Please help!

[psfred]

I finally got one of my Gold Dollars shaving sharp tonight. Same issue the OP had, could hone forever and the bevel would polish but it wouldn't shave.

Finally too a look at the edge straight on with my USB "microscope", and sure enough, although the bevel ended in a nicely polished straight line, it was flat on top.

Took it back to my just flattened Bester 1200 and did laps until it did like knives and plane blades, actually feels like it's trying to cut into the stone.

Once I got a bevel set I ran through my aoto, king 6k, Kitayama, a nice coti, and my mystery hone that is either a PDSO or a Jnat, and then some stropping on wood and green compound. Sharp enough to shave ATG dry before stropping on leather.

Will try shaving tomorrow, I'm off work until Jan. Should be interesting.

Bottom line, until you have the bevel set, it's not gonna shave no matter what you do.

 

[Goofy_Bee]

@Kingshave
You said you tried to hone that SR for a year?
Have you ever checked the bevel angle? If the spine is honed down too much, the angle gets too acute. That happened when I tried to hone my first straight (and yeah, I destroyed it that time). If the angle get way below 13° (including) the steel wont't hold that edge. Then you have to offset the spine with tape until the angle is correct.

 

[Kingshave]

Thank you all for the replies and good advice! So many kind people on this forum. It makes me understand honing a bit better, small steps at a time. Im not going to give up until I get this figured out. I understand its not easy to pinpoint my problem without video (I might add this later).

Anyhow some more inforation. The way I know the stone is flat is by using pencil on the stone and then use my atome diamond plate until all pencil marks are gone.

I have tried using pressure "downwards" pushin edge hard "into" stone and only weight of razor - still dull. I always use tape.

I have several razors, all bought in really good shape, well done by a profession hone master. Spine looks great. The problems have started when I need to sharpen them myself.

I see the tomato test is mentioned - should it cut the tomato easily just by putting the razor on it or should i "slide" the razor?

I understand the razor should be possible to shave with after bevel is correctly set on a 1000 grit stone - is that also before stropping?

Is it "no no" to bring some stone/(metaly slurry from a lower grit stone to a higher?

Im 100% sure there is nothing wrong with the spine on my razors as they are in really good shape.

 

[Kingshave]

My loupe is 16x by the way. I think I will buy a usb microscope.

 

[Steve56]

I see the tomato test is mentioned - should it cut the tomato easily just by putting the razor on it or should i "slide" the razor?

No to minimal lateral movement of the blade, just push, like shaving. The more lateral movement needed, the worse the bevel is.

I understand the razor should be possible to shave with after bevel is correctly set on a 1000 grit stone - is that also before stropping?

I’d strop it, at least a little.

Is it "no no" to bring some stone/(metaly slurry from a lower grit stone to a higher?

Yes, you’ll bring some coarse grit with it. Rinse the razor between grits.

Good honing!

 

[lightfoot]

It sounds like your pressure management may be the issue. Down-pressure (with the floor as a reference) isn’t really what you want. A minimum amount of down pressure is needed in as much as you’re able to maintain even contact with the stone but no more than that. It seems like what you are missing is the slight torque or twist by which the edge makes more positive contact with the stone. Imagine trying to scoop the water off the top of the stone with the edge. I’m not talking about a hard twist like using a screwdriver but just gentle torque as if you’re trying to undercut the water so that it will shoot over the bevel. Essentially there’s a little more contact pressure at the edge side of the Razor than the spine. That being said don’t lift the spine off the stone.

At this point I would forget about speed or anything but the basic X-stroke. Try adding a little torque imagining you’re trying to undercut the water with the edge of the razor and just do this slowly until you can easily cut arm hair it’s skin level or perhaps after a brief stropping try to do a limited shave-test with it.

 

[Frank Shaves]

I always finish lapping with light to minimal pressure - just the weight of the stone.

Every mm of the edge needs to cut the tomato effortlessly. I agree with Steve - minimal lateral movement when cutting the tomato. I do, however, use a slight slicing motion at the toe and heel - with heel leading toward the toe and toe leading near the heel. Watch this video of Alfredo (@Doc226) at 2:40:

Always strop an edge before putting the edge on your face.

Always thoroughly rinse and wipe the blade with a soft cloth to remove all grit before moving to the next grit. I change cloths between 3k and 8k.

I use a Belomo 10x Triplet loupe, but that's me.

 

[Frank Shaves]

It sounds like your pressure management may be the issue. Down-pressure (with the floor as a reference) isn’t really what you want. A minimum amount of down pressure is needed in as much as you’re able to maintain even contact with the stone but no more than that. It seems like what you are missing is the slight torque or twist by which the edge makes more positive contact with the stone. Imagine trying to scoop the water off the top of the stone with the edge. I’m not talking about a hard twist like using a screwdriver but just gentle torque as if you’re trying to undercut the water so that it will shoot over the bevel. Essentially there’s a little more contact pressure at the edge side of the Razor than the spine. That being said don’t lift the spine off the stone.

At this point I would forget about speed or anything but the basic X-stroke. Try adding a little torque imagining you’re trying to undercut the water with the edge of the razor and just do this slowly until you can easily cut arm hair it’s skin level or perhaps after a brief stropping try to do a limited shave-test with it.

You want to feel every mm of the edge of the blade on the stone - like cleanly slicing cheese.

Pushing is like using a Swedish cheese plane. An x-stroke should introduce some lateral motion into the stroke. You need to find your own space. Play with different strokes and play with pressure until you can feel the edge on the stone.

 

[Gamma]

Pasted strops won't save a razor without a bevel set.
While it is possible to set a bevel with certain compounds, it's the same thing as honing and really not easier to be honest. IN a few ways it can be much more difficult. No matter what, you still need to form an apex and refine it.

FWIW - There is only one method - set the bevel and refine it.
That's it.
NO bevel means NO edge.
Set the bevel and you have an edge.
It really is just that simple. And when it is kept simple, positive results arrive sooner.

 

[Gamma]

The way I know the stone is flat is by using pencil on the stone and then use my atome diamond plate until all pencil marks are gone.

Your stones are probably not flat. Naniwa superstones lose pencil grids long before the stone is actually flat. Plus, many of them have been known to warp during and in between honing sessions.

I have tried using pressure "downwards" pushin edge hard "into" stone and only weight of razor - still dull. I always use tape.

You are using pressure incorrectly. Torque to the edge, do not 'push down'

I have several razors, all bought in really good shape, well done by a profession hone master. Spine looks great. The problems have started when I need to sharpen them myself.

To be expected, learning to hone is a process.

I see the tomato test is mentioned - should it cut the tomato easily just by putting the razor on it or should i "slide" the razor?

I can cut tomatoes with a credit card.

I understand the razor should be possible to shave with after bevel is correctly set on a 1000 grit stone - is that also before stropping?

Honing is followed by stropping. Shaving is also followed by stropping. Sometimes stropping is followed by stropping.

Is it "no no" to bring some stone/(metaly slurry from a lower grit stone to a higher?

Please explain why you would even think that's a good idea.

 

[psfred]

To restore a razor that has gotten dull in use you don't need to go back to re-setting the bevel. If you ding it on the faucet rinsing it, yeah, probably need to restore the apex, but dull from use, no.

Get a very hard stone (King Deluxe 300 maybe, it's what I use) and some loose silicon carbide grit, 80 to 100 is fine. Soak your stones, wet the 300, sprinkle a quarter teaspoon of grit on it, and rub the lowest grit stone you use for razors on it.

Very likely you will find it does NOT abrade all over, it will have dips and hollows, plus very likely high ends. Get it flat, refreshing grit as necessary. Once flat, rinse all the grit off and dress the surface on the low grit stone against the 300 with just water (to smooth it out some, it will be VERY coarse if you don't).

You can then use the 1K or whatever stone to flatten your higher grit stones. If they way out of flat you can use the 300 first, then the 1k. Get them all flat, then rub the higher grit ones together to smooth them. Or use a nagura or rubbing stone, just get them smooth.

The King Deluxe is VERY hard but as a result very hard to get out of flat. It will get "blunt" if used to flatten 1K stones, but some grit and hard stone of some sort will refresh it nicely. Check to make sure it's flat to start with, but all of mine have been as received.

If you are damaging the bevel by attempting to hone, you have something way off in your technique. I find I have to watch that I don't dig the edge into the stone by lifting the spine, so you may need to watch that. Also, bevel the edges of the stones, dragging the edge over the side of the stone will chew the apex off.

If you have been "jointing" the edge by "slicing" into the stone perpendicular to the surface, I would recommend you never do that. It puts a non-reflective fairlys smooth flat on the apex, and the bevel will look perfect from the side with clean edge with scratches that go full width, but if you have enough magnification and can look directly at the apex straight on, you will see a tiny flat. Polishing of the flat side will get you a clean apex only after you wear off a very large amount of metal.

I can feel the apex form on my Bester stones, one of the reasons I like them so much. The stone "bites" and drags much more, plus sounds different when the apex is reached.

Make sure you are applying more pressure to the edge than the spine, you don't need a huge amount with a clean synthetic stone. Too little and you are just wearing off the spine, too much and you can flex the razor enough to sharpen behind the apex only, especially on new double hollow ground razors, with the result that you never actually reach the apex, it's always up in the air above the grit. Only thing that happens at the apex is a foil edge.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

My loupe is 16x by the way. I think I will buy a usb microscope.

I think a decent field of view is more useful than higher magnification, 99% of the time. But you need to know what you're looking for.

 

[Gamma]

Magnification often exacerbates confusion and misdirection. I use a 4x loupe 99% of the time.

The OP has been honing for a year without making a shaving edge.
I would bet a dollar that the bevel most definitely needs to be reset.

I might argue that putting a tugging edge on a 12k for a few passes is also setting the bevel.
The grit of the stone and the number of passes is irrelevant, fact is that starting on a 1k or tuning on a 12k is still turning the U-shaped apex into a V.
And, sometimes, a 'worn from shaving' edge is worn enough to warrant seeing some time on the 1k. Has to be evaluated case by case. Doing a quick reset is no big deal. No reason to be afraid of it and there is everything in the world to gain from knowing for sure 100% that all is done 100%. Common sense tells us that 10 passes on a 1k is easier and faster than 40 passes on a 3k. No matter how you slice it, turning a U into a V requires taking x amount of steel off, doesn't matter what stone you use to get there.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Learning to hone a razor is about eliminating as many variables as possible.

First the razor, does it have any issues? Likely you have not learned what to look for, so if you want better advise, post a couple photos of one razor. That it was honed, prior, where it was made or cost, means nothing as to why you cannot get an edge on it. Eliminate the razor as a potential issue.

Lap your stones reasonably flat, a pencil grid works, but you must remove the pencil grid several times, with a diamond plate or 220 wet and dry, because the slurry will wash off the pencil and the stone may still not be flat.

Generally, after lapping and completely removing a pencil grid, 3-4 times the stone is flat, if you can completely remove a new pencil grid in less than 10 laps. If not, the stone is not flat enough. A stone does not need to be “Dead Flat” just flat enough that there are no rough spots or pockets that are not smooth.

Round or chamfer the stone edges, if not you can drag the razor bevel and edge across rough corners and undo all the honing you just did.

All other bevel setting test, tomatoes, hair, TNT, paper, require calibration, (learning what the results of the test mean, to you). For example, how a razor cuts a tomato is just as important than if it cuts. Once calibrated one can possibly feel a chip when cutting, once you have calibrated the tomato test.

Look straight down on the edge, if you see reflections, the bevels are not meeting. It is pass or fail, no calibration needed, PASS of FAIL.

Folks that tell you, you do not need magnification already know how to hone, what to look for and what it means. A 60/100X Carson MicroBrite LED lighted loupe is $15 and a good investment. What you will see will be similar to micrographs of edges that are posted online, so you have something to compare to.

When learning to hone you want to see as much as possible so you can learn about what you see. When you started to drive, you want to see out the windshield and ALL the windows, to get as much information as possible, not just a small portion of a dirty windshield.

Google (My Second Try at Honing), it is a long post of a new honer’s second attempt at honing a razor, from eBay beater to pristine bevel super shaver. If nothing else, make your bevels look like his at each stage in the progression.

Note, it took 51 posts to fully set the bevel. His experience is pretty normal. It is an old thread and quite a few folks have learned to hone from that post.

The OP took excellent micrographs with a $30 USB scope. The benefit of a USB scope is the camera and the ability to post photos and get real time advice about a specific issue. I have taught several people to hone across the world using a USB scope.

 

[JPO]

My loupe is 16x by the way. I think I will buy a usb microscope.

You have all you need. If you learn how to use your loupe you don't need a microscope.
It takes allot of time to actually make sense of what you see under a microscope. That time is better spent with your loupe. A good light source is also important. Sunlight is optional, but hologen light is also good. The white light you often get with loupes is not good to view steel striations in my opinion.


You have mentioned two times that you use slurry. Slurry can speed up the process, but it can also dull the edge quite fast if it gets to tick. You don't need to use slurry on synthetic stones. Just refresh the surface if it starts to load up.
Razors are quite flexible. If you use to much pressure you can actually flex the grind enough to lift the front part of the bevel off the stone. That means you can hone the razor to a toothpick without being able to cut a tomato.
You need enough pressure to feel that the stone is cutting. Tape mutes the feedback. So, if you have a practice razor, I would recommend honing without tape to develop your sense of feel on the stones. I would probably use tape on the razor you care about entil you find your way.

 

[psfred]

With few exceptions, synthetic stones are either aluminum oxide or silicon carbide based, and neither of those will crush in honing. Slurry will just blunt the apex, especially on a 1K stone. Clean, flat, water only and you only need a couple strokes to bring a dull razor back to a clean apex, they cut fast.

Jnats and Coticules are different -- Jnats have silica particles that are usually plate-like and friable, while Coticules are filled with sphereoid garnets. Slurry on those stones speeds them up and allows you to change the natural grit size on Jnats. AlOx stones will just have large pointy grit rolling around.

 

[Kingshave]

Thanks everyone for all the insightful and helpful advice! Im gonna practice more and come back to this tread as soon as I have made some progress and tested the new insights out. Then I will also bring some pictures.

My naniwa stones have been lapped many times so Im confident their flatness is not the problem. I can definately support that they get warped - my 12000 now suddenly was "bent like a banana" and broke in 2 halves....When I used the 12.000 for honing it was ok (it was not this stone´s fault).

Im gonna work more on my tecnique, feel the stone, slight torque towards the stone, shorter x-strokes, and examine / look for reflections with my loupe. I think I also need to hone less (a lot of metal is now on my synthetic stones).

 

[JPO]

Thanks everyone for all the insightful and helpful advice! Im gonna practice more and come back to this tread as soon as I have made some progress and tested the new insights out. Then I will also bring some pictures.

My naniwa stones have been lapped many times so Im confident their flatness is not the problem. I can definately support that they get warped - my 12000 now suddenly was "bent like a banana" and broke in 2 halves....When I used the 12.000 for honing it was ok (it was not this stone´s fault).

Im gonna work more on my tecnique, feel the stone, slight torque towards the stone, shorter x-strokes, and examine / look for reflections with my loupe. I think I also need to hone less (a lot of metal is now on my synthetic stones).

Good luck
After you have done the ground work there shouldn't be much visible steel left on the finer stones. At 8k you shouldn't have any streakes on the stone, and the time spent should be minimal. You don't need to count strokes, but 10 to 15 strokes at 8k and the same or less is needed at 12k. If there is allot of swarf at 8k it might be a good idea to go back a step.

 

[Gamma]

Bevel setting is a simple process.
If someone needs 51 posts, tries, attempts, etc, to get it done, they're listening to the wrong people.
But given the location of that content, I'm surprised it only took 51 attempts.

I would suggest, instead, looking into success stories from results oriented drama free people. Once armed with the right knowledge, there is no reason to not have a bevel in a couple attempts. That's fact.

A loupe can be helpful, but not required. High magnification is constantly causing confusion.
I don't recall barber's manuals telling new barbers to use loupes and microscopes. I am sure some barbers did use at least a magnifying glass though.
I often use a 4x loupe. Rarely use the 10x or 15x. Unless I am doing stone comparisons the microscope sees more use on PCBs, ICs, etc these days.

Trust the stone, trust the steel, learn to feel. Always keep it simple.
Leave the ego trips for the microscope squad and their henchmen.

 

[sd_baker]

The longer this thread goes without pictures of the razor the more wild and crazy advice you're going to get, @Kingshave .

My naniwa stones have been lapped many times so Im confident their flatness is not the problem.

I wouldn't be so confident. I got a new stone today (not SS), and I drew grid and cleared it with diamond plate 12 times. I kept doing it because the steel ruler said it wasn't flat.

Finally I had to stop because I accidentally ground a hole into my finger tip.

I'm going to have to go to the glass and SiC for this stone. My point is the grid and erase is good for stones that you've proven flat in the past, but new stones might need more cycles.

Trust the steel ruler (prove it's flat first).

I can definately support that they get warped - my 12000 now suddenly was "bent like a banana" and broke in 2 halves....When I used the 12.000 for honing it was ok (it was not this stone´s fault).

I have nightmares about my warping SS12000. I guess they used to not have these problems so consistently. How did you break it exactly?

@TheBeast Also broke his SS12k. I must say, when I was lapping it and it was warping as I lapped, it I felt like I could break it, it was so frustrating. But my stone is still in the return window.

If you have a bevel setter other than SS, I would give that a shot. I love my SP1.5k.