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Guys with Course Beards- Need help with 3rd DE selection

Hi there everyone!

New guy to these forums (although I have certainly popped on in over the years) and thought I would finally post here (I guess I am making up for that time with a huge post...sorry about that).

Well today I spent an exorbitant amount of time online with my bro in trying to decide what to do with a replacement razor for myself.

I am not new to DE safety razors, so time for a little history that might make you chuckle a bit... I hope you have a good read ;)

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I made the switch probably back in about 2004.


See, from the very beginning, I had struggled with my VERY course beard. I tried everything I knew about- Electric shavers were like torture devices- forever yanking out the hairs. I actually put up with that for quite few years before deciding to move to wet shaving - however that was limited to common supermarket flog which I had no end of struggles with.

This was about the time that things like multi-bladed Gillette Mach 3's were new and fast becoming all the rage and the push to more and more blades had started to become the common formfactor in all the big supermarket brands.

This was not good for a guy with a beard like mine. Clogs for me happened all too quickly. I could seldom do much of a short stroke down my face at all, before the cartridge would get so jammed up that no end of rinsing would help. Really the only viable way I found was to use a sewing pin, that I would wiggle to unjam the heads in effort to try to get through a single shave. It was so time consuming and annoying to say the least.

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This was all I knew of for shaving options, if you had asked me then. We had no dedicated shaving shops like we do now in Australia (however, even now the brands push cartridge style or electric in those stores - more often you do not see anything else). The only type of razor I vaguely knew of other than those I mentioned, was with the image I associated in my head with the 'Old West' and the barber's straight razor (Really, it goes to show how quickly big brands can create a mass-market for their preferred product in a single generation).

Anyhow in disgust and in hopelessness, I remember going online to eBay and by accident coming across Howie Woda's old eBay store. I was so surprised to see the Double-Edged razor. I had never seen one like that before. I had no idea about them at all and if it were not for Howie's his kind advice back then, I never would have moved to a DE safety razor (Though he must have thought me mad when I asked him about them lol). To be honest I thought they were some unknown seldom used archaic razor- more of an archaeological rarity or something from an antique store!

So my first razor was a Parker 90 R and I found it a breath of fresh air. I loved using the Parker 90 R and then my Dad came along one day and nicked it from me! Lol.

That was around 2011.


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For my replacement DE I decided, I wanted something more up-market and with perhaps a feature I thought would be even better for my beard coarseness - and adjustable style DE.

Seemed like such a good idea at the time- having seen an ad for it when making my first Googles for the replacement. Having the ability to adjust the blade so there was more aperture gap at the beginning when I had lots of growth to remove (Forget 5 ' o clock shadow - I am a midday shadow kind of guy!) and then narrower as I wanted the second or third pass on finishing sounded neat.

That was a really big mistake in the end... because for my Second razor I chose a Merkur Vision(though I am not sure if it was the first or second version). I ended up buying it though right before it was discontinued so I assume it was the 2000 variant.

That razor gave me nothing but headaches. No wonder they discontinued it! It would forever seize up, no matter how much I cleaned it, and there was no way to disassemble it fully to get to where the problem lay (well, there was..read on).

I stuck with that monstrosity of a razor, but it did over the intervening time, invariably get pushed aside more often then not.

So very often. the mechanism would seize again (and again and again...and again, again, again again ...ok like 95% of the time). I would be forced to either pull out the old electric shaver (shudders) or grab a single blade disposable Bic shaver, which in about 2013 I decided was a good idea to keep a pack in reserve for when the Merkur would be uncooperative and unexpectedly seize- and I didn't have the hour it normally took to get it working half-heartedly again.

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Jump forward to last week.

In a final act of sheer frustration (which says a lot, I am a very calm Vulcan like guy lol) I finally had my last straw with the Merkur Vision and grabbed pliers and goodness knows what else, in effort to get the mechanism working again- It had finally seized up so badly that regular maintenance or anything else I could think of didn't work, so I basically forcibly disassembled it.

I knew going it that it would never shave again, but I wanted to see why the F*** (excuse me) this thing was so unreliable. Found out why and if anyone is interested I can post pics. The mechanism -to quote my engineer designer bro- is 'the stupidest bit of design he has seen in years'. I can't say I disagree.

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Anyhow now I find myself stuck at what to decide to buy as a replacement and needing some advice.


I am not wanting to look at Merkur again (understandably) after the horrid experience with the razor and the woeful customer service I had (which was even worse given in Australia they have zero real presence).

I don't trust myself with a straight razor at all. I was toying with the idea of a slant blade DE, but, but from what I've been reading, may or may not be the best for my style beard hair. I would almost always knick myself very easily with a new blade on the Merkur Vision, not something I ever did with the Parker 90 R or the Bic disposables. This was regardless of how much prep I did to my beard beforehand, or time taken to use the Vision, or what setting it was on, though invariably it seemed to do it more at an average or wider setting (though I also wonder if it was damned from the start, the blade alignment to me always looked kind of off kilter too- not as bad as http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/17020-Merkur-Vision-Quality-Issues )

Looking around there has certainly been a renaissance in the sheer mass and variety of DE razors and far more on the market selling new ones, but it also is a case of 'too many options and too many views.'

That's where I really could do with some advice. I know the people here are Uber shave aficionados and might be able to at least help me narrow things down.

For guys with a very coarse beard with delicate skin, what do you find works well for you?

I am hesitant to overspend on a razor after the let down in the lack of value I saw in the Merkur Vision, and I would prefer to be looking at something in the $30 - $75 AUD range of the market. But all advice is welcome.

I am tempted to go back to Parker branded razors, but am open to other ideas- Just not Merkur. The IKon X3 has caught my eye given it seems to be almost as good as the more expensive ItalianBarber Wunderbar but yeah never used a slant so I have zero experience there.


I am even toying with bro perfecting a 3d printed one or trying one we saw today ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7qRIZnegRY ). We actually tried a quick and dirty prototype this afternoon after being inspired by GeofatBoy's review, but realized that will take a bit of time to get right and is more a long term thing. Prototype -A we made, was so safe a 5 year old could use it ROFL).

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers!


Gillette Slim adjustable
Gillette Fat Boy
Gillette Red Tip
RR Wunderbar

Feather blades. You have been at it awhile, no need to be scared of cutting yourself. Don't use pressure and you'll be fine. If I was you I would look at that Wunderbar or some sort of medium aggressive slant.
 
OK, pictures have been taken and I'll pop them up on the forum shortly.

Having a look at some of the suggestions above, I am still leaning towards something new.

The main reason is - postage costs. See, having had a look online, anything locally available in Australian stores/ecommerce is mainly Merkur or Parker branded. That really narrows any selection and basically totally wipes any suggestions from above to zilch (sorry I just can't bring myself to buy Merkur again).

Aussie sites are also limited to new and current manufactured stuff. So I think I might choose 2 of the mentioned razors, given how postage costs work shipping here, if I don't want to go with a local selection and go with overseas purchase and one of the suggested razors from you guys.

I did look at vintage stuff on ebay and here in the classifieds. With ebay however, I just worry I would be throwing my money away. No guarantees that what I get is good or useful as all I saw was sales from people selling them as personal sales and not a store on there dealing with them. I did see a refurbished vintage store or two online but at the pricepoints they want + postage it is way more than I am able to put to this. Looking at $120+ postage USD for those.

Right now, I am leaning towards a slant from Razorock German 37 Torsionshobel as the Razorock Stealth suggested above have been superseded.

The other one that seemed interesting was something from the Fatip range- Though question? Is there a stark difference across the Fattip Range? Not much in the way of info on the official site, but to my layman's eyes, it looked like most of their comb style bladeheads were identical??

With the suggested Fatip Piccolo or Grande to me it seemed it was the handles being where the difference lies. Probably that statement made a lot of you roll your eyes. Can't say I blame you if you did ;) Guess that is where all your experience and wisdom comes in from the feedback eh :)

Having never used a comb style head, I was wondering however if the Razorock 'Old Type- Open Comb' was similar then the Fatip or maybe a little 'gentler'? I did see that one and I was wondering given some of the reviews ive seen on both types of comb style just leave me wondering if I will have to bite the bullet and see if I am going to lacerate myself to pieces.

Anyhow going to post those breakdown pics of that Vision. Cheers for now.
 
You also might consider the v2 open comb head that Maggard Razors offers, along with one of their stainless steel handles. The MR5 and MR8 are my personal favorites.

Thanks, having a look at those too to see how they compare. Didn't come across them googling on my own.
 
With the suggested Fatip Piccolo or Grande to me it seemed it was the handles being where the difference lies. Probably that statement made a lot of you roll your eyes. Can't say I blame you if you did ;) Guess that is where all your experience and wisdom comes in from the feedback eh :)
All the Fatip open combs have the same head. I prefer the Piccolo because (although small) it feels just right, balance wise. All parts of Fatip razors are brass (no nasty Zamak). The Piccolo handle is solid vs. the Grande handle which is a tube.

Having never used a comb style head, I was wondering however if the Razorock 'Old Type- Open Comb' was similar then the Fatip or maybe a little 'gentler'? I did see that one and I was wondering given some of the reviews ive seen on both types of comb style just leave me wondering if I will have to bite the bullet and see if I am going to lacerate myself to pieces.
There have been many positive reports about the RR Old Type here. IMO it's just a pity that the cap and baseplate are Zamak.
 

Raven Koenes

My precious!
Having never used a comb style head, I was wondering however if the Razorock 'Old Type- Open Comb' was similar then the Fatip or maybe a little 'gentler'? I did see that one and I was wondering given some of the reviews ive seen on both types of comb style just leave me wondering if I will have to bite the bullet and see if I am going to lacerate myself to pieces.

Anyhow going to post those breakdown pics of that Vision. Cheers for now.

I'm not sure never tried razorock, but for the same price you can pick up a Fatip with the added bonus of it being an all brass razor. They are efficient and smooth razors. Their open combs are the same heads. The Piccolo has the smaller handle in diameter. The grande is a bit thicker. The Piccolo is heavier as the handle is solid brass and the Grande is hollow brass. Both have good weight and feel at least in my eyes. I've never tried their retros which seem to have longer handles.
 
OK- well think I am narrowing things down. I will go for something new I think. And maybe keep my eyes simply open in the future for flea-market bargains when it comes to do with vintage razors.

That being the case- Having tried to find the most economic purchase, with tiered weights for international shipping to Australia being cheaper- I will be getting Two razors as the difference in postage in getting one razor isn't worth it (and surprisingly for things like Fatips, the store I did find stocking them here or on ebay are 2-3 times the prices for those from the USA regardless of currency conversions).

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With that in mind, for Razor 1 I am thinking a Fatip with a comb style head-

Though I can't decide on whether to go with Piccolo, Grande or a longer thin handle type like the Retro.

Having used both the Parker 90 R (90 mm) and the Merkur Vision (115 mm), I am used to longer handle shavers. I don't know what the transition to smaller is like for control.

The Piccolo (70 g) and Grande (66 g) do not have that much weight between them (how different does 4 grams feel???). The Retro is lightest at 58 grams.

I wonder if the offset in length however just not being worth it, given the Retro is only 12 mm longer than the Grande. Also maybe the weight factor might be more important here (also the Retro I wonder may be slippery to handle when wet- looks so smooth).

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Razor 2- I am thinking will be a Razorock German 37 Torsionshobel so I can try out a slant style head that seems to have pretty reasonable reviews for performance at a good value price.
My thinking is- if I get the Razorock German 37 Torsionshobel that has a brass handle at 90 mm length and the 90 gram weight, and if worst came to worst I could Frankenrazor the brass handle from the Razorock with the Fatip Grande if I found the 78 mm on the Grande too short??

Thoughts? I have never Frankenrazored lol. So don't know if its a viable thing or even possible with these two for that scenario as I couldn't find specifics on the thread type and am assuming they would be probably the standardised thread size. I know this opens a whole new can of worms (weight and handling/balance), but I like to know my options.
Oh and again thanks for all the advice that keeps coming in! I really appreciate it. I also find it kind of ironic that this has become so complex. When most of society simply walks down the supermarket and grabs what the Ads tell them is vogue for shaving, this experience has really opened my eyes into the wider hidden complexities to the world of shaving - even moreso then when I made the switch to DE's in 2004 ;)
 
Thoughts? I have never Frankenrazored lol. So don't know if its a viable thing or even possible with these two for that scenario as I couldn't find specifics on the thread type and am assuming they would be probably the standardised thread size.
Most razor handles have an M5 thread (the US 10-32 is compatible). Fatips have M4.5 threads. Some standard M5 type handles WILL work with the Fatips, but eventually they'll bugger up the threads (IMO).
 

Raven Koenes

My precious!
Though I can't decide on whether to go with Piccolo, Grande or a longer thin handle type like the Retro.

Having used both the Parker 90 R (90 mm) and the Merkur Vision (115 mm), I am used to longer handle shavers. I don't know what the transition to smaller is like for control.

The Piccolo (70 g) and Grande (66 g) do not have that much weight between them (how different does 4 grams feel???). The Retro is lightest at 58 grams.

I wonder if the offset in length however just not being worth it, given the Retro is only 12 mm longer than the Grande. Also maybe the weight factor might be more important here (also the Retro I wonder may be slippery to handle when wet- looks so smooth).

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I can understand being used to the longer handle. So, the retro might be a good option minus a few grams. The thing is when I shave with my Fatip's I don't notice the handle at all which in my book is a good thing.
 
Vintage adjustable - Gillette Slim for $25-30 in great shape
Vintage open comb - Gillette New SC for $15-20 in great shape
 
Most razor handles have an M5 thread (the US 10-32 is compatible). Fatips have M4.5 threads. Some standard M5 type handles WILL work with the Fatips, but eventually they'll bugger up the threads (IMO).

Hmm that's interesting to know.

This bit of advice however did lead me to find the definitive thread that's already here for Fatip compatible handles so that is good too :)
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...and-handle-name-thread-post-all-here!!/page19

I know it was last updated before the Razorocks so doesn't answer the question so I wonder what thread the Razorock uses? Might try looking about on here, or Googling later or maybe contacting them if all else fails.

Good thing is, with those thread dimensions I can custom design a 3d handle and have it SLS printed in metal if I really need to and can't find something suitable, or even a quick plastic run on Bro's 3d printer. Hopefully it won't come to that for the extra outlay but good to know options.

I can understand being used to the longer handle. So, the retro might be a good option minus a few grams. The thing is when I shave with my Fatip's I don't notice the handle at all which in my book is a good thing.

That's the thing I guess. Though I do wonder if the Retro might be that bit slippery in comparison.
 

Raven Koenes

My precious!
That's the thing I guess. Though I do wonder if the Retro might be that bit slippery in comparison.

Not sure? Probably not as slippery a razor as an EJ. Too bad your allowance for a razor won't spring for a Joris. The Joris head is made by Fatip. The handle is 11.43 centimeters and the Joris weighs out at 102 grams. The Fatip open comb head shave exceptionally well. It does seem whatever choice you make you have the means and the info. with the handle thing figured out.
 
[MENTION=112365]LightRays[/MENTION] I've been using the Razorock German 37 for the past two months and would definitely recommend it for a course beard. It's got a decent amount of blade feel but is still very smooth. It easily cuts few a couple days growth with ease. For $20 its not perfect with some slight wiggle in the blade alignment but its got a great handle with good weight. Enjoy your new razors!
 
I had a Piccolo and though a great razor, found the handle too short for my taste. Found a cheap Grande handle and filled it with some lead and epoxy. Much better length and weight.
 
Too bad your allowance for a razor won't spring for a Joris. The Joris head is made by Fatip.

I had a look at those. I guess the issue is, springing for something like that at about $200 USD plus postage would be a heck of a lot- and a worry given I have never used a comb razor. I would hate to spend that much and find that I end up having issues with the style of razor head. I think I am still leaning to try something like a Fatip to get an idea of the suitability of the comb head style for my beard type, but will stick to something more in the price range of the Fatip rather then blow the bank for now.



Remember it is not just about thread size. The diameter of the threaded portion of the handle comes into it (hence some Ikon handles fitting and some not. They are all the same thread size.

Not quite sure what you fully mean here. Do you mean that if the handle's diameter surrounding the thread it is like too wide, it will but up against the bottom plate underside and stop a connection?? Sorry for my noob ignorance :/



@LightRays I've been using the Razorock German 37 for the past two months and would definitely recommend it for a course beard. It's got a decent amount of blade feel but is still very smooth. It easily cuts few a couple days growth with ease. For $20 its not perfect with some slight wiggle in the blade alignment but its got a great handle with good weight. Enjoy your new razors!

That’s the whole crux of it really. Having never used a slant razor either, I don’t want to go over the top lest it be really unsuitable for me. I would expect the cheaper versions to be not as great as a more expensive models for any brand in most things, but I guess the aim here is to try to figure out what might be viable and pass as a usable razor and perhaps later upgrade if I find I want to. Bit like taking a nibble before choosing to order a full banquet :)




I had a Piccolo and though a great razor, found the handle too short for my taste. Found a cheap Grande handle and filled it with some lead and epoxy. Much better length and weight.

Hmm well that is an option I did not consider. Certainly a novel solution.


Again thanks guys for the continued feedback and suggestions.
 
Mate, it sounds like you have made up your mind, so I may be too late. But trust me, get a Rockwell 6S. It's stainless steel, adjustable, basically 6 razors in one. I know postage is a killer (I'm in Aus too) but this is the only razor you need. I have 12 razors and use this more than any other. Like you I have a course beard. If I want a great, no thinking shave I use it on 4. If I want a superb BBS that will last 36 hours I use it at 5 or 6.
It seems like a lot to stump up, but it is stainless steel and if you don't like it you can get much of it back selling it in Australia.
 
I found that the correct blade made the difference for me. Something sharp and smooth like a Polsilver. As far as razor suggestions go, an efficient open comb like a Gillette NEW LC or if you can find one a Deluxe.
 
Mate, it sounds like you have made up your mind, so I may be too late. But trust me, get a Rockwell 6S.

It actually was late- by about 10 minutes would you believe! Not to worry, but thanks for the input regardless.

One thing that has struck me with B & B is how well this online community communicates with one another. Credit to you all, not all online forums are like this in my experience.

PSmith, I did look at the Rockwell for completeness this evening after your suggestion. I had briefly looked at it earlier, but also didn't realise till your post it was adjustable as much, having those flippable shave base plates. It's not the end of the world now to have maybe considered it, but now the order has been placed, well I still hope the selection today went well. It is certainly an interesting concept to an adjustable and does away with mechanisms that can seize. Maybe - who knows what the future will bring???

I'll tell you how it all went down in the end...


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Well this morning I spoke to my brother and filled him in on how things were going, discussed a request by santamariasteve about the Merkur Vision Zinc Oxide issue (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...-Vision-forced-teardown?p=8527129#post8527129), and then we had a really good look again online at razor shops in trying to figure out the best way forward.

In the end he decided he wanted to try mixing things up a little himself, and wanted to try a DE razor. Briefly he told me he had borrowed the Parker 90 R a few times to see what it was like (LOL That razor has certainly gotten around since Dad nicked it on me hehe. Who knew!!!) He has been using a combination of regular supermarket cartridge types (At the moment a Gillette Pro Glide Flexiball Razor) and a Parker SR1 Barber Cut-throat Razor.

Having mentioned the two DE razors I was leaning towards: the Razorock German 37 Torsionshobel and the Fatip Grande Open Comb in Chrome, it narrowed down the choice of store to the Italian Barbers for being able to ship both brand's razors with cheapest combined shipping.

In the end he really like the look of their simple Razorock Quick Change DE-Razor. I think he really liked the look of the handle on it especially, so picked that.

Then he wanted to look to making the addition to wanting to try some of their shaving creams and shave oils. You can imagine where that went ROFL! We ended up going up to the next shipping price tier!

I think it was a good choice hopefully because I have to admit, I was impressed upon seeing the ingredients listing in their Italian Barber/Razorock range (which turns out are the same guys lol. Got to love diversified unilateral branding these days). I was expecting tonnes of parabens and petrochemicals and artificial dubious stuff, not the natural range of ingredients they instead used to make them. So I ordered two of their on-sale Razorock shave creams and thought i'd give them a shot in addition to what he wanted in creams, and a pack of variety razor blades. He actually had quite a few of them already - but wanted to try the Voskhod and Lord brands.

I don't know what I will end up using that will work best in the razors, but it looks like I will have quite a variety to pick from, in his current collection and the new ones he suggested we order today.

I can't blame him though for going a wee bit overboard. In the end it was far more economical to buy in one lot then make smaller repeat purchases later- one of the unavoidable banes of buying from overseas. We ended up grabbing a Razorock Teck II in addition, just to max out as much as we could fit into the order and fill up the remaining space for that size parcel we had payed for. Upside is, in the end we will split the postage and it will come to what it would have been for my part, just for my purchase of the two originally planned razors on their own.

So all in all, I am looking forward to seeing how they go when they get here in about a months time. I'm happy with the selection I think, given all I read - but the proof will come down to it when they are finally used. Will certainly pop up a post or two on here as to how we go.

Cheers everyone and thanks for all the great feedback and support/advice along the way. It was very much appreciated!

Happy Shaving :)
 
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