General Motors has finally lost it!!
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Ah, just ignore this post.
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True dat LimeCat (referring to the employment statement). And that employment extends beyond the U.S. borders. The "foreign car" is always a bit curious. I've had Fords built in Canada and a VW built in Mexico. Some Toyotas are built in Texas, some Nissans are built in Tennessee
I see a "need" for GM and Ford to be viable entities. IMO, both could probably benefit from some streamlining, specifically dropping some duplication. According to many reports, the American automakers have made some significant strides in the quality of their products.
I haven't looked at the Segway/GM deal, but could it be that GM is trying to respond to the media's call for more efficient vehicles which depend less on fossil fuels?
They also rent them to tourist in downtown Austin.
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I know this is far fetched and alarmist but it is nice to have traditionally American owned companies producing American products if we ever have another total war. Going to be a little tough getting all the stuff we have become accostomed to getting from China if we ever go to war with them. Also if we want to maintain our status as superpower and world leader it would behoove the United States to be a manufacturing based economy versus a service ecomomy. Once again alarmist but we certainly don't wnat to see the loss of the trades that manufacturing requires i.e. tool and die makers, machinists, etc but it seems like that is the direction we are heading and it's going to be awful tough to get our country manufacturing without them.
Reason #1 why you will never see me riding a Segway:
I know this is far fetched and alarmist but it is nice to have traditionally American owned companies producing American products if we ever have another total war. Going to be a little tough getting all the stuff we have become accostomed to getting from China if we ever go to war with them. Also if we want to maintain our status as superpower and world leader it would behoove the United States to be a manufacturing based economy versus a service ecomomy. Once again alarmist but we certainly don't wnat to see the loss of the trades that manufacturing requires i.e. tool and die makers, machinists, etc but it seems like that is the direction we are heading and it's going to be awful tough to get our country manufacturing without them.
I agree with you, America needs to have some products of our own b/c eventually they will cut us off! (but for now, I'll let the other Americans buy the GM/Ford/Chrys. cars and I will buy a foreign for the meantime.
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Ugh this is dumb. American made cars are crap since they overpay their employees compared to the foreign car makers. The foreign cars are engineered better too. Look at a foreign car vs an American car 10 yrs later, the foreign quality wins out (9 times out of 10).. I like the looks of the American cars and they always have good electronic things in them but the quality of them is garbage. I have owned a Chevy, Chrysler, Jeep and all had tons of parts breaking. Never have that with my Honda, Acura or Toyota. I wish I could support my own country's product. Let the companies fail, they won't be missed. I'll stick to buying a Honda/Toyota.
Don't take this the wrong way, but you're first line is a logical fallacy. "Overpaying" employees results in higher costs, not lower quality. In fact, an argument could be made that employees will be more cognizant of quality because they want to keep those high paying jobs.
The worst car I have ever owned was a Chrysler Cordoba, closely followed by a Ford. OTOH, I owned a basic Chevy that gave over 100K miles of service before sacrificing itself as it was T-Boned by a cab.
Hondas and Toyotas are produced in the US. (Oh and about 6 years ago, Honda was selling CRV's made in the UK. Sterling anyone?) Subaru has a plant here too.
When Chrysler was owned by Benz, I referred to it as the German owned American Company making cars in Mexico and Canada.
The problem with the Big Three was a lack of foresight and vision, of concentrating strictly on trucks, of lacking paying attention to quality of parts and treating their labor as expendable tools, not as human beings concerned with the product or with a vested interest in the company. Just my two cents.
Furthermore, the statement implied that the American automakers grossly overpaid wages as compared to the foreign automakers. Also incorrect. The difference in associated wage costs is associated with "legacy" costs not hourly wages. Now it certainly could be argued that the executives were grossly overpaid based on their job performance.
Another fallacy is the intimation that Honda and Toyota are bullet-proof and without their share of mechanical woes. Nothing can be more incorrect. Check out the entire generation of Hondas with bad automatic transmissions and the Toyotas plagued by engine sludge.
Citizensoldierny, you suggest that we should be a manufacturing based vs. service based? We could probably dredge up some support that says we should go back to an agrarian society. After all a "superpower" must eat.
Segways are all over the place in Chicago. Besides, I don't think this is really meant to be a car replacement. It is more a proof of concept probably for battery and electric motor development. I can see these things being useful in a variety of places though ranging from golf courses to warehouses to airports. Are you going to drive one to and from work? Probably not, but could you drive one across a terminal or at your next golf outing? Sure.
That's true, but what the guy who posted this meant is true. He was trying express how American cars pale in comparison with Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus, which they do. While you're correct that these Japanese cars have their problems, they're still much more reliable than American cars. Here's a link.
Hey! Watch it. I am quite excited about the new Camero. I just have to wait ten years for them to be in my price range.
The Camaro should never have been dropped from the lineup and the new one should have been in showrooms 4 years ago.
but but....what about the rich corinthian leather
Cars like the Camaro are not the answer. Yeah, it's nice to keep the line going, but those cars are for a niche market and will not save the big 3.
I wish they would stop making the same car and selling it under different brands. I remember when GM needed an entry luxury sedan to compete with BMW 3 series, Acura and others. They took the Chevy Crapolier and rebadged it as the Cadillac Cimarron.
I wish they would stop making the same car and selling it under different brands. I remember when GM needed an entry luxury sedan to compete with BMW 3 series, Acura and others. They took the Chevy Crapolier and rebadged it as the Cadillac Cimarron.
I find employees repeatedly pressing the same button while the machine does the work for them to not take a lot of effort; I find the employees to be fairly overpaid but that's my $.03. It's more of the Union issue... The car companies without the Union labor issue are sitting in a better, more flexible position, but you are right, no car company is invincible, not Honda or Toyota. If you have expensive SG&A costs, then you either have to start the car off at a higher price or reduce mfr'ing costs (scrimp on quality) to compete with the competition. I don't know what it is about them, apparently it is all about the engineering then. Over several years the American quality for me tended to degrade, while foreign for me have tended to have better interior, better resale, and better emissions/efficiency. And you are right, the Chrysler products were the worst of the bunch for quality. The Chevy was the best of the American products. And yes all the car companies are all mfr'ed here in the states but the parent companies are foreign...
Again, I am optimistic about America in the longrun, but pessimistic in the shortrun as I see the direction our economy is moving....especially with thinking any government needs to be involved with our economics. I would love let free market/capitalism work and let inefficient companies fail so that some investors could buy up individual parts of the company/restructure the companies to be more efficient. That would help the Union/labor issue.
sorry about the rant LOL
I won't get into the politics of union wages but suffice it to say I have a friend whose dad worked 32 years in a Delco battery plant. GM pay, pension, etc. all the way. He had some choice opinions about the way the union protected certain "workers" and he used the term loosely.
On the other hand, this whole tripe about American vehicles = junk is just plain silly. I will not debate the small cars which seems to be the most contentious items. I will however defend our 2004 Buick Rainier unabashedly. We have had it for four of it's years of existence and other than brakes on the front, we have done exactly ZERO repair work on it. Oh sure, maintenance, fluids, or whatever but NO breakage repairs. GM and Ford know exactly how to build trucks. I for one would like to see them cede the small car market to whomever and concentrate on what they do best. It is hard for people who live on our Eastern seaboards to comprehend what it is like to have to drive the distances we do out here in cattle country. K.C. to Denver is nearly 600 miles. Try driving his in your Altima. My wife and I owned one till it was totaled by a Jeep Grand Cherokee. The Cherokee was actually pushed into her trunk by another car which rear ended the Jeep. Yep, about 60mph and if that car would have hit our Altima directly it would have made me a widower in about a microsecond. It totaled the Jeep too but the driver hopped out of it with nary a scratch. Sorry, keep your cracker boxes all to yourselves. Give me something with a frame. BTW, it was a Toyota car that caused the wreck. How the guy got out of that one without serious injury is beyond me. The car was a pile of rubble.
As to the Rainier, we bought it when gas spiked four years ago and SUVs plummeted in price. We bought it for about half of it's $40k retail. My only regret is that we will likely not be able to buy another since they are expensive. Oh and mpg? It makes about 16 city and TWENTY ONE highway. That is about four less than the Altima which put my legs to sleep on 180 mile trip to Omaha to visit the zoo. Never again. The Rainier is like driving a baby Escalade. Just heavenly quiet on the road and plenty of room and comfort. The wife loves the heated seats. Again guys, no easy answers but there are reasons other than ego that makes people buy these types of vehicles. I make no apologies for it.
Regards, Todd
On the other hand, this whole tripe about American vehicles = junk is just plain silly. I will not debate the small cars which seems to be the most contentious items. I will however defend our 2004 Buick Rainier unabashedly. We have had it for four of it's years of existence and other than brakes on the front, we have done exactly ZERO repair work on it. Oh sure, maintenance, fluids, or whatever but NO breakage repairs. GM and Ford know exactly how to build trucks. I for one would like to see them cede the small car market to whomever and concentrate on what they do best. It is hard for people who live on our Eastern seaboards to comprehend what it is like to have to drive the distances we do out here in cattle country. K.C. to Denver is nearly 600 miles. Try driving his in your Altima. My wife and I owned one till it was totaled by a Jeep Grand Cherokee. The Cherokee was actually pushed into her trunk by another car which rear ended the Jeep. Yep, about 60mph and if that car would have hit our Altima directly it would have made me a widower in about a microsecond. It totaled the Jeep too but the driver hopped out of it with nary a scratch. Sorry, keep your cracker boxes all to yourselves. Give me something with a frame. BTW, it was a Toyota car that caused the wreck. How the guy got out of that one without serious injury is beyond me. The car was a pile of rubble.
As to the Rainier, we bought it when gas spiked four years ago and SUVs plummeted in price. We bought it for about half of it's $40k retail. My only regret is that we will likely not be able to buy another since they are expensive. Oh and mpg? It makes about 16 city and TWENTY ONE highway. That is about four less than the Altima which put my legs to sleep on 180 mile trip to Omaha to visit the zoo. Never again. The Rainier is like driving a baby Escalade. Just heavenly quiet on the road and plenty of room and comfort. The wife loves the heated seats.
Again guys, no easy answers but there are reasons other than ego that makes people buy these types of vehicles. I make no apologies for it. Regards, Todd
Francisco d'Anconia might join you.
Phog Allen, you have to realize that not all Japanese cars are great. You mentioned the Nissan, which ranks below average in terms of reliability, according to J.D. Power. Buick, however, ranks up there with Lexus and Toyota.
Actually if you check your own link, you will find that it does not exactly support your premise. You will find Buick and Mercury right up there with Jaguar and Lexus. Lincoln and Cadillac right there with Infinity and Acura.
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/quality-ratings-by-brand/sortcolumn-1/ascending/page-#page-anchor
The 2008 Initial Quality ratings show the "Americans" right there in the mix.
"Much more reliable" is an old perception and does not necessarily reflect the realities of today, if only based on these surveys.
I certainly DO understand it. It is why I get sick of the America bashing. To hear many of these experts on the car industry, America couldn't build a go kart. I suggest they seriously check out the Cadillac brand. There, is a world class car brand. Expensive as any other though.
Regards, Todd
Edited to add; by experts I was not referring to our members. Only the press who cover such things.
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