Japanese razor

[Thebigspendur]

It's really all very simple. It's your razor and you can use it any way you wish. That has nothing to do with the proper way to use it.

I really don't understand why this issue keeps coming up again and again. This is something that has been resolved a long time ago but I guess not here. It's like the folks who think the pres is an alien.

If you have a Kamisori however you use it if you are happy then I'm happy for you.

My soapbox is worn away so I give up on it.

 

[professorchaos]

The "proper" usage may have been "decided" elsewhere, but clearly not here. Let's keep on topic and stop the condescension.

 

[JeffE]

I apologize to Big Spendur for the tone of my posts. No offense was intended.

I hope the OP ended up purchasing a nice kamisori from somewhere and that he enjoys the experience. It gets me upset when I see these razors for sale with an introduction like, "Used less than five times. I wanted to enjoy this razor but I just couldn't get the hang of it without slicing up my face, and so this beauty is for sale . . . " Maybe there's some kind of correct way of explaining that Big's way of shaving just isn't for beginners.

 

[Seraphim]

Inflamatory thread topics:

Politics

Religion

Abortion

Williams soap

The "correct" way to use a kamisori

 

[JeffE]

Incidentally, here's a real, traditional Japanese barber using a kamisori on a customer. Some observations:

1. He definitely uses both sides of the blade to cut WTG and ATG while he is shaving the neck, eyebrows and hairline.

2. He definitely uses just one side when he is shaving the face, BUT he is able to do so because he is able to recline the customer's chair to nearly horizontal and then shave in one direction while standing on one side of the customer's head and shave in the opposite direction while standing on the other side of the customer's head.

My original point still stands. If a kamisori is only "traditionally" or "properly" used on one side, it is equally true to that a kamisori is only "traditionally" or "properly" used by a barber who is shaving another person's face. In other words, it does not make any sense at all -- in the name of tradition or function -- to shave with only one side of the blade when you are shaving yourself, and even the traditional Japanese barber does not hesitate to turn the razor over when the alternative would be awkward or dangerous for the customer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccjDPinzlZ8&feature=player_detailpage

 

[JeffE]

Inflamatory thread topics:

Politics

Religion

Abortion

Williams soap

The "correct" way to use a kamisori

And you left out Gold Dollar razors?!?

 

[Seraphim]

And you left out Gold Dollar razors?!?

You're right!

But mostly that is inflamatory only on that "other" shaving forum...

 

[Seraphim]

Just FYI

 

[ESTEBE VERDE]

Well... many things were designed for one use and found others that even the inventor felt were superior.

In this case we are not under religious fatwah to use any razor other than we see fit.

Do what works best for you including experimenting.

And as always, YMMV!

 

[StillShaving]

Incidentally, here's a real, traditional Japanese barber using a kamisori on a customer. Some observations:

1. He definitely uses both sides of the blade to cut WTG and ATG while he is shaving the neck, eyebrows and hairline.

2. He definitely uses just one side when he is shaving the face, BUT he is able to do so because he is able to recline the customer's chair to nearly horizontal and then shave in one direction while standing on one side of the customer's head and shave in the opposite direction while standing on the other side of the customer's head.

My original point still stands. If a kamisori is only "traditionally" or "properly" used on one side, it is equally true to that a kamisori is only "traditionally" or "properly" used by a barber who is shaving another person's face. In other words, it does not make any sense at all -- in the name of tradition or function -- to shave with only one side of the blade when you are shaving yourself, and even the traditional Japanese barber does not hesitate to turn the razor over when the alternative would be awkward or dangerous for the customer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccjDPinzlZ8&feature=player_detailpage

Thanks for the link, I had not seen it before. But it looks like the barber is using a non-folding Feather of similar vintage that Mike_H recently posted here as a PIF: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2923557&postcount=1

So this particular example may not prove your point, but I am not trying to argue against your point. I think the asymmetric grind affects the honing more and how it feels when shaving since the angle of attack is slightly different from either side. It does feel more natural to hold the flat backside against ones's face, but both sides will cut and it is too hard to shave with just one side exclusively, at least for me.

 

[luvmysuper]

Inflamatory thread topics:

Politics

Religion

Abortion

Williams soap

The "correct" way to use a kamisori

And you left out Gold Dollar razors?!?

And the use of Coticles

 

[JeffE]

Thanks for the link, I had not seen it before. But it looks like the barber is using a non-folding Feather of similar vintage that Mike_H recently posted here as a PIF: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2923557&postcount=1

So this particular example may not prove your point, but I am not trying to argue against your point. I think the asymmetric grind affects the honing more and how it feels when shaving since the angle of attack is slightly different from either side. It does feel more natural to hold the flat backside against ones's face, but both sides will cut and it is too hard to shave with just one side exclusively, at least for me.

Yes, that must be the razor he's using, and if so, then the "evidence" isn't as conclusive as I was hoping. I was a little bit surprised, frankly, that a commercial barber in the United States would be using a traditional Japanese straight razor on a customer, because I understand that using a non-replaceable blade for shaving a customer is actually illegal for hygiene reasons, but now I see that I was mistaken.

Still, the video does make a different point about using both traditional and replaceable-blade Japanese razors -- it's quite easy to shave someone else with just one side of the blade against the face because you can change the place where you are standing while you are shaving the person. I've also seen a few videos of different people trying to shave themselves with just one side of the blade -- and it doesn't work. Specifically, you will see that the person doing the shaving does not actually shave WTG on one pass and ATG on another pass. Instead, the awkward angle that you are forced to hold the razor means that the very best you can do is XTG in one direction on certain parts of the face.

So what this actually comes down to is this:

One-sided technique=awkward, dangerous shaving positions; only XTG in one direction for certain parts of the face; smug satisfaction of using the same side of the razor that a traditional Japanese barber uses when shaving another person

Two-sided technique=natural shaving positions; WTG, ATG and XTG for the entire face; smug satisfaction of using the razor in a way that works best for shaving oneself

 

[Slartibartfast]

I remember JimR saying his Barber taught him to shave with only one side.

Here is a video he made a while back

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBDRP6tSOWo

 

[professorchaos]

Two-sided technique=natural shaving positions; WTG, ATG and XTG for the entire face; smug satisfaction of using the razor in a way that works best for shaving oneself

This, I think, is the crux of the matter.

 

[Seraphim]

Maybe kamisori are simply a flawed design.


Like a left handed monkey wrentch.

 

[Thebigspendur]

A weakness of the argument is you are assuming this guy is a master with this type of razor. How do you know that? How difficult is it to find a barber in the U.S who is competent with a straight? Yea his father was a barber and he is but there are plenty of guys like that in the U.S who aren't too hot when it comes to shaving.

Also, notice how high an angle he uses during most of the shave? Another issue for me is he uses the same razor to trim hair as for shaving without even stropping the razor. In the U.S back in the day barbers used a different razor for hair trimming then they did for shaving. Cutting hair dulls a razor pretty fast compared to shaving.

 

[ouch]

So which side of the blade are we supposed to use?

 

[Thebigspendur]

Just FYI

Sorry but your diagram is not correct. "Your" Japanese razor there is a microtome which is totally different. Also the Japanese blade at the edge is canted towards the writing side of the blade.

 

[JeffE]

Maybe kamisori are simply a flawed design.


Like a left handed monkey wrentch.

It isn't that it's flawed, it's just that the blade has a slight curve to it that we are not used to from using Western razors.

The curve means that, when the omote side is against the face, the razor is held at a wider angle relative to the surface of the skin. When the ura side is against the face, the razor is held at a shallower angle relative to the surface of the skin. Once you adjust for the curve of the blade, the shave that you get from either side of the razor IS IDENTICAL. It is not more "efficient" or "comfortable" or effective to shave using one side of the blade or the other. You merely have to hold the razor at the correct angle relative to the surface of the skin, and you will get the same shave no matter which side you use.

Now, to explain the change in angle in words makes it sound a little more complicated than it is. Most of us know just from feel whether we have the razor at the correct angle, and like many things, after you get used to shaving with the correct angle, it becomes second nature.

By the way, the OP was asking about where to get a decent kamisori for not too much money so that he could try out this type of shaving. All I can say is that the OP should check the B/S/T immediately as there is at least one fantastic bargain out there right now from a very reputable seller, a razor I would have bought myself if I had the cash right now.

 

[professorchaos]

You aren't cutting hair when you shave?