lyon Heart]

Rather than start a new thread, I am hoping to add my challenge to this post in hopes of confirming a solution to a burr (a rolling edge).

I bought a new razor from an individual who forges straight razors from old files. This one is large and upon my first shave two days ago, it didn't give a great shave. I looked at it through a microscope with a light in front and saw what I thought was a blunted edge. The first evening I took it back to a 5K stone and then 8K, 12K and 16K. The next day it didn't shave well so that evening I gently started with a 1K stone then a progression. Today it didn't shave and if I run my thumbnail against the length of the edge, that side then feels dull and shows a reflecting edge edge under the scope. I am confident I have a rolling edge the length of the razor.

Somewhere on a past thread, that I can't find today, I believe it was recommended that I gently run the edge on the corner of a stone to remove the burr. Alternatively, I thought that I could run the razor edge on the flat surface of the stone.

In short, I am asking for a recommendation of how to remove the rolling edge, what grit of stone to use to remove it, and how to avoid re-establishing it.

Any input would be appreciated.

 

[JPO]

Rather than start a new thread, I am hoping to add my challenge to this post in hopes of confirming a solution to a burr (a rolling edge).

I bought a new razor from an individual who forges straight razors from old files. This one is large and upon my first shave two days ago, it didn't give a great shave. I looked at it through a microscope with a light in front and saw what I thought was a blunted edge. The first evening I took it back to a 5K stone and then 8K, 12K and 16K. The next day it didn't shave well so that evening I gently started with a 1K stone then a progression. Today it didn't shave and if I run my thumbnail against the length of the edge, that side then feels dull and shows a reflecting edge edge under the scope. I am confident I have a rolling edge the length of the razor.

Somewhere on a past thread, that I can't find today, I believe it was recommended that I gently run the edge on the corner of a stone to remove the burr. Alternatively, I thought that I could run the razor edge on the flat surface of the stone.

In short, I am asking for a recommendation of how to remove the rolling edge, what grit of stone to use to remove it, and how to avoid re-establishing it.

Any input would be appreciated.

Just by honing on something like an 1k will remove it.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Assuming by “rolling edge” you are referring to an edge that a burr has rolled over.

First, was the bevel fully set on the 1k, how did you determine that it was?

What level of magnification are you using?

Jointing, lightly running the edge against a corner or the face of the stone will lightly cut off any burr or flashing (very light burr). Jointing on the face will remove less of the edge than using the corner, depending on the pressure. On the face a larger part of the blade is on the stone, corner, the pressure is concentrated at a single point. The goal of jointing is to make a straight edge, then bring the bevels to meet an edge that is already straight.

But no matter, once the bevels are flat and at the correct angle, they can be brought back to meeting in about 10-15 laps at bevel set.

Rolling an edge is usually caused by lifting the spine or too much pressure when stropping. If the edge is failing, it is usually a heat treat issue or damage to the edge.

Sometimes with some razors, a bit of the edge must be removed to get to good steel. I find this common with razors coming off the buffers. I suspect it fatigues the thin steel at the edge, you would have to get it much hotter than a buffer to affect temper but may be possible with some steel.

Also, you are using a lot of finishers, 8,12 & 16k. With this razor learn to make a good 8k edge, then experiment improving the edge with the 12 and then the 16.

I would joint the edge on the 8k and reset on the 8K.

Post photos for better advise.

 

[rbscebu]

Sounds like your bevel is not set. The shave test is the one that counts.

Set your bevel on your 1k stone and strop on clean leather. From there you should be able to shave at least WTG with reasonable comfort and XTG with little comfort using your 1k edge.

From then on it is just polishing the bevel/edge.

 

[Lyon Heart]

Assuming by “rolling edge” you are referring to an edge that a burr has rolled over.........

Success, I just had a great shave.

On my previous sharpening, I had thought my bevel was set on the 1k. I have a 1000X microscope. I tend to inspect by looking from the side as well as straight on with a back light.

I suspect that the burr was there after honing on the 1K and that I didn’t see it. I definitely didn’t lift the spine when honing and am always careful on the stropping. If anything, given it was a large chopper I may have been a bit heavy handed on the weight.

Before sharpening this morning I took a couple pics (see 1st & 2nd pic) of the rolled edge.

I jointed on the face of my 1K stone then re-established the bevel (see 3rd pic). I then progressed through to a 16K (see 4th pic), stropped on linen with chromium oxide and then buffalo hide. I have to admit that I made a point of being ever so light handed during the honing.

I liked your comment about establishing a good edge with the 8k before trying to improve it with the 12K and 16K. If I'd had more patience I should have stopped at the 8K and then shaved. To be honest, this was a very specific razor that I had hoped would take an excellent edge. I was impatient to have it shave like it did today and meet my expectations.

Thanks for your advice. The shave was excellent and the razor is now part of my rotation.

 

[psfred]

Depending on how that razor was made (hand forged vs power forged vs ground from a blank) the very edge is quite likely to have lost it's carbon during heat treating (heating, quenching, and tempering). On top of that, it's almost impossible to keep the thin edge from annealing from residual heat while quenching, just the nature of steel.

The result is that the initial edge is often not fully hardened for a few thousandths of an inch, and if you try to hone that part of the steel, it will just roll up until you get to the hardened part. Once you grind off that little bit of steel you will get a great edge, files are great steel for making razors.

This is true of modern production razors as well, just like knives. Not a problem, you found the solution, lol. Grind a little bit off.

 

[Lyon Heart]

Depending on how that razor was made (hand forged vs power forged vs ground from a blank) the very edge is quite likely to have lost it's carbon during heat treating (heating, quenching, and tempering). On top of that, it's almost impossible to keep the thin edge from annealing from residual heat while quenching, just the nature of steel.

The result is that the initial edge is often not fully hardened for a few thousandths of an inch, and if you try to hone that part of the steel, it will just roll up until you get to the hardened part. Once you grind off that little bit of steel you will get a great edge, files are great steel for making razors.

This is true of modern production razors as well, just like knives. Not a problem, you found the solution, lol. Grind a little bit off.

Thanks. I love an explanation that justifies my inability to get a decent edge on a razor without it being my fault. I've ignored this razor for a while, so it sits in my cabinet more as a novelty item.

I've also had a B&B member offer to sharpen it but have held off until I give it one more try. The next step is to give it one more honing, one more disappointing shave and then slip it into a Fedex package and let someone more knowledgeable figure things out.

 

[psfred]

Well, high carbon steel does have to be heat treated to act any different than low carbon steel. Do you have any idea how it was heat treated (hardened and tempered)? If it was just ground from a surface hardened file, it's not going to hone up to a good edge no matter what you do as the steel itself isn't hard.