World War I - a discussion

[Welferus]

I was reading on the dutch pages of the internet and found this archive. During WW1 there were a lot of british soldiers in internment in the Netherlands. On this site you can look the british soldiers up by name and see pictures of them. Maybe this is interesting?

http://www.navalbrigade.nl/en/

 

[Musikmann]

I'm sorry if my post is seen as having diverted discussion from the main subject of this thread; that was not my intention. I was simply responding to some posts early on in the thread which implied or said outright that the Treaty of Versailles (surely a legitimate part of any debate on the Great War) resulted in the rise of Nazism.

No problem my my friend. As you mentioned, there were earlier posts that referred to the Versailles-Nazi connection.

I like your, and the European historian's, take on it and was not familiar with the provisions resulting from the Franco-Prussian war but I plan to read up on that conflict and its' aftermath.

I'm actually interested in the subject of Prussia as my father's ancestors were Prussian. That grandfather left Germany in the 1840s allegedly because he was tired of fighting "Bismarck's Wars". Perhaps ironically, he later enlisted and fought for the Union in the US Civil War.

 

[Musikmann]

M. Militarism
A. Alliances
I. Imperialism or Industrialism (your choice, I like both choices)
N. Nationalism

Over the next few days, I will be posting about each of these factors.

Please do Bob, I'm looking forward to those.

 

[dws]

May we never forget our fallen countrymen & allies. My great grandfathers served in the Canadian Army during The Great War. I never knew any of them and I never got to know their stories. It's sad to say/know that I probably never will. They will always be viewed as personal heroes, no matter how very little informed I am about them. War is truly a miserable thing.

 

[redrako]

21 November 1918

On this date in history the Imperial German High seas fleet surrendered to a combined Allied Fleet of British, French and United States Naval ships at the Scottish North Sea port of Firth of Forth. Headed by the light cruiser, HMS Cardiff, over 90,000 sailors on over 350 allied ships lined up in two columns to receive the defeated German Fleet.

The BBC reports:

"The German Fleet arrived at the Firth of Forth from Wilhelmhaven on the morning of 21 November and were met by an Allied force of about 250 ships under Admiral Beatty. Five battle cruisers, eleven battleships, eight light cruisers2 and fifty destroyers (torpedo boats) arrived under von Reuter's command. At 3:57pm the German flag was ordered to be hauled down and the ships were inspected by the British to see if disarmament was complete. From 22 November the British moved the German ships in groups to Scapa Flow, where they all arrived by 27 November."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ptop/plain/A2497494

Months later in June 1919, the remaining German sailors after not being allowed to come ashore or visit other ships attempted a mass scuttling of their ships while anchored at Scapa Flow, the northern Scottish harbor.

 

[Space_Cadet]

My great-great-grandad fought in WWI in the Russian Army, was gravely wounded and died in a field hospital.

Contrary to the common opinion, Russian Army didn't do so bad, actually it did great up to 1917, and the famous Brusilov Offensive came close to collapsing the whole Eastern front for the German and Austro-Hungarian armies.
But when trouble and unrest started back at home it immediately started influencing the Army and things went completely out of hand, leading to disintegration of the Russian Army. Russians did not lose of the field of battle.

 

[bahomebrew]

Sorry to have taken a couple days off, but I'm glad to see the conversation plugging along healthily. To address jamesspo's comment to my capitalizing, or not as is the case, it is merely a stylistic device; I think ee cummings did similarly in his poetry, but it's something I started to reflect the casual nature of many of the electronic communications. I hadn't thought about it for some time and more on reflex have typed that way, but for ease of reading, I can reach over to the shift key, though my pinky may be a little stiff from rust.

As to some of my earlier posts, I want to emphatically state, I in no way want to belittle the efforts of anyone from that time, or this, but merely to express the thoughts I have as I ponder those events and their meaning, both historically and personally. My humblest apologies if I have over stepped anyone's boundaries of propriety or respect concerning this thread.

My thanks to jamesspo for the perspective of wartime industry. The winner must necessarily be the one who can handle the demands of manufacture and growth, and inherent profit must follow along with that. It's not quite a perspective i had considered, or rather not quite from that angle.

I would also like to thank loyalroyal57 and all the other posters who have shared their family histories. Without these smaller stories, there are no larger ones.

welferus, I find the story of neutral netherlands holding troops from one of the "belligerents" for internment very interesting. I had always sort of pictured neutral territories more or less normal, but they were forced to walk the tightrope in the middle of the combatants, and at least prove passably well they were not helping either side to whichever side wanted to know always with the fear that an enemy might invade anyway.

 

[Inari7]

WWI is very interesting, think of the world today where there is only one superpower, maybe two like the USSR was at one point. Now in 1914 there are six and all of them are next to each other in Europe.

The summer of 1914 was very peaceful.
In the month after the assassination all of Europe of plunged into war.
Lots of reasons and blame can be passed around, but one thing is for sure entangling alliances prevented this from being a regional conflict to a world war.

 

[Kilroy6644]

I don't have anything to contribute to the discussion, but here's some pics of some WWI-vintage guns. Neither of them have any fascinating story or personal history behind them, but they're both a piece of history.

This is a 1918-dated Lee-Enfield. I don't know if it made it to the war or not. Without knowing exactly when in 1918 it was made, it's hard to make any educated guesses about whether it saw wartime service or not. It's obviously had a long, hard life, so I like to think it did, but who knows?


This is a 1905-dated Mosin-Nagant M1891. It's also had a long, hard life, but I know this one saw service in the war. It has Austro-Hungarian markings on the receiver. At some point it was captured from the Russians, inspected, and reissued to an A-H soldier. It has a lot of post-war history as well, but I haven't been able to decipher it all, and it's not relevant to this discussion anyway. (Yes, it has a front sight. I just couldn't get it in the frame.)

 

[bahomebrew]

Some other things i have been reading about that happened during the war:

the Panama Canal opened in 1914. This was an unprecedented technological undertaking and achievement. Not only does this mark a huge transformation in global shipping(along with the combustion motor) but a huge coup for the US who bought that project from the french. The income plus control became significant advantages to US trade and military operations and their friends, though the canal struggled during wwi to remain open from landslides and work shortages and strikes. The canal opened early in 1914 but the official ceremony was severely curtailed due to the eruption of fighting in Europe.

the Christmas truce - the first Christmas at the front was honored with a truce and soldiers apparently marched through no man's land between the lines calling out 'Merry Christmas' in enemies languages.

the first US income tax - that's right, in 1914, the tradition began by US gov't. collecting tax on income over $3,000. Before anyone gets up in arms about the little guy getting squeezed, the average annual income in the US that same year was under $600, and even by the start of WWII hadn't climbed above $1500.

 

[Citizen C]

I don't have anything to contribute to the discussion, but here's some pics of some WWI-vintage guns. Neither of them have any fascinating story or personal history behind them, but they're both a piece of history.

This is a 1918-dated Lee-Enfield. I don't know if it made it to the war or not. Without knowing exactly when in 1918 it was made, it's hard to make any educated guesses about whether it saw wartime service or not. It's obviously had a long, hard life, so I like to think it did, but who knows?
View attachment 522076

This is a 1905-dated Mosin-Nagant M1891. It's also had a long, hard life, but I know this one saw service in the war. It has Austro-Hungarian markings on the receiver. At some point it was captured from the Russians, inspected, and reissued to an A-H soldier. It has a lot of post-war history as well, but I haven't been able to decipher it all, and it's not relevant to this discussion anyway. (Yes, it has a front sight. I just couldn't get it in the frame.)
View attachment 522078

The No. 1 Mk. 3 may not have been in time for WW1, but was still an issue weapon during WW2 even as it was being replaced by the No. 4 Mk. 1, with its simplified manufacturing and improved sights. I believe ANZAC troops used the No. 1 Mk. 3 throughout WW2.

Mosins are interesting. That one's sights are likely graduated in "arshins", a Czarist-era unit of measure rather than than the metric meters later adopted by the Communists. Yes...the metric system is a communist plot. I read a book written by a U.S. doughboy sent to Russia after WW1 as part of an Allied force that briefly opposed the Communists and supported White Russian forces. He'd had his issue Remington M1917 bolt-action taken away and was given a Mosin like this along with every other American. That was like going from a Cadillac to a Trabant. They roundly disapproved!

I read an opinion about rifles in WW1 once. It said the Germans went to war with a hunting rifle, the Mauser. The Americans went to war with a target rifle, the Springfield. The British alone went to war with a battle rifle, the Lee-Enfield.

 

[redrako]

Kilroy, those are tremendous photos - thanks.

 

[Maxime D.]

The largest takeaway from World War One is that when it comes to war, listen to the United States. The aftermath of World War One and the absolute failure of Britain and France to listen to President Woodrow Wilson gave rise to Hitler and cost millions of people their lives in the very dark time that followed the signing of the Treaty of Versailles.

The Treaty of Versailles or how to trigger a second World War with single piece of paper : /

 

[mretzloff]

Do any of you have any favorite WWI documentaries?

 

[Eeyore]

Geert Mak, a Dutch historian, extensively covers WWI in some of his books (a.o. a history of the 20th century). There are also some very interesting books and papers by Flemish historians, dealing with the effects of the war on the Flemish people.

 

[jamesspo]

Do any of you have any favorite WWI documentaries?

I'm currently watching this one: http://www.amazon.com/First-World-W...id=1416747116&sr=1-3&keywords=first+world+war , and it's been pretty good so far. It's similar to the World at War series (WWII), if you've ever seen it. I guess this is my favorite so far, as it's the only one I ever recall watching

 

[Eeyore]

The Treaty of Versailles or how to trigger a second World War with single piece of paper : /

I think that the USA delegation (Wilson et al) didn't understand enough about Europe, and that the European powers were blinded by their past.
Don't forget that some of the causes for the ties and animosities between states went back several centuries (and btw, could play up again even today).

 

[Musikmann]

Do any of you have any favorite WWI documentaries?

I don't but like you, I'd be very interested to see some. I'll search around, but my gut feeling is the BBC produced some nice ones.

 

[Musikmann]

The Treaty of Versailles or how to trigger a second World War with single piece of paper : /

That's a good one. I think one of the biggest mistakes the allies made was to not include the German delegation in any of the negotiations.

 

[Musikmann]

the first US income tax - that's right, in 1914, the tradition began by US gov't. collecting tax on income over $3,000.

My economics is pretty weak but I believe the federal income tax was a direct result of our involvement in the war effort. Plus, it was long overdue because of the so-called "robber barons" [insert your favorite here] and the obscene amount of money they had been making during the previous several years.