I have seen some awesome 1187's worked over by Wilson Combat and Scattergun Technologies. If I were to ever get a semi auto combat shotgun, I would be hard pressed to decide between an 1187 or Beretta 1302. Probably flip a coin.
Home Defense Shotgun Reccomendations
- Thread starter Claudel Xerxes
- Start date
Following with great interest my friend! I think Mrs FarmerTan is in need of better home defense than throwing me in front of the bad guy(s)!
He can't really go wrong with any of those top three. However I would suggest some caveats him being a novice, not to just shotgun's but firearms in general. Unlike the straight manual of arms of most semi auto pistols and rifles a defensive shotgun should be considered by most, especially a novice, to be some serious juju when it comes to home defense.
for instance:
While a Mossberg 590 and 500, or a Remington 870 or even a chosen flavor of Benelli M4 preferences by the 'experienced' shotgunner, can be considered Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge, there are caveats or things that need to be duly notated that won't come with their owners manual.
1. The Mossberg is a fine shotgun. Many prefer it's operating system and top mounted safety preferable over other shotgun brands. I have seen an police officer break his nose by flipping the safety off, but then not removing his thumb off the tang from the top and the recoil from his first shot fired sending his top mounted hand rearwards in recoil into his face, breaking his nose and tearing his septum in half. While many Mossberg lovers here will respond, this guy was an idiot or just didn't know what he was doing, they will have just made my point. As this thread is about advice for someone who does not yet know or are trained to know what they are doing?
2. Everyone knows, the recoil of a shotgun can be brutal. Especially if, They are beginning and have not learned proper technique in A. Stance, B. Proper holding and postioning of the shotguns rear stock in regards to the shoulder, eye placement and purposely working the forearm of a pump shotgun. It should be notated many unexperienced will find, the long angled downward sloping of a Benelli M4 stock and pistol grip is very difficult to maintain and absorb the recoil correctly when beginning. To a novice, a Benelli's recoil can be perceived to be much harsher and brutal then an M590 or R870.
3. I'm sure you can find a police department somewhere in the U.S, that issues a Mossberg to their officers. But by and large, of the over 100,000 police departments nation wide, I would bet 95% of them issue Remington 870 Police Magnums to their young cadets to train with in the academy and carry in their patrol vehicles once they are on the street. Why is this? There are several reasons which make it simpler, more reliable and conducive for someone like many police officer's who are just not experienced gun guys.
A. The 870 has a solid, full length "S" shaped shell lifter and follower in the loading port which allows for a very simple, easy and user friendly reload. It actually helps a new beginner, guide the shotshell he is trying to load into the magazine. A Mossberg's skeletonized, partial length "H" shaped shell lifter and follower. While the follower stays up out of the way at the top of the Mossberg's receiver, It makes it difficult for a novice to blindly find the magazine tube with a shell under stress. If the shell lifter is hit with the knuckles or fingers while loading, there are a lot of sharp and rough edges which can allow someone not experienced, to misfeed or cut or jamb fingers and thumbs when reloading. Especially under stress.
B. When it comes to the shotguns pump action, while both use dual action bars, the 870 uses a very solid one piece design that combines the action bars and pump to make for a solid, one piece very durable and reliable design. The Remington 870 tends to be tighter and smoother. It gives an overall higher quality experience.
The Mossberg uses 'two pinned action bars, that are anchored to a separate slide assembly. The end result is the Mossberg pumps tend to feel a bit sloppy, and they move around quite a bit. You can feel the slop in your hands as you pump the weapon. I will say, the 500 series Mossberg does make it easier to replace and repair the action. Should a bar get bent, it’s easy to unpin the bar and remove and replace it. If a Remington 870 bar gets bent, it can be challenging to pull out the entire system and replace it.
C. One of the most significant differences you can’t see between them, is what material makes up your shotgun’s receiver. Most people can’t look at a metal and tell you what it is. This material difference is one of the biggest differences you’ll likely never notice. The Remington 870s use good ole ‘fashion American steel. Well, I don’t know if it’s American anymore, but this steel gives the 870s a more substantial receiver overall.
The Mossberg 500 series uses aluminum receivers. While steel is stronger, there is likely never going to be a time you can break a Mossberg 500’s aluminum receiver. While the difference exists between the materials, there is no practical advantage to using steel over aluminum. However, these types of things is why an typical 870's price tag will run a bit more expensive then a typical Mossberg. Price is in the pudding, just sayin'. While a steel shotgun can be a pound and a half heavier to lug around and carry, I don't consider that a bad thing when shooting full power 12 gauge slugs or 00 buckshot.
D. One excellent feature the Mossberg has the Remington doesn't is a dual extractor. while I have never seen a Remington 870's single extractor break or fail in the police academy or on the street, the redundancy of a second extractor has to be a good thing right? Even if one fails there is always a second one right there for reliability.
Other very small things to take note. Mossberg and Remington both makes many different takes and models on their shotguns. However, If you take a standard, basic Remington 870 and a basic Mossberg 500? The 870's barrel will have thicker steel. In order to get a thicker barrel on the Mossberg, you would have to spend even more money and upgrade to the Mossberg 590. Which the basic 870's barrel is of the same thickness as the 590 already without an upgrade. Upgrade to a Remington 870 Police and get tritium front post, ghost ring rears 7+1 extended magazine tube etc.
In saying all of this. Mossberg's expensive and upgraded 590A1 which the Marines so proudly use, is the only shotgun I know of that passed the US Army's testing procedure called the MIL-SPEC 3443 test, which is a brutal, 3K round test that pushes shotguns to the edge.
Also, in 2007 Remington was purchased by and manufacturing was taken over by Freedom Group LLC, The revered 870 was only a shadow of its former self in quality craftsmanship and quality control. However, in the last few recent years, they seemed to have turned around and righted the ship, I hear much more positive reviews from owners of the current stuff who say, they are looking, feeling and shooting much better these days.
I have had my Remington 870 Police for many, many moons. And while it was awesome when I first purchased it back in the late 90's, I still sent it in to scattergun tech so they could give it their once over. I love my Glocks and AR's, but I can absolutely rock with my 870 Police Magnum.
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Great post @OkieStubble! I have both the Mossberg 590 and the Remington 870, as well as an 1100 set up as tactical shotguns. Other "sporting" shot guns as well. My 590 is well broken in and its action is very slick now but was not so smooth when I first bought it. But it has had a lot of rounds put through it and I used it years ago at the Gunsite shotgun course. I'm not a fan of the tang safety though. The Remington 870 although not new, has had a much lower round count through it and is still awaiting proper rifle ghost ring sights to be installed. I will say that the 870, bought in the late 90's (?)was not as smooth as the 870 Wingmaster that I bought for hunting in the mid 70s. The 1100 is set up for 3-gun and has a longer barrel, so not as practical as a home defense gun.
As Rob and others have said, you must practice shooting and manipulating a defensive shot gun much more than if you are a casual hunter. Particularly running a pump quickly. One key to shooting a pump quickly is to learn to work the pump during recoil, rather than waiting to recover first from the previous shot. While the barrel is still high in recoil, work the slide to pull it back down on target. Also, one must be aware that a shot gun is NOT a scatter gun at home defense ranges, the shot pattern will be tight enough at close range that you must aim it like a rifle.
As for recoil, train with low brass bird shot, carry low recoil tactical loads. No need for magnum 3 in. shells for HD.
As Rob and others have said, you must practice shooting and manipulating a defensive shot gun much more than if you are a casual hunter. Particularly running a pump quickly. One key to shooting a pump quickly is to learn to work the pump during recoil, rather than waiting to recover first from the previous shot. While the barrel is still high in recoil, work the slide to pull it back down on target. Also, one must be aware that a shot gun is NOT a scatter gun at home defense ranges, the shot pattern will be tight enough at close range that you must aim it like a rifle.
As for recoil, train with low brass bird shot, carry low recoil tactical loads. No need for magnum 3 in. shells for HD.
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I was wondering when he was going to bring up a semi auto.
. This opens up a whole new, different discussion.For the record, I’ve had 870 pumps, semi autos, O/U’s… now with some research… Mossberg 590 A1.
The M4 is the popular current fave, Beretta 1301 also a fave of many. A simple pump is much less money. A semi auto, just aim, pull the trigger and keep firing. If your friend has the bucks, get the semi and practice. If he wants simplicity and if he has the bucks, get a pump and build it up.
Whatever… save the money and buy lots of ammo and lube and PRACTICE!
Carried Remington 870 for decades. No complaints. Then discovered the Benelli M2 (Inertia action) never looked back.
No quarrel with pump action shotguns.
Tried a gas operated Mossberg 930 SPX.
No love.
Oh, Lord. Cheaper & mo' betta, honestly, would be a Stoeger M3k. The Benelli is nice. It is a variable gas system(not prone to the foibles and requirements of inertial guns). Spare parts are pricey. Really pricey, and you do want them.
The M3k is a proven platform, as 3 gunners run them hard. Not quite up to the Benelli M2 parts quality, but many parts are interchangeable and you can upgrade for a modest price. The action spring is around the mag tube, so with a stock adapter from MOA Precision, you can run a Magpul, a folder, or even a pistol grip.
I would get a Beretta 1301, Winchester SPX, or the Stoeger M3k, before the Benelli.
I've had $$$$$ of HK/Benelli arms and sold them off. Very nice, but I don't have a State armory supporting me, and the cost/value ratio really just isn't there. "Pride of ownership," sure, all the way!
I like the Mossberg 930/940s, very much, but you need to have some skills & knowledge before picking one up & expecting great things.
I've never owned or shot a Benelli, but I have read plenty of good things about them.
Great posts everyone! Great information in these posts for a new shotgunner to read and glean a lot about shotguns that the average shotgun owner might not ever know or realize.
It is a joy to be apart of so many experienced shotgun owners. To be honest, if I could afford it, I would own at least one of every brand and flavor if I could.
It is a joy to be apart of so many experienced shotgun owners. To be honest, if I could afford it, I would own at least one of every brand and flavor if I could.
You are right on the money about the wonderful action of a Wingmaster when compared to the action of an 870 fighting shotgun. However, once I got my 870 Police back from Scattergun Technologies The action might be as smooth as a Wingmaster.
My first duty gun was a wooden stocked Winchester Model 12. It was decades old, well worn and smooth as butter. In an effort to update and probably look more tactical, we went to both 870's and 500/590 guns and traded in the Winchesters. I trained with both the Rem and Moss over the years. Never a problem with either. My last 10-15 years, we added Benelli M4 guns, while keeping the Remingtons and Mossbergs. I chose to use a M4. It was fast and fun. Never a problem, either.
I have seen problems with a M4. My friend recently picked one up. He tried to use target/bird loads for general blasting. The gun wouldn't reliability function on light loads.
I have seen problems with a M4. My friend recently picked one up. He tried to use target/bird loads for general blasting. The gun wouldn't reliability function on light loads.
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For some reason, a number of ‘current’ semi autos have some difficulty running lower recoil, lighter loads. It’s gotta be the ‘gas system’ as the culprit. Years ago, my REM 1100, both for field use and trap, it cycled everything run through it. Great design!
I went back to pump for home defense as I run Federal Tactical ‘low recoil’ 00 Buck, approx 1150 FPS… rather than some heavy 1500+ FPS field or tactical 00 for the house. I did read in a number of places that lower recoil loads might prove problematic for a current semi auto. For the record, the 590 A1 feeds all my lower, heavy, buck and Breneke slugs… just fine.
I would imagine that putting a crap load of shells through an 870 popo would smooth it up a bit to.You are right on the money about the wonderful action of a Wingmaster when compared to the action of an 870 fighting shotgun. However, once I got my 870 Police back from Scattergun Technologies The action might be as smooth as a Wingmaster.
My home defense shotgun is a KelTec KSG. The short bullpup design is much easier for wielding in the house than a longer gun of conventional design. It holds 14 rounds in two magazines, which I have loaded with now-discontinued Federal Law Enforcement Tactical Low Recoil #1 Buck. It's heavy, but easy to shoot.
If I had to do it all over again today, I would still go the KelTec bullpup route but probably buy the KS7. For home defense purposes, having a single magazine with seven rounds in it would be sufficient and it would cut down on the weight due to the single mag tube. I seldom load more than 10 in the KSG.
If I had to do it all over again today, I would still go the KelTec bullpup route but probably buy the KS7. For home defense purposes, having a single magazine with seven rounds in it would be sufficient and it would cut down on the weight due to the single mag tube. I seldom load more than 10 in the KSG.
When I first worked up my 930s, I ran 750 rounds of cheapugly birdshot through each of them (1500 total), Estate, Monarch, or something like that, nothing so upscale as WWB.For some reason, a number of ‘current’ semi autos have some difficulty running lower recoil, lighter loads. It’s gotta be the ‘gas system’ as the culprit. Years ago, my REM 1100, both for field use and trap, it cycled everything run through it. Great design!
I went back to pump for home defense as I run Federal Tactical ‘low recoil’ 00 Buck, approx 1150 FPS… rather than some heavy 1500+ FPS field or tactical 00 for the house. I did read in a number of places that lower recoil loads might prove problematic for a current semi auto. For the record, the 590 A1 feeds all my lower, heavy, buck and Breneke slugs… just fine.
Gas thresholds are tricky, and can be effected by burrs or shavings, plating or coating "nuggets" in gas-ways, etc..OR3Gun are the kings of gas-guns at the moment and you can use their spring regulators with Benelli M2-style weapons as well, allowing more flexibility so that pretty much all loads will function with a turn of a cam. The "upgraded" 940s are 930s with Mossberg- made proprietary OR3Gun-style parts and a SBE Precision piston, again with some custom milling so that, nominally at least, no one's patent is getting trampled.
Inertia guns take practice. With extremely light loads, or if shooting angled-prone, angled-crouch, etc., you can get them to run with a weird little push-pull. With regular 00/000/slugs, they run fine 99.9% of the time, but you practice for that .01%
The old 1100s/11-87s were more tolerant of low power, but they were also designed as sporting arms first, and are/were fragile by comparison.
And that is why I do not own a Benelli.To be honest, if I could afford it, I would own at least one of every brand and flavor if I could.
My home defense shotgun is a KelTec KSG. The short bullpup design is much easier for wielding in the house than a longer gun of conventional design. It holds 14 rounds in two magazines, which I have loaded with now-discontinued Federal Law Enforcement Tactical Low Recoil #1 Buck. It's heavy, but easy to shoot.
If I had to do it all over again today, I would still go the KelTec bullpup route but probably buy the KS7. For home defense purposes, having a single magazine with seven rounds in it would be sufficient and it would cut down on the weight due to the single mag tube. I seldom load more than 10 in the KSG.
I was just watching a video last night on YouTube talking about the 5 top combat shotguns. Coming in it at #1? The KSG.
No matter which gun you chose, it's important to pattern your chosen ammo so you know what it will actually do when you need to use it. I patterned my chosen Federal load from 5 yards to 25 yards, with the results below. It was good information for me. Since a home defense shotgun will unlikely to be used beyond 5-7 yards unless you have a huge house (which I don't have), I know that I'm essentially shooting one large projectile. This justifies the red dot even more, IMHO.
No advice for specific shotgun that has been well covered. But a serious note about safety.
Keep the shotgun cruiser ready. Shells in the magazine, no shell in the chamber.
Shotguns and most rifles are not drop safe. They use an inertia firing pin and will discharge if dropped and can discharge if the firearm falls over as in was leaning in a corner.
To reiterate, do not keep a round in the chamber with long guns.
Keep the shotgun cruiser ready. Shells in the magazine, no shell in the chamber.
Shotguns and most rifles are not drop safe. They use an inertia firing pin and will discharge if dropped and can discharge if the firearm falls over as in was leaning in a corner.
To reiterate, do not keep a round in the chamber with long guns.
Good post.
Cruiser Safe- Check and make sure shotgun magazine is empty.point shotgun in safe direction, preferably towards the ground.
Rack action open look and visually inspect chamber and receiver are empty. Stick finger in chamber and also feel that is empty.
Close action turn safety off and pull trigger firing hammer on empty shotgun which will release the slide action. Put safety back in the on position. Load magazine and magazine only with shotshells.
It is now, Cruiser Safe. If ever needed, pick up shotgun in low ready position if indoors and a high ready position in outdoors. Rack slide action to chamber a round and charge the shotgun. When ready to fire, aim at target you are intending to destroy and disengage safety with trigger finger behind trigger guard if R870 and with thumb on top of receiver tang of M500 or M590. Always remove thumb and hand from over the top of the receiver before firing a Mossberg.
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