Fili love what makes it so good!
- Thread starter Heespharm
- Start date
I was reading this post yesterday and decided to use my Filli for the day's shave. I was amazed at how sharp it is but when I was finished I had an abnormal amount of irritation and tiny nicks. Especially around the neck and chin where shave a second pass upward. I shave full two pass shave every morning with a straight.
When I got a Riga razor I'd read on B&B that some people find them two sharp and that more attention to angle helps. My Filli is the only razor that gives me this issue. I'm looking for a solution. My thought is to hone it with three strips of electric tape on the spine to soften the grind angle, but am thinking there might be a better solution. My other thought is to ensure I use a high-glycerin soap or pre-shave oil.
When I got a Riga razor I'd read on B&B that some people find them two sharp and that more attention to angle helps. My Filli is the only razor that gives me this issue. I'm looking for a solution. My thought is to hone it with three strips of electric tape on the spine to soften the grind angle, but am thinking there might be a better solution. My other thought is to ensure I use a high-glycerin soap or pre-shave oil.
Before changing anything, how was the blade honed? I have been told that some edges are too sharp to shave with. I have honed one or two blades with a Shapton 16k and found them to be too sharp. I took them down on an Oozuku jnat and they shaved very comfortably. I think three layers of tape is a bit severe.
I don’t know if your killing your edges prior to honing each time but you might try killing them on the edge of a stone, coffee cup, drinking glass, etc. and see if that helps before resorting to so much tape.
“I was reading this post yesterday and decided to use my Filli for the day's shave. I was amazed at how sharp it is but when I was finished I had an abnormal amount of irritation and tiny nicks. Especially around the neck and chin where shave a second pass upward.“
This does not sound like an edge that is too sharp. It sounds like a rough, micro chipped edge
Take a sharpie and run it on the edge very lightly, so the edge is biting into the felt tip. The felt tip should glide on the edge and you will feel the slightest microchip snag the felt. You can also use a Qtip.
If it is a large Filarmonica 14, it is easy for the blade to flex, if too much pressure is used. The back of the bevel acts as a fulcrum and lift the edge off the stone. It does not take much pressure to cause this problem on wide thinly ground blades.
3 layers of tape is a lot of tape and will also make the razor squishy on the stone, also creating an uneven bevel.
Unless you are using high grit film, .3um or .10um paste I doubt the edge is too sharp.
Drop back to 1 layer of tape and re-set the bevel on an 8k, watch your pressure. Make sure you are honing to the edge, look straight down on the edge with magnification to ensure you have a fully set bevel.
Ink will tell you when the steeper bevel has been removed. If your bevels were flat, probably 50-60 laps on a good 8k. Joint the edge on a corner of the stone with just the weight of the blade, you will also feel any micro chips if you pay attention and do not use too much pressure when jointing. Jointing will cut off any micro chips and create a straight edge, you then just need to bring the bevels back to meeting.
Adding tape does not make an edge less sharp. If you want to calm an edge, stropping on Chromium Oxide is a good method.
This does not sound like an edge that is too sharp. It sounds like a rough, micro chipped edge
Take a sharpie and run it on the edge very lightly, so the edge is biting into the felt tip. The felt tip should glide on the edge and you will feel the slightest microchip snag the felt. You can also use a Qtip.
If it is a large Filarmonica 14, it is easy for the blade to flex, if too much pressure is used. The back of the bevel acts as a fulcrum and lift the edge off the stone. It does not take much pressure to cause this problem on wide thinly ground blades.
3 layers of tape is a lot of tape and will also make the razor squishy on the stone, also creating an uneven bevel.
Unless you are using high grit film, .3um or .10um paste I doubt the edge is too sharp.
Drop back to 1 layer of tape and re-set the bevel on an 8k, watch your pressure. Make sure you are honing to the edge, look straight down on the edge with magnification to ensure you have a fully set bevel.
Ink will tell you when the steeper bevel has been removed. If your bevels were flat, probably 50-60 laps on a good 8k. Joint the edge on a corner of the stone with just the weight of the blade, you will also feel any micro chips if you pay attention and do not use too much pressure when jointing. Jointing will cut off any micro chips and create a straight edge, you then just need to bring the bevels back to meeting.
Adding tape does not make an edge less sharp. If you want to calm an edge, stropping on Chromium Oxide is a good method.
I'm glad I posted the issue and my thoughts on how to address it before getting out the stones.
As far as how the blade was honed. I honed it with a single layer of tape on the spine taking it back to a 2K & 5K to remove a couple minor chips/pitting, then 8k then 12k. I then gave it 20 light strops on linen with chromium oxide and the 50 on buffalo hide. I try to be light handed on my stropping.
I usually use my thumb nail to test the edge, running it along to feel that the full edge bites on the nail (rather than glides or catches) and has no remaining nicks. Just now, when running a Qtip down the length it does have a bit of roughness on parts of the edge that I don't feel with my thumbnail.
I have to admit that I'm challenged by the term "Joint the edge". I've googled the term and my understanding is that this is to make the edge straight. I have placed the razor against a recently levelled stone in front of a light. It has an exceptionally subtle smile that rolls into the rounded toe and heal. Given that it is a full 16/16ths Filli 14 I suspect that this was the shape it was when new and not the result of wear. (By subtle, I mean very subtle and no concave nor absolute flush section)
Based on the combined advice above, this evening I'll try the following:
- ever-so-lightly kill the edge on the side of my 8K stone.
- putting on a single layer of tape (same as previous honings)
- Honing it on my 8K & 12K stones without much pressure
- Stropping it on a combination of linen & chromium oxide them leather
As far as how the blade was honed. I honed it with a single layer of tape on the spine taking it back to a 2K & 5K to remove a couple minor chips/pitting, then 8k then 12k. I then gave it 20 light strops on linen with chromium oxide and the 50 on buffalo hide. I try to be light handed on my stropping.
I usually use my thumb nail to test the edge, running it along to feel that the full edge bites on the nail (rather than glides or catches) and has no remaining nicks. Just now, when running a Qtip down the length it does have a bit of roughness on parts of the edge that I don't feel with my thumbnail.
I have to admit that I'm challenged by the term "Joint the edge". I've googled the term and my understanding is that this is to make the edge straight. I have placed the razor against a recently levelled stone in front of a light. It has an exceptionally subtle smile that rolls into the rounded toe and heal. Given that it is a full 16/16ths Filli 14 I suspect that this was the shape it was when new and not the result of wear. (By subtle, I mean very subtle and no concave nor absolute flush section)
Based on the combined advice above, this evening I'll try the following:
- ever-so-lightly kill the edge on the side of my 8K stone.
- putting on a single layer of tape (same as previous honings)
- Honing it on my 8K & 12K stones without much pressure
- Stropping it on a combination of linen & chromium oxide them leather
Do not guess. Measure the bevel angle. Plenty of threads about this. You might also want to consider sending the razor to a honer that is respected on Badger & Blade. I see that you are in Canada. Unfortunately, I don't know much about honers in Canada.
I would omit the chromium oxide. Filiarmonicas have a nice grind and I don't think you need the chromium oxide. My filarmonicas shave very well and I have never applied any paste. I strop on clean leather.
Yea, microchips. Likely the bevel was not fully set. A fully set bevel is where the bevels are flat from edge to back of the bevel, in the correct bevel angle, and are meeting fully from heel to toe.
Ideally the bevel should be set at a low grit stone, 1k, (2k in your case) then polished with the progression improving the straight and uniformity of the edge.
If you hone a smiling edge with straight strokes, you will not hone the heel and toe.
Jointing is not Killing an edge. Killing is removing an edge and usually removing chips with pressure.
Jointing is lightly running the edge on a corner of the stone to remove or straighten the burr or straighten a micro chipped edge. Jointing is done on a stone corner to cut off the burr and make the edge uniform.
Once irregular flashing, or micro chipping have been removed it is simply a matter of bringing the bevels to meeting fully. Jointing is used to make a uniform edge, not necessarily making a “straight” edge, but to straighten an edge.
Look at a 1k edge after honing from the side, the edge will look all jagged, even though the bevels can be meeting. As you go through a progression of finer stones the edge gets straighter.
But if you want to max out a 1k edge, and you should, Joint a finished 1k edge straight no chips or flashing, (micro burr) and bring the bevels back to meeting again, (it should only take 10-30 laps depending on your stone and technique) and see how straight, no burr or flashing you can get a 1k edge. This will make the edge stronger and straighter, which will shave better and last longer.
Hone the heel with heel leading X strokes and the toe with a rolling X stroke, more like a J. The cross stroke need only be about a ¼ to half inch, not a corner-to-corner X, this will drop the heel off the stone within the first inch of travel.
TPT is not an accurate test of a full bevel set, you can pass a TNT and not have a fully set bevel, as in your case.
Look at it. Look straight down on the edge, with magnification. If you see any shiny reflections, that is a chip or where the bevels are not meeting. Joint the edge and reset the bevels until you do not see any shiny reflections on the edge.
Here is a photo of a near fully set bevel and a fully set bevel. Also, photos of a1k,4k, 8k and 12k bevel. If your bevels do not look like these at each stage, you need to go back to the stones.
Almost set
Fully set
1k
4k
8k
12k
Ideally the bevel should be set at a low grit stone, 1k, (2k in your case) then polished with the progression improving the straight and uniformity of the edge.
If you hone a smiling edge with straight strokes, you will not hone the heel and toe.
Jointing is not Killing an edge. Killing is removing an edge and usually removing chips with pressure.
Jointing is lightly running the edge on a corner of the stone to remove or straighten the burr or straighten a micro chipped edge. Jointing is done on a stone corner to cut off the burr and make the edge uniform.
Once irregular flashing, or micro chipping have been removed it is simply a matter of bringing the bevels to meeting fully. Jointing is used to make a uniform edge, not necessarily making a “straight” edge, but to straighten an edge.
Look at a 1k edge after honing from the side, the edge will look all jagged, even though the bevels can be meeting. As you go through a progression of finer stones the edge gets straighter.
But if you want to max out a 1k edge, and you should, Joint a finished 1k edge straight no chips or flashing, (micro burr) and bring the bevels back to meeting again, (it should only take 10-30 laps depending on your stone and technique) and see how straight, no burr or flashing you can get a 1k edge. This will make the edge stronger and straighter, which will shave better and last longer.
Hone the heel with heel leading X strokes and the toe with a rolling X stroke, more like a J. The cross stroke need only be about a ¼ to half inch, not a corner-to-corner X, this will drop the heel off the stone within the first inch of travel.
TPT is not an accurate test of a full bevel set, you can pass a TNT and not have a fully set bevel, as in your case.
Look at it. Look straight down on the edge, with magnification. If you see any shiny reflections, that is a chip or where the bevels are not meeting. Joint the edge and reset the bevels until you do not see any shiny reflections on the edge.
Here is a photo of a near fully set bevel and a fully set bevel. Also, photos of a1k,4k, 8k and 12k bevel. If your bevels do not look like these at each stage, you need to go back to the stones.
Almost set
Fully set
1k
4k
8k
12k
Things got busy this evening so I didn't pull out the stones. I did however pull out an old 17X Jeweler's lope and looked up and down the blade edge under a light. Wow, lots of microchips. I went back and looked a second time with just a large magnifying glass and a desk light for reflecting the edge. Now that I knew where the chips are I could readily see them with the lower magnification.
Originally, the razor had been quite clean with the exception of a slightly rusted edge. I was reluctant to hone too much and once the edge was biting into my thumbnail and felt smooth I had assumed that I got all of the chips out. I had also assumed that with all the discussion of how sharp Fillis can be, that my irritation was just a matter of the blade being too sharp. I guess it's time to invest in a magnifying camera.
I've included a pic that shows how subtle the smile is. I've had lots of practice on getting a consistent bevel on smiling blades, but apparently not for spotting remaining microchips.
Originally, the razor had been quite clean with the exception of a slightly rusted edge. I was reluctant to hone too much and once the edge was biting into my thumbnail and felt smooth I had assumed that I got all of the chips out. I had also assumed that with all the discussion of how sharp Fillis can be, that my irritation was just a matter of the blade being too sharp. I guess it's time to invest in a magnifying camera.
I've included a pic that shows how subtle the smile is. I've had lots of practice on getting a consistent bevel on smiling blades, but apparently not for spotting remaining microchips.
Success! I honed away the remaining chips (2K, 5K, 8K & 12 K). Sorry, to EastCoast30, but I have a client meeting this morning, so I didn't experiment with skipping the chromium oxide. (You've got me intrigued so on my next project, an MK32, I will skip the CrO and see how it feels.)
It remains one of my sharpest razors and nicest handling 1 inchers (or at least very very close to 16/16ths), but it is now a lot less irritating. I appreciate all of the advice. I had really assumed that the irritation was purely the result of it's sharpness.
It remains one of my sharpest razors and nicest handling 1 inchers (or at least very very close to 16/16ths), but it is now a lot less irritating. I appreciate all of the advice. I had really assumed that the irritation was purely the result of it's sharpness.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Dull straight razors cause irritation, not sharp ones.
Be careful of rusty edges, rust can go deep and can also be an early indicator of cell rot. White or yellow celluloid scales are notorious for cell rot.
Once the edge has rusted, you may need to remove more metal than usual to get to good solid steel. If the steel is bad, it will microchip after a couple of uses, stropping flexes the edge and if weak it will chip.
If you see any light red rust on the polished steel, it is likely Cell rot, keep an eye on that razor.
The razor in the photo looks like it has a slight warp, could be the photo angle. Put the edge on a flat surface, with light behind it to check.
Chrome Oxide will not hurt a razor, a Chrome Oxide pasted 12k edge is a good smooth shaving edge.
If the razor is still not comfortable, check the edge for microchipping a Filarmonica 14 should shave smoothly with no irritation if stropped well, even better off of Chrome Oxide.
Paste is subjective, but no question that it can fine tune an edge. .25 CBN can really pump up an edge.
Nice looking razor, enjoy.
Once the edge has rusted, you may need to remove more metal than usual to get to good solid steel. If the steel is bad, it will microchip after a couple of uses, stropping flexes the edge and if weak it will chip.
If you see any light red rust on the polished steel, it is likely Cell rot, keep an eye on that razor.
The razor in the photo looks like it has a slight warp, could be the photo angle. Put the edge on a flat surface, with light behind it to check.
Chrome Oxide will not hurt a razor, a Chrome Oxide pasted 12k edge is a good smooth shaving edge.
If the razor is still not comfortable, check the edge for microchipping a Filarmonica 14 should shave smoothly with no irritation if stropped well, even better off of Chrome Oxide.
Paste is subjective, but no question that it can fine tune an edge. .25 CBN can really pump up an edge.
Nice looking razor, enjoy.
I got this #12 cleaned up today. I had to get rid of the gold wash, and you can still see light evidence of where the rust was on the face, but my patience for sanding ran out. It is now ready for the hones.
I am not sure how relevant this is to this discussion. In my opinion these images tell a different story.
The 1k edge looks like slurry have been involved, which have not been refined enough with a clean stone. Judging from the next 4k image allot of pressure have been used at the previous stage.
The 4k have not managed to remove the deeper scratches from the 1k. Allot more time should have been spent on the 4k.
The 8k edge still shows some of the deeper marks from the 1k, and the apex is allot more rounded then it should be at this stage.
The 12k edge only shows a polished bevel. The edge is still too rounded for a finished edge. It should have looked more like this at the 8k stage, without the apex rounding.
The edge is probably straight and smoot, but not that sharp. The 12k image would probably look quite different if the same light and angle was used as the 8k.
I assume these are the same images you have shown earlier from a someone learning to hone a razor.
The first two images shows really well what to look for when setting the bevel. I just think the other images tells a different story.
I know I asked this before, but I don't think I ever got an answer. I have a 13 JMP that is a nice user grade. I got it at a low bid and it came in as a rust bucket. But it did restore nicely and it shaves well. The back of the tang is stamped in a handwriting font, which I have not seen on any other Fili. I assume this is an early first gen. Has anyone seen a Fili with such a stamp on the tang? Early prototype? Anyone?
That is a first generation. It says Spanish Industry on the back. I have not seen that but it probably was like a made in Spain type marking.
I had a Filarmonica 14 razor with the cutlery shop name on the back tang…pretty neat!
Happy Thanksgiving!
Vr
Matt
I have a 14 like that.
It's not first iteration, but it is first generation.
If I had to guess, and I think I do,
I would guess towards the end of the second iteration of the first generation.
The third iteration of the first generation, being marked by lyres and horizontal numbers.
Thanks for the above!
The first iteration of the first generation of the Especial
looked like this:
Apologies. I don't remember where I got that picture.
Note the lack of the model type name on the tang stamp
and the inclusion of the musical etching and gold wash
on the blade face saying Especial Filarmonica,
both of which are characteristics of the Especial.
looked like this:
Apologies. I don't remember where I got that picture.
Note the lack of the model type name on the tang stamp
and the inclusion of the musical etching and gold wash
on the blade face saying Especial Filarmonica,
both of which are characteristics of the Especial.
