Fair enough then, and agreed my friend. I still think that if the OP is already arriving at "too sharp" edges with a synth progression, then any slightly lesser nat stone than the last synth will work wonders to tame the edge. Doesn't matter where it comes from, just so long as it is dense enough.
Thinking about venturing into natural stones
- Thread starter jrward2
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Very true although with a jnat you can really achieve that smoothness while maintaining or exceeding the sharpness. They really are wonderful tools! Perhaps a thuringian/escher or jnat is what he really needs (not a huge fan of coticules here even though I have 4, mine seem to be reserved for mid range work when I want to switch things up and preserve my naguras)
Can someone define 'too sharp' ?
Like - how does any sharpness get in the way?
Me - personally - I would find a lack of sharpness to be a problem.
Like - how does any sharpness get in the way?
Me - personally - I would find a lack of sharpness to be a problem.
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Agreed.
I feel an edge can be too sharp for certain angles or maneuvers. For instance, a guy used to taking an edge off a norton 8k and scraping his stubble at a 20 degree angle picking up a 0.01micron or whatever film edge and doing the same maneuver is gonna have a bad time. He's gonna take the shave and judge the razor as "too harsh/sharp", because he's using a technique designed to work with a much less effective cutting edge with a much more effective one. It's like the guy who cuts bagels in his palm deciding that his new breadknife is too sharp because it cuts through the bagel and his palm in one fluid stroke, whereas his old duller knife forced him to saw a bit and gave him plenty of warning before he neared his palm. So in this way, I can see the concept of a razor being "too sharp", for a beginning shaver or maybe your average shaver. But for someone who wants that level of sharpness and knows its capabilities and what techniques it will work with, you can certainly argue that there is no such thing.
Not to sound too reckless, but I've shaved off a coticule somewhat drunk in the past. If I tried doing that off my jnat, I'd be dead. So my Jnat edge is "too sharp" for shaving drunk. Likewise I feel an edge can be "too sharp" for shaving inexperienced or perhaps more correctly for shaving when your experience is entirely with much duller razors.
Not to sound too reckless, but I've shaved off a coticule somewhat drunk in the past. If I tried doing that off my jnat, I'd be dead. So my Jnat edge is "too sharp" for shaving drunk. Likewise I feel an edge can be "too sharp" for shaving inexperienced or perhaps more correctly for shaving when your experience is entirely with much duller razors.
Relative sharpness is another thing - I agree, moving from a std Coti edge to a hyper-keen nano-spray edge can cause a reality check.
But the OP started off with "too sharp" and moved right to "Cotis giving smooth edges"
So I'm wondering if the discussion is actually about a harsh/grabby edge and not a 'too sharp" edge.
Lately - I've read a few statements about sharper being more harsh.
Personally - I think sharp is sharp, and sharp can be smooth.
Sharp can also be harsh, but dull can be harsh too.
I don't believe that 'sharper' automatically equates to 'harsher'.
But the OP started off with "too sharp" and moved right to "Cotis giving smooth edges"
So I'm wondering if the discussion is actually about a harsh/grabby edge and not a 'too sharp" edge.
Lately - I've read a few statements about sharper being more harsh.
Personally - I think sharp is sharp, and sharp can be smooth.
Sharp can also be harsh, but dull can be harsh too.
I don't believe that 'sharper' automatically equates to 'harsher'.
True. I feel a lot of people don't want to admit when they have a harsh or bad edge, so they declare it "too sharp" for them. Seeing this claim enough times tends to make people incorrectly equate being sharp with being harsh.
Too sharp = harsh. Some people have sensitive skin. I don't have enough experience with 15k+ edges to conclusively say that are automatically harsh. I end my progression with a thuri or gnat that both can't be more than 12k. I had one razor honed on a sharpton 30k and I can say that yes, it was harsh, and that super sharpness didn't last long.
I also think that low grade steel can also provide a harsh edge. I have some really old razors that I don't think the steel is hard enough to support a smooth shave.
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To know the answer to this, we'd have to know what causes a harsh edge. I've seen many harsh edges when I've refreshed my edges too many times with diamond impregnated strops, and one 30k shapton edge, but thats it.
For me, "too sharp" is to be distinguished from "smooth." "Too sharp" will shave facial hair easily enough, but it will also cut and sever quite freely, the edge itself being felt as fragile, subjective as this may be. Not that the cause is lost here at all; when I move to a black Ark or even a coticule with such an edge, it seems to be "tempered" afterward and I have a very nice "smooth" shave with plenty of underlying "sharpness" still intact, or not unlike what I've felt given my limited experience with Jnat edges. Still, I do now note that the OP did not mention the progression he used, which would be helpful as a gauge of "sharpness" there.
Let me give you an example of "too sharp" from yesterday. I am still breaking in a set of small Arkansas stones the hard way (i.e., not lapping them in advance) and the edge off the black Ark will not severe a hanging hair (not that it necessarily would off the stone anyway). In any case, the edge was not up to snuff, so then I moved to a barber's strop absolutely plastered with ferric oxide, following a pasted-strop to plain leather alternating technique that a local razor-sharpening expert here showed me. Off the strops, the hanging hair was almost severing itself in order to avoid the edge--"too sharp" in other words. Shaving with the razor lying flat on the first pass quickly took off a small skin bump that had been there for several weeks and introduced a small cut in a small hollow area where my cheek meets the jawline. If I had been using a "smoother" edge, this wouldn't have happened, it would have been more forgiving. Going to put the razor on a smoothed, larger translucent Ark now to see if this will tame it.
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Shapton 30k are notorious for causing chipped edges. That would explain the harshness. Sharp definitely doesn't mean harsh.
Sharp and smooth is where its at and I think everyone would want that edge.
I think everyone agree that coticule edges are very smooth but some some they lack some keenness.
One of the sharpest edges I can produce is off film followed by CBN spray on the glass backed nano cloth, but they are very harsh.
I have settled on JNATs for me they provide the best of both worlds for my needs.
I think everyone agree that coticule edges are very smooth but some some they lack some keenness.
One of the sharpest edges I can produce is off film followed by CBN spray on the glass backed nano cloth, but they are very harsh.
I have settled on JNATs for me they provide the best of both worlds for my needs.
I'm inclined to agree with you here, Doc. I have enjoyed the Jnat edge you sent me, and the results I obtained with that Jnat picked up from Alex Gilmore were close to it as well--a cumulative blend of smoothness and sharpness arriving at the same time. I can approach this at times with the Arkansas stones, although the sensation is different, more on the smooth side, demanding more swashbuckling gusto while shaving (which I tend to enjoy). Only when "going over the top" with a 13k synth or pastes and then "coming back down" to a smoothed black Ark, do I get that blend of "sharp and smooth" that I think you are talking about with Jnats.
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i had a coticule not too long ago i bought direct from Ardennes and the edges from it were the keenest and smoothest of any stone I have used. Sadly for me it also provided a great reduction in a friends ingrown hairs problem of many years so off it went...
100+? To me, a 30 are sufficient to finish an edge coming from a 8000K stone on my ZG.
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Perhaps your particular stone is slightly different from the masses. It is a natural remember. They tested the stone extensively on the other forum and the consensus was that it was a slow stone that had average results.
I've had a couple that I sync'd with extremely well, those edges were screaming sharp.
Never got ingrowns from it myself but anyone predisposed to them would probably have been in trouble.
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