Thanks for the info Kevin! Saved me from learning the hard way.
Figured out vintage shaving mug/scuttle? yay Arko!
- Thread starter Krodor
- Start date
OK, poor old Mikey can't let this one die.
But in my defense, it's about the challenge and entertainment value isn't it? If all I wanted was beard removal I'd still be using a Mach 3 in the shower. Enough of that nonsense.
Excellent idea. So I did track down a bunch of stuff, which everyone is free to ignore or follow up.
First, there's some fellow (maybe a member here?) who has done tons of research. The website is http://www.antiqueshavingmugs.ca/ and the thumbnails do not load correctly on my computer, but that might be a firewall issue.
All the links on the site go to MS Word documents, not other pages, but all the ones I downloaded passed my virus scanner.
I also think the estimated values are high, but that could be because there weren't a bajillion of them on eBay when the work was done.
Second, this particular style which started the thread is Patented in 1870 by Patent # 107450.The inventor was Frank B. Clock from Boston, and according to the Patent the holes are in the soap tray to allow water to return to the reservoir.
Here's the Google Patent Search, but I'm sure the USPTO one would be better. I just don't know how to get it.
http://www.google.com/patents/US107450
The page from antiqueshaving mugs for this style is http://www.antiqueshavingmugs.ca/BOOK SHAVING MUG SM-36.doc
In a message above I had panned the idea of a tea light to warm the reservoir, and that's apparently not germane to this particular style. However it wasn't overlooked by our forefathers.
ANDREW J. FUER AND WALTER C. KNAUS, OF BOONSBOROUGH, MO. were granted Patent 144,667 in 1873 for a mug constructed with a lower chamber for a lamp to warm water.
http://www.google.com/patents/US144667
The page from antiqueshaving mugs for this style is
http://www.antiqueshavingmugs.ca/BOOK SHAVING MUGS SM-220.doc
Finally, there are couple of solutions here. I have, and occasionally see again on eBay, an old Fuller scuttle that has a notch to allow you to lay the brush flat across the reservoir.
There is also a vendor on eBay (no association, nor have I purchased - you're on your own) named kilnmenow who offers erotic scuttles that have notches to hold a brush across the reservoir, but no drain holes to return water from the soap compartment. These seem to be a modern adaption of the design by James W. Smith, of Boston issued USA Patent number 198,225 in 1877.
This one didn't show up in my Google search, but my google-foo isn't known to be strong.
As for keeping the brush warm between passes, I suspect a real brush scuttle designed for the job is best. I use a gravy warmer that has a surrounding reservoir for warm water that someone posted in another thread that's adequate.
But in my defense, it's about the challenge and entertainment value isn't it? If all I wanted was beard removal I'd still be using a Mach 3 in the shower. Enough of that nonsense.
Excellent idea. So I did track down a bunch of stuff, which everyone is free to ignore or follow up.
First, there's some fellow (maybe a member here?) who has done tons of research. The website is http://www.antiqueshavingmugs.ca/ and the thumbnails do not load correctly on my computer, but that might be a firewall issue.
All the links on the site go to MS Word documents, not other pages, but all the ones I downloaded passed my virus scanner.
I also think the estimated values are high, but that could be because there weren't a bajillion of them on eBay when the work was done.
Second, this particular style which started the thread is Patented in 1870 by Patent # 107450.The inventor was Frank B. Clock from Boston, and according to the Patent the holes are in the soap tray to allow water to return to the reservoir.
Here's the Google Patent Search, but I'm sure the USPTO one would be better. I just don't know how to get it.
http://www.google.com/patents/US107450
The page from antiqueshaving mugs for this style is http://www.antiqueshavingmugs.ca/BOOK SHAVING MUG SM-36.doc
In a message above I had panned the idea of a tea light to warm the reservoir, and that's apparently not germane to this particular style. However it wasn't overlooked by our forefathers.
ANDREW J. FUER AND WALTER C. KNAUS, OF BOONSBOROUGH, MO. were granted Patent 144,667 in 1873 for a mug constructed with a lower chamber for a lamp to warm water.
http://www.google.com/patents/US144667
The page from antiqueshaving mugs for this style is
http://www.antiqueshavingmugs.ca/BOOK SHAVING MUGS SM-220.doc
Finally, there are couple of solutions here. I have, and occasionally see again on eBay, an old Fuller scuttle that has a notch to allow you to lay the brush flat across the reservoir.
There is also a vendor on eBay (no association, nor have I purchased - you're on your own) named kilnmenow who offers erotic scuttles that have notches to hold a brush across the reservoir, but no drain holes to return water from the soap compartment. These seem to be a modern adaption of the design by James W. Smith, of Boston issued USA Patent number 198,225 in 1877.
This one didn't show up in my Google search, but my google-foo isn't known to be strong.
As for keeping the brush warm between passes, I suspect a real brush scuttle designed for the job is best. I use a gravy warmer that has a surrounding reservoir for warm water that someone posted in another thread that's adequate.
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- Thread starter
- #43
The above post?? Yeah...whoa. Cool stuff, man! Thanks for all the work and post!
Hey, you may as well pass around the info. What goes around comes around, and enough folks have helped me, fed me information, showed me how. The least we can do here is act like a community, right?
I hope someone else finds it useful, and maybe extends on it. I know that there's a bajillion of these things showing up on eBay these days. Who knows how many of them are left to be discovered in people's attics and old foot lockers.
I quess you like very weak tea.Please, just shoot me. It's 2:50am and my mind doesn't want to think about this. I'll have to remind myself that if I ever see one walk quickly to the next cabinet, table, etc, lol. I have an idea. Put tea bags in the top where the holes reside and slowly pour really hot water over the tea bags. Then pour the tea out of the spout into a cup and drink. Going to bed now. I'll think about this in the morning, oh, it is morning
And as one more bit of followup for DrZaius, I checked the pictures on a bunch of the "boot shaped" scuttles on eBay, and many of them, not only the erotic ones by kilnmenow, have notches for laying the brush down across the chambers.
But if warmth is what you're after, this is the most ingenious thing I've seen. http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/373754-Amazing-Brush-Scuttle?p=5723681#post5723681
But if warmth is what you're after, this is the most ingenious thing I've seen. http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/373754-Amazing-Brush-Scuttle?p=5723681#post5723681
I tend to agree with the idea that these were originally designed because there was a lack of running water. If you have a sink and running water, these serve no purpose. Heck, if you have a basin and a kettle, these serve no purpose.
The possibility exists that these were used entirely independent of the use of soap.
How about a guy has his "shaving area", and in that area he has his mug of soap.
He puts his brush in the scuttle, brings his scuttle to the stove and fills the scuttle with water from the kettle, and then goes to his shave area.
He pulls the brush and loads up the brush from his soap mug, and when his face is lathered, the brush sets on the drain area.
Excess liquid drains back to the scuttle base, and any warmth can rise through the unobstructed holes.
If the brush needs a little more water, it's a simple matter to pour a little onto the brush from the spout.
Just throwing out the possibility that perhaps we are stuck with the idea that soap had to be put in or on these things, and that maybe it wasn't.
The possibility exists that these were used entirely independent of the use of soap.
How about a guy has his "shaving area", and in that area he has his mug of soap.
He puts his brush in the scuttle, brings his scuttle to the stove and fills the scuttle with water from the kettle, and then goes to his shave area.
He pulls the brush and loads up the brush from his soap mug, and when his face is lathered, the brush sets on the drain area.
Excess liquid drains back to the scuttle base, and any warmth can rise through the unobstructed holes.
If the brush needs a little more water, it's a simple matter to pour a little onto the brush from the spout.
Just throwing out the possibility that perhaps we are stuck with the idea that soap had to be put in or on these things, and that maybe it wasn't.
- Thread starter
- #48
Out of the box-of-soap thinkin'...that's why they pay you the big bucks! Makes sense.
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About 30 or 40 years ago near Chicago, I had a next door neighbor whose mom passed. He brought his dad to live with him from the hills of West Virginia.
The first morning after his dad arrived my friend found his dad rinsing his face from the toilet.
He thought it was a self replenishing basin.
Now, I don't tell this story to make light of the guy, who was not senile or feeble.
I just use it as an illustration that to a guy who carried water from an outside pump into the house his entire life, his ability to reason out the items he saw in a modern bathroom were beyond his capacity.
Likewise, we are unequipped to reason out the use of an item from an era where we didn't have modern fixtures.
Our reasoning is tainted by our experience.
The first morning after his dad arrived my friend found his dad rinsing his face from the toilet.
He thought it was a self replenishing basin.
Now, I don't tell this story to make light of the guy, who was not senile or feeble.
I just use it as an illustration that to a guy who carried water from an outside pump into the house his entire life, his ability to reason out the items he saw in a modern bathroom were beyond his capacity.
Likewise, we are unequipped to reason out the use of an item from an era where we didn't have modern fixtures.
Our reasoning is tainted by our experience.
I stand by my assertion of Barbie toilet.
Dude, you could of at least said GI Joe!
Nah. Too many had flowers.
But I think the flower decorations were to please the wifey. However we attribute too much modern "manliness" to old times. The fact was that gramps likes to have nice things just as much as Grammy. And this was before he had the external influences of Hollyweird telling him what to think.
I'm back at this, but as I said above, it's entertainment. You can change the channel if you're not interested.
So today is New Year's Day, and I have time on my hands.
First, Happy New Year to everyone!
I noted an illustration on one of the old style scuttles on eBay that clearly displays use at a table without running water. Now, I grant you that the eBay listing claims it's manufactured in 1984, which is a long ways from 1860 like the Union Patent. But it's obvious that someone thought this was used without running water.
So today I tried out my method of operation. As pointed out by someone above, scalding water might hurt your brush. Well, I have an affinity for cheap Chinese manufactured horsehair brushes, so that's what I used. I have a bunch of these. And I think horsehair brushes we pretty standard a hundred years ago. (The "sterilized" mark on old brushes became mandated after an anthrax scare from horsehair shaving brushes.)
I used the Van Der Hagen inexpensive glycerin soap because it was handy, I didn't mind hacking it up to fit, and I knew that my old standby MWF wouldn't do well in extremely hot water so why bother.
And I used a Gillette England X-1 something or other I haven't figured out with an Israeli Persona.
I face lathered, not using the miniscule bowl on the scuttle for anything more than loading.
From a "historical perspective" I think my soap is wrong, and I know my razor is wrong. But my straight razor skill isn't great, and the soap was handy. I did not prewet my face, nor did I use any water that wasn't in the pot except I did rinse the razor between passes with the sink spigot. I figured that's about the same as wiping the lather off a straight with a towel. The lack of water was trying to duplicate the lack of water to a user of the 19th century.
I hacked up the soap to fit into the dish properly; their bowl sections are smaller than they seem. And I boiled some water in a kettle. Then I stuck the brush into the mouth of the scuttle, and proceeded to pour hot water over the soap, draining through the holes into the reservoir, until the scuttle was full spilling out the mouth.
First observation, don't boil the water. That's really too hot. I suspect that the temperature of the water, after it cooled a tiny bit while I was getting ready to pour it, was probably still 200F. And while the scuttle and soap mass did soak up a lot of heat bringing the temperature down, a lot of soap melted and the poor brush knot lost a bunch of hairs today. It normally sheds a hair or two every third or fourth shave. Today it shed at least 30 hairs - almost like it does brand new.
My next experiment I will heat the water until it started making the characteristic cavitation noises, but I will stop before the whistle on the kettle begins. I suspect that's when the aggregate temperature is about 185F, but I will use the meat thermometer to measure next time. I will not let it get to a full boil again.
To be honest "hot but not boiling" water was always a lot more common to have in the kitchen. I remember a black iron kettle sitting on a wood stove was almost never really in a boil. You had to stoke the stove up high to get a pot to boil properly. So next time "hot enough" rather than boiling will be the target.
The second observation is that VDH lathers like a barbershop's hot later machine when it's done with really, really hot water. I don't mean a good lather. I mean an absolutely exquisite later. I was astonished at how easily it brushed up and how much lather there was. After removing the brush from the mouth of the scuttle and shaking it out just a little I had an incredible *HOT* lather in seconds.
Maybe other soaps will do the same, and I'm just used to using soap with water as hot as my tap will provide. (My tap water is 130F. Yes, I cranked it up over factory.)
But the lather experience today was truly just like the rich creamy warm lather that I remember from barber shops of old when they would shave the whitewalls of your haircut. I might crank my hot water heater up to 140F just to see if I can get this result out of the tap without a kettle.
The shave, using the awesome lather, was as good and close as my shaves after a shower with my face fully hydrated with my ordinary method. I did a regular three pass shave, and each time the brush - which I left laying across the scuttle - was warm and toasty with just a dab of water from the reservoir to re-lather.
I do note that in the cartoon illustration there is another cup-like container, and the brush is laying across the scuttle. There could be some truth to luvmysuper's comments. And what I did find was that the weight of the damp bristles was enough to keep the brush in place, a la DrZaius's desire. That might be a function of the particular brush and bowl I was using, and I certainly don't guarantee it with any particular combination.
Next experiment is probably Saturday morning.
Edit: The picture with the Punch and Judy character is one I stole from eBay. But the rest are the scuttle and brush I used with the VdH test I talk about in this post. It's the 1860 design described in one go the patents listed above.
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Great work!
Considering your VdH lather discovery I may have to get one of these, or rig something up. That sounds like really nice lather. I have my water heater cranked up really high so it'll work great for me. I just ran some from the kitchen sink (further from the boiler than the bathroom) to measure it. Non-contact thermometer read 160, bbq fork thermometer read 175. (Yeah it's dangerous but I never have guests, just my wife and I, and it really is useful. It's great for rinsing tough food off of dishes/pans, and it allows great mixing of hot/cold water at the faucet to make sure you get maximum pressure instead of bottlenecking it at the boiler. It's been that way since 2005 and we've never been scalded.)
Considering your VdH lather discovery I may have to get one of these, or rig something up. That sounds like really nice lather. I have my water heater cranked up really high so it'll work great for me. I just ran some from the kitchen sink (further from the boiler than the bathroom) to measure it. Non-contact thermometer read 160, bbq fork thermometer read 175. (Yeah it's dangerous but I never have guests, just my wife and I, and it really is useful. It's great for rinsing tough food off of dishes/pans, and it allows great mixing of hot/cold water at the faucet to make sure you get maximum pressure instead of bottlenecking it at the boiler. It's been that way since 2005 and we've never been scalded.)
Thanks.
Whoa! That's hot!
This is an apartment in Tulsa for work, where I keep it at 130. My home in SC and our family farm house I keep at 140.
The problem for me is that I spend most of my life in hotels - spending your tax money. (I mean really, I do have half a million holiday inn points left, and I sent my mother and daughter to China. One year I actually got a holiday card from the corporate headquarters.) and the hotel water is never all that hot.
I used the cheap Chinese brush again this morning. And it lost a few more bristles. I don't know the safe limit for the knot glue, but clearly boiling wasn't helpful. That might become a $10 casualty.
And I did try the VDH in 130 water this morning too, but it was exactly as I remember it being. Certainly decent, but not the awesome experience of yesterday.
I wonder what other soaps might respond so positively to very hot water. Arko seems a good candidate. And I have some pure lard/lye soap that I found disappointing with tap water. Might give that a go with very hot water too.
Mikey
Great investment!
Guy 1: "I got this boat for my wife."
Guy 2: "Good trade!"
I know Arko completely does NOT respond to microwaving at all, for whatever that's worth.
You too, huh? Honestly neither does Palmolive sticks. I found them both failures in the microwave test.
But the microwave is affecting the long fat chains in the saponified mass. Very hot water is first going to be cooled substantially just by conduction to the soap mass, and second it's a totally different circumstance when water is bonded with the soap.
I'm pretty sure it's an ionic rather than covalent bond, but it's going to affect the system as a whole in ways that a microwave will not.
Maybe the cup is his morning coffee?
I believe you are correct. Also, the pucks back then were usually very small and fit in very well. I believe Williams fits in there pretty good. The feminine art on these mugs I believe stems from it being the style in the late 19th/early 20th century.
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