Which artificial stone after 6000 grit? 10k or 12k?

[albsat]

Hello,

Just getting some feedback to clear my focus.

I have a 6k stone and I am looking for the next artificial stone to close the journey of honing. So far I understand that the Suehiro Kouseki 10,000 grit would be ideal in my situation but I don't have that budget.

So considering a budget under 100usd/euro:

Which artificial stone after 6000 grit?

Should I take a 10000 or 12, 000 grit?

Is 12,000 grit a big jump?

 

[Kyle89]

Would you be following this stone with anything else or would you be considering this stone to be a finisher?

 

[Wid]

What 6K stone do you have? A 6 to 12K jump is normally fine.

Where are you located?

 

[Gamma]

Not all 6k stones are equal. Not all stones of any particular grit are equal.
I wasn't all that impressed with the Gok 10k, to be honest, esp given the price tag.

Not every honing job is equal so a reliable numerical formula is impossible.

Thinking in terms of grit is limiting, it's not a numbers game. It's a skill and proficiency game.

Food for thought
Can you shave with the 6k edge? Can you shave off your bevel set edge?
If not then, then the assets afforded by the worlds best next finer grit stone might not be realized.
They are rhetorical questions, just something to consider.

Wherever someone is in their progression, what the next 'best' step is depends on unknowns.
Some will benefit from a close stone, like an 8k. Some might benefit very well from a jump to 10k-12k.
If someone has not tried thus specific 6k edge followed by a particular 10k, or a specific 12k, then there is no real knowledge to build a hypothesis on. It's just guesswork.
People like to think out loud, but without hands-on experience with the actual players in the story then it's all just hot air. Have to try things to know what works best. Relying on guess work is a flawed model and it can/will create confusion quite often.

I used to own a King 6k, never liked it, always wanted to use a good 8k after it.

I also had a 6k Glass Stone, which was pretty nice. Moving to the 10k Glass Stone was ok, didn't absolutely need the 8k but the 8k did seem to add benefit. Splitting hairs.

Glass 8k to the 16k or 30k Glass Stones was good.
Did not get the same impression from jumping from the 6k Glass to those two higher grit options.

Typically, when I leave a Shapton Pro 5k, then I will use an 8k before moving forward.
With mid-range, I prefer smaller incremental jumps usually.
Objectively, a 1k, 3k, 5k, 8k progression asks and expects less from each successive particle size allowing for a smoother refinement overall. So a 4 µm 3k will handle rogue striations left by a 12 µm 1k way more easily than a 3µm 5k is able to.

A lot of know it alls spend a lot of time telling people what they don't need to do.
I don't do 'honing' based on what I don't have to do, instead I try things and choose what works best for me.

So I would suggest trying more than one path to see which path YOU wind up liking best.

 

[albsat]

Would you be following this stone with anything else or would you be considering this stone to be a finisher?

I would consider it a finisher stone. Like final one. Maybe in the future I will get a natural one.

What 6K stone do you have? A 6 to 12K jump is normally fine.

Where are you located?

The stone I have is 6k.

 

[albsat]

Not all 6k stones are equal. Not all stones of any particular grit are equal.
I wasn't all that impressed with the Gok 10k, to be honest, esp given the price tag.

Not every honing job is equal so a reliable numerical formula is impossible.

Thinking in terms of grit is limiting, it's not a numbers game. It's a skill and proficiency game.

Food for thought
Can you shave with the 6k edge? Can you shave off your bevel set edge?
If not then, then the assets afforded by the worlds best next finer grit stone might not be realized.
They are rhetorical questions, just something to consider.

Wherever someone is in their progression, what the next 'best' step is depends on unknowns.
Some will benefit from a close stone, like an 8k. Some might benefit very well from a jump to 10k-12k.
If someone has not tried thus specific 6k edge followed by a particular 10k, or a specific 12k, then there is no real knowledge to build a hypothesis on. It's just guesswork.
People like to think out loud, but without hands-on experience with the actual players in the story then it's all just hot air. Have to try things to know what works best. Relying on guess work is a flawed model and it can/will create confusion quite often.

I used to own a King 6k, never liked it, always wanted to use a good 8k after it.

I also had a 6k Glass Stone, which was pretty nice. Moving to the 10k Glass Stone was ok, didn't absolutely need the 8k but the 8k did seem to add benefit. Splitting hairs.

Glass 8k to the 16k or 30k Glass Stones was good.
Did not get the same impression from jumping from the 6k Glass to those two higher grit options.

Typically, when I leave a Shapton Pro 5k, then I will use an 8k before moving forward.
With mid-range, I prefer smaller incremental jumps usually.
Objectively, a 1k, 3k, 5k, 8k progression asks and expects less from each successive particle size allowing for a smoother refinement overall. So a 4 µm 3k will handle rogue striations left by a 12 µm 1k way more easily than a 3µm 5k is able to.

A lot of know it alls spend a lot of time telling people what they don't need to do.
I don't do 'honing' based on what I don't have to do, instead I try things and choose what works best for me.

So I would suggest trying more than one path to see which path YOU wind up liking best.

I tried shaving with this 6k King stone but the shave left a harsh feeling on my skin.

 

[Gamma]

Harshness is subjective and different from person to person.

But for comparison I shave off my 1.5k Shapton Pro and I don't consider the shave harsh.
Its not where I want the edge to be, but it's not what I call harsh. I do a 3 pass, wtg, xtg, atg, shave this way.

Lets say my 5k edge was harsh, I'd go back and rework bevel set and 3k. I would not rely on an 8k, 10k, or 12k to make things better on their own.

One of the biggest pitfalls is trying to make up for missed early work on finer grit stones. Nothing worse than spending 45 minutes on an 8k and never understanding why the edge just doesn't excel like the imagination said it would.

To guess, I'd venture that your bevel set work and what, if anything, comes between it and your 6k needs some attention. After that is sorted, then any number of possibilities might work out well. I would not rule out an 8k, it can handle deep striations from the 6k better than a 10k or 12k are able to.
Do you need an 8k in there? Need is impossible to define clearly here.
Will 6k to 8k then 10k be nicer than 6k to 10k without the 8k? For me, probably. But for someone else, only way to know is to try.

As for 10k or 12k, it depends on the stones in question, the person evaluating, etc. I shaved off the Shapton Glass 10k many many times, was better than just good. I think the Shapton Rockstar 10k might be a smidge finer, technically. The Nani Arata 10k is pretty nice. Neither are particularly expensive. the go-to for 12k finishing is the Nani 12k Super Stone but that series has proven to have warping issues so it's a dicey situation. The difference between a Nani 10k SS and Nani 12k SS edge, for me, is not all that big a deal.

 

[albsat]

Thank you @Gamma. Fantastic explanation!

As I understand from your point of experience sharing, I should first consider a 3k and 8k stone.

And if I go for another stone than a 10k would be enough ( a choice between Shapton Glass 10k, Shapton Rockstar 10k, Nani Arata 10k).

Uh man, this hobby is expensive for me...

 

[JPO]

I think you can use the stones you have, and some pastes.
You just need to master the basics.
I have never attempted to shave off a 1k.

This is a response to @papi in a previous thread, but I think it fits better here.
This is just to show how you can get a good edge with a simple setup. No magnification is needed to do this. Using a finer stone stone then 6k makes it easier.
Equipment;
Shapton gs 6k, TI pasted denim, 0.1 micron cbn on leather.
View attachment 1715535
The razor is honed on the 6k ending with enough edge trailing strokes to raise a visible burr.
View attachment 1715536
The burr is removed by stropping on a hanging denim strop loaded with TI white paste. This also creates a little convexity that will reduce the tendancy for the cbn to create a new burr.
View attachment 1715538
This is the final edge after the hard backed cbn on leather.
View attachment 1715540
Some of the 6k striations are still visible a distance behind the edge. This will not affect the shave.

So @papi, if you are after a pasted type of edge, and if you don't want to buy a higher grit finisher then your 12k pro stone, this might be worth exploring.
It will probably be easier coming off a 8k or 12k. The resulting edge will however be quite similar in feel.

I did over 50 laps on the cbn, just to see if I would run into issues. No changes was seen when compared to the first inspection after 15 laps.
The combination of a hanging soft strop with a harder flat leather makes a difference.

 

[Gamma]

@albsat

What I am saying is, your edge refinement should leave you with a 6k edge that isn't annoyingly harsh.
How you get there is an undecided journey.

My personal choices are mine, they don't necessarily need to be yours.

I approach things logically, without a focus on cutting corners. Honing is largely practice and skill. But there are undeniable logistics that are helpful when considered. Lots of people will tell you what you don't need to do. I am more likely to tell you to try things and see for yourself. And to think. That's all.

Improving your 1k work significantly will allow you to produce a greatly improved 5k edge. Might be something to consider. Just buying stones doesn't guarantee results. If you don't fix the ground work, buying all the stones in world won't help.

When I said don't rule out an 8k, I am saying you should keep an open mind about refinement and what the stones have to do in order to yield the best possible result. As opposed to prioritizing 'what can I get away with' or deciding what isn't needed without trying it.

If you are starting with a 1k ish stone, adding a 3k before the 6k isn't going to hurt you. It stands a good chance to help you. The math behind the grits explains part of the why. You don't need a microscope to figure it out, applied common sense, logic, and reason sheds the necessary light on the subject. To be honest, the magnification is more confusing than helpful most of the time.
Realizing any possible advantages though, is not guaranteed; the skills and efforts still have to be on-point.
Sometimes people follow solid directions and say nothing got better. I usually tell them to try harder.

Same with an 8k after 6k.
Whether or not those steps are necessary' is for someone else to argue about and the individual to choose.
It just happens to be that my typical synth progression is 1k, 3k, 5k, 8k.
Lotta work on 3k and 5k. Maybe 15-25 laps on the 8k.

I usually do not finish on synths. I do have a 10k. I ordered a new 16k but it arrived broken and has been sent back. There is a GS7 .44 µm around here still I think.
I also have a 4k that I will sometimes use between the 3k and 5k. Or in place of the 3k.

 

[Frank Shaves]

I don't own a 6k so I can't comment on 6k.

My normal progression is 1k to 3k (or 4k) to 8k to 12k (or natural).

My 8k gets a lot of use. I often take previously finished edges back to 8k before going to the same or different finisher. It's hard for me to imagine life without an 8k.

 

[Eshebert]

I don’t realize they made them past 5k.

 

[natto]

I tried shaving with this 6k King stone but the shave left a harsh feeling on my skin.

i am just another beginner. And a bad shave tells me my sharpening was not good enough. So my sharpening is hunting errors, or a quest...

Dont waste your money, enjoy the hunt.

 

[natto]

Btw, I want to replace my 1k since decades. It does grind, feedback is so so, and some tasks need a lot of attention. Ten years ago Choseras had been the must have stone here around. Eventually I got a 3k. That thing is nice to use. It just does what it should do. Sharpening is more pleasant on nice stones. To me it is easier to get a good result on a nice stone.

but if the edge doesnt shave nice, better look why

 

[Christian1212]

I'm looking at possibly adding to my synthetic collection. Currently have a chosera 1k, Shapton glass 2k, 6k, 10k, and the green ceramic 8k from shapton. Right now I do mostly 2k, 6k, then a jump to tenjou and so on. Not the biggest fan of the 2k to 6k jump though.

Not sure if I want to add a 3k or 4k rockstar or to look at the Kuromaku set. From the kuromaku stone I have and glass stones I really enjoy them both, but not the biggest fan of the 6k (is the Grey high carbon version). Moving soon though so waiting for more reviews of the rockstar series to come in. (Also might grab a 500 grit stone for some knife work as well)

 

[JPO]

If your goal is just to get a good shave, and you have a limited budget i would consider using pastes and the stones you have.
You can always chase those last 3% later.
I just honed and shaved with a test razor.
This gave a really comfortable close shave.

I used the worst bevel setter i had. Anyone who wants this stone can come and pick it up for free. The 1k Naniwa in the Gouken series. This is the brown/pink soaking stone.
The King 1k is probably a better stone.
This method can easily be broken down into a repeatable method.
Doing this after a 6k should be quite simple.
Anyone who follows some simple steps can do this. No microscope is needed.
1k ending with a few edge trailing strokes. Hence the erratic striations.

Denim loaded with Cromium oxide.
This cleans up the edge but creates allot of convexity.

Then I did over 100 x strokes on a hard leather loom strop loaded with Iron Oxide

 

[albsat]

@JPO

Your method is a replication in your own way of the science of sharp, correct? You are using Crox or TI paste in place of the metal polish. And you use 0.1 Cbn or red paste/ferox in place of the 0.25 u cbn that the guy in that website has used. Interesting concept. I would love to try it.

 

[JPO]

@JPO

Your method is a replication in your own way of the science of sharp, correct? You are using Crox or TI paste in place of the metal polish. And you use 0.1 Cbn or red paste/ferox in place of the 0.25 u cbn that the guy in that website has used. Interesting concept. I would love to try it.

Yes.
You can play with different types of abrasives, and the results will be quite similar.
The edge trailing strokes and the combination of soft and hard substrates is the most important part.
This gives more or less the same results every time I do it.
You can even add a 12k finishing stone at the end to knock down some of the convexity.

 

[albsat]

Just a recap.

Based the feedback I feel that the 1k/6k grit jump is not that common. I admit that I have to work a lot on 6k to remove the 1k stria but I am in my beginning.

Going to 10k directly from King 6k would not be that easy as well in the beginning.

@JPO is convincing me to imitate his scienceofsharp attempts. It is much more convinient for me as well.

One other question out of my curiosity.

If a user had a 1k,6k and a 10k stone, is there any method using pastes between 1k to 6k and 6k to 10 to reduce that gap?

What happens if after 1k, I give some laps on a balsa or linen strop with 9um diamond paste? Also doing the same after 6k with a balsa/linen strop with 3um diamond paste before jumping to 10k stone? Would that work to reduce the gap? I am thinking to bridge the gap with pasted strops between stones.

My setup would be 1k King + 9um balsa strop + 6k King + 3um balsa strop + 10, 000 grit stone progression. Crazy idea?

 

[JPO]

Just a recap.

Based the feedback I feel that the 1k/6k grit jump is not that common. I admit that I have to work a lot on 6k to remove the 1k stria but I am in my beginning.

Going to 10k directly from King 6k would not be that easy as well in the beginning.

@JPO is convincing me to imitate his scienceofsharp attempts. It is much more convinient for me as well.

One other question out of my curiosity.

If a user had a 1k,6k and a 10k stone, is there any method using pastes between 1k to 6k and 6k to 10 to reduce that gap?

What happens if after 1k, I give some laps on a balsa or linen strop with 9um diamond paste? Also doing the same after 6k with a balsa/linen strop with 3um diamond paste before jumping to 10k stone? Would that work to reduce the gap? I am thinking to bridge the gap with pasted strops between stones.

My setup would be 1k King + 9um balsa strop + 6k King + 3um balsa strop + 10, 000 grit stone progression. Crazy idea?

6k to 10k is a manageable jump .
Pastes can introduce some convexity, which might affect the results.
I would just make sure the work leading up to, including 6k is on point.
After this you should not need to spend allot of time on the 10k
You just need to experiment.
Try to keep it simple.