The Military Backhand

[Ray Zorblade]

Interesting post. I agree with you that it's unseemly for someone to look for something for nothing simply because they're on active duty or a vet. And you're also right in saying that not everybody in the military is a hero and not all heroes are in the military. At the same time, I don't see what the problem is with the honemaster story. If the honemaster wants to hone razors for free for soldiers, cowboys or astronauts, it seems to me like it's up to him. Likewise, if the owner of the razor wants to accept it, why not? I always thought that it was important to pay my way in life, but I'd be lying if I said that I returned every free beer that someone sent me when I was a young man in my dress blues.

I don't have a problem with the free services. I had a problem with the idea that one person is more patriotic than another person because they provided a free service to a military member.

I'm not against rewards, I would just like more modesty. But even then, if it's just me, I guess maybe its my issue.

 

[riooso]

Hey just lay back and enjoy it from an appreciative citizen! Someone gives you a seat on the train or whatever just enjoy of because he probably figures that you may sitting in a water filled foxhole or under a rock in the desert next week. If you are on your way back then it makes up for the rock that you had to sit under last week.

I grew up in the Viet Nam era, although I never served, and there are a lot of us out here that will make damn sure that a service man is treaded with respect and thanked when the opportunity arises. No big deal, just a quiet thanks!

It was Mark Twain who made the statement "If you want to make an enemy for life, turn down a favor". So shut up and take the dinner for your wife and yourself and take the seat that is offered. I would do no less for my family members that are in the mix today.


Take Care,
Richard

 

[texbilly]

No, I don't feel backhanded by the public recognition and displays of appreciation of the military members here.

The quote that you referenced in the OP from Slaglerock's sig is among my favorite quotes

Absolutely!

I don't think anyone on this board thinks that only military members have honor, that is just too far fetched an idea for any of the intelligient folk here to swallow.

God Bless Our Service Men and Women.
God Bless those who support them and show gratitude, in whatever fashion that may be.
God Bless B&B for providing the platform for that gratitude to be expressed.

Thank you, Phil. Thank you.

 

[Ray Zorblade]

7 out of 12 people responding here have no veteran or active duty tag and say they don't feel that way.
The 5 who do never said they think they deserve "more".
The 5 who did respond mostly responded to particular aspects of your original post.
My response for example refuted the idea that only Military members were thanked for risking their lives when that is patently false.
It also referred to a signature quote that you inferred was offensive to non-military persons, and my response included an attempt to explain the "blank check" quote.
I don't see any vets or otherwise asserting that they "deserve more".

I understand the quote. It just seems like someone should be telling him that instead of him saying that about himself. In effect, when he says it, it comes across like, "That is Honor, and there are way too many people UNLIKE ME in this country who no longer understand it." That's why I called it a backhand. This isn't about who deserves what. It's about not insulting people that don't fit a definition you provided and it's also about active duty/vets trying to demonstrate a little modesty.

And yes, I apologize to the member with the signature line discussed for pretty much dragging him through the mud in an effort to discuss this topic.

 

[richmondesi]

For the record, the recognition of vets isn't a result of them asking for anything. It's because the community honors what they do, and asked them to answer the roll call so they could be recognized. It's a classy move, IMHO.

I remember my dad (Navy) and I discussed this a couple of years ago, and he said that most vets that he's ever talked to didn't really want any extra recognition. But they would graciously accept tokens of appreciation (from a thank you to picking up their tab at a restaurant). With all due respect, if someone is doing something that I feel is worthy of respect, gratitude, praise (whatever)- I'm going to give it to them irrespective of whether they asked for it or not...

Another thing that I remember my dad saying that sticks out was "never look down at those who look up to you"

 

[luvmysuper]

I understand the quote. It just seems like someone should be telling him that instead of him saying that about himself. In effect, when he says it, it comes across like, "That is Honor, and there are way too many people UNLIKE ME in this country who no longer understand it." That's why I called it a backhand. This isn't about who deserves what. It's about not insulting people that don't fit a definition you provided and it's also about active duty/vets trying to demonstrate a little modesty.

And yes, I apologize to SlagleRock for pretty much dragging him through the mud in an effort to discuss this topic.

I understand your take on it. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.
Though it may come across to you like "That is Honor, and there are way too many people UNLIKE ME" He didn't say that, and you can't gig people for what they didn't say.
Implication blame is a dead end road.
You seem like a very modest and reserved individual, and I can appreciate your personal desire to shed the limelight elsewhere.
You certainly have enough experience to know that;
1. There are a lot more Military folks that are Type A people as opposed to the withdrawn type.
2. Displays of Unit / Service pride is pretty common.
I interpret Slaglerocks sig quote in that fashion.
The quote itself comes from an internet circulated story about people helping soldiers on an flight.
I think he read it, felt it ring true, and adopted it as a sig quote from the story, so it's not as if he made the line up himself.
I don't really understand the bit about "active duty/vets trying to demonstrate a little modesty", I haven't seen any Active Duty or Vets here being braggarts.
You keep pinging on the same issue about "deserving more", even in the post that this response is replying to.
No one, ever, anywhere, at any time said that they think they deserve more of anything. That is all from you.
As a wise poster replied earlier - this is not a zero-sum result.
You can call someone a patriot, and having done so does NOT mean that one less person more "deserving" cannot now be called one.
This "deserving" thing seems to be a central core in your posts, and I hope that whatever it is that happened in your experience to make you feel that way was not too rough on you.
Thanks for your service, and God bless you.

 

[Obsessed]

I understand the quote. It just seems like someone should be telling him that instead of him saying that about himself. In effect, when he says it, it comes across like, "That is Honor, and there are way too many people UNLIKE ME in this country who no longer understand it." That's why I called it a backhand. This isn't about who deserves what. It's about not insulting people that don't fit a definition you provided and it's also about active duty/vets trying to demonstrate a little modesty.

And yes, I apologize to the member with the signature line discussed for pretty much dragging him through the mud in an effort to discuss this topic.

To be fair to the OP, I can see how the quote in question might be read the way you suggest. I certainly don't think it was used with that intention, and frankly it hadn't really occurred to me until I read this thread, but I can see how someone might think that.

As far as the other stuff - tags, PIFs, etc., I say have at it. You guys go through a lot, even if you serve in peacetime, and deserve a few perks. You also deserve the option to decline those perks, if you prefer.

 

[texquill]

I don't know enough about the OP to be able to decide where he's coming from. Consequently, without wanting to be argumentative, I'd just like to state my opposing position.

I was raised in a military household, the son of an Air Force officer. I was taught to believe "my country, right or wrong". I received a draft notice in 1966 and, as a result, spent the next four years in the service. Several times while in uniform, I was subjected to ridicule by people my age who didn't understand that it was possible to serve one's country even if one didn't agree with the direction the country was taking.

After being discharged, I went to college - again, on occasion, having the experience of being scorned for having done my duty.

My experiences have made me who I am. Part of who I am is a guy who's proud of having served my country, and who feels grateful to the folks who are currently standing strong to ensure that I continue to have my freedom.

I still get pleasure from singing the National Anthem, and I fly a flag at my home 24/7 to show my pride in my country. (Yes, the flag is properly lighted at night.) And, again, I have immense gratitude that there are still guys and gals who are willing to serve and to make sure I have the RIGHT to be proud of my country!

I make no apology for any of this, nor do I feel any other veteran, including the OP, should apologize on my behalf for the pride I have to be a veteran.

 

[Ray Zorblade]

For the record, the recognition of vets isn't a result of them asking for anything. It's because the community honors what they do, and asked them to answer the roll call so they could be recognized. It's a classy move, IMHO.

I remember my dad (Navy) and I discussed this a couple of years ago, and he said that most vets that he's ever talked to didn't really want any extra recognition. But they would graciously accept tokens of appreciation (from a thank you to picking up their tab at a restaurant). With all due respect, if someone is doing something that I feel is worthy of respect, gratitude, praise (whatever)- I'm going to give it to them irrespective of whether they asked for it or not...

Another thing that I remember my dad saying that sticks out was "never look down at those who look up to you"

I agree with your Dad. The thing is, it doesn't seem like many vets are too quiet about it these days. I'm saying be proud, but modest. If someone wins a marathon race, I'd pat him on the back. However, if he walks around with the trophy for a week and brings it up in conversation after conversation, I'm not going to give him that pat on the back. I'm concerned that by overly promoting ourselves, we can breed resentment.

 

[Topgumby]

Damn, I thought this was going to be a tennis thread.

 

[Stubblefield]

Damn, I thought this was going to be a tennis thread.

Me too.

There are plenty of other jobs that people risk there lives to benefit society in general. They don't seem to get this kind of special attention.

Anyway, it's a simple question really, and answering yes doesn't have to mean that you don't appreciate the military. Do you ever feel like you are getting backhanded?

That is a great question. I happen to have one of those "other" jobs. However, I don't feel slighted by the courtesy extended to either active-duty or vets on the forum, or in everyday life for that matter.

Some of the flag-waving that I see occasionally (sigs, mostly)I can do without, tho. But that is no more than a minor nit.

 

[Ray Zorblade]

I understand your take on it. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.
Though it may come across to you like "That is Honor, and there are way too many people UNLIKE ME" He didn't say that, and you can't gig people for what they didn't say.
Implication blame is a dead end road.
You seem like a very modest and reserved individual, and I can appreciate your personal desire to shed the limelight elsewhere.
You certainly have enough experience to know that;
1. There are a lot more Military folks that are Type A people as opposed to the withdrawn type.
2. Displays of Unit / Service pride is pretty common.
I interpret Slaglerocks sig quote in that fashion.
The quote itself comes from an internet circulated story about people helping soldiers on an flight.
I think he read it, felt it ring true, and adopted it as a sig quote from the story, so it's not as if he made the line up himself.
I don't really understand the bit about "active duty/vets trying to demonstrate a little modesty", I haven't seen any Active Duty or Vets here being braggarts.
You keep pinging on the same issue about "deserving more", even in the post that this response is replying to.
No one, ever, anywhere, at any time said that they think they deserve more of anything. That is all from you.
As a wise poster replied earlier - this is not a zero-sum result.
You can call someone a patriot, and having done so does NOT mean that one less person more "deserving" cannot now be called one.
This "deserving" thing seems to be a central core in your posts, and I hope that whatever it is that happened in your experience to make you feel that way was not too rough on you.
Thanks for your service, and God bless you.

I keep bringing up "deserving" because I take it that people think I said military members don't deserve praise etc., and that isn't my point. My thought was that there is not enough modesty and military service is a bit "in your face" in this forum at times. I can see how people could be offended. That is my point. That is all. I'm not worried about what vets think about this. I'm worried about what the nonvets think about it. Jeez...I appreciate service. I did it. But look at my profile and you wouldn't know, because for me, that doesn't define who I am any more than being a member of this forum does. Everyone is different though.

I understand your point of view too. I've read many of your posts over time and this is actually the first time I don't agree with you. I do respect your opinion.

 

[professorchaos]

Doesn't faze me in the least.

I know more than a few members of the armed services. Their tours all entailed sacrifice for the country. A friend in the Navy didn't see combat, but missed a hell of a lot going leaving his wife and child to go to sea for months at a time. A couple of Marines I know, one of whom I've known most of my life, have spent plenty of time in Iraq the past few years.

So no, I can't be insulted if those who've served take pride in their service.

 

[petr]

Yes, I was an officer, so as you requested, I won't tell you who you are talking with.

Ah, no wonder you had a hard time articulating your idea.

Just having some fun with you.

I understand your point now I think; this over the top public grandstanding.

But in the case of this forum, there are many guys who are deployed and still posting to B&B from Iraq. Of course this seems crazy to me because I never dreamed of such immediate access to the outside world while deployed. There are even more gents who are recently returned. I think this makes the culture here more open to patriotic statements.

 

[thirdeye]

I'm talking about things like a signature line (of a highly reputable member) that says, "A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America " for an amount of "up to and including my life." That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it." To me, that implies that if you aren't a vet, you don't have honor. I think he means well and it offers praise to the military, but doesn't it sting a bit if you aren't in the club?

There are also the "veteran" tags, the vets forum, PIFS for military only, etc. To all of these, I also say I appreciate the intent, but due to their exclusionary nature, it seems to me that they detract from the "brotherhood" aspect of this forum.

Anyway, it's a simple question really, and answering yes doesn't have to mean that you don't appreciate the military. Do you ever feel like you are getting backhanded?

I read this and think hmmmm, Do you feel slighted in some way sir. I believe it strengthens this brotherhood. I believe that every man and woman that served is a special person and I believe all should be recognized as so. Yes all people are special in their own way and yes there are dangerous jobs out there that folks do every day. That said, saying, "I will stand and face that bullet so that you can be free" is much different, at least in my opinion.

I have read and read read your first post in this thread and for the life of me, I sit hear and wonder to myself," What is he thinking? He's a lifer, I don't get it...What am I missing?"...and the answer comes in the form of a question. Do you feel slighted?

.

And yes, I apologize to the member with the signature line discussed for pretty much dragging him through the mud in an effort to discuss this topic.

I know I don't need to speak for Rob hear but I'm willing to bet he'd so no need to apoligize for this. This is nothing close to being dragged through the mud. His skin is much more thick than that....Hell he's had to deal with me....

Sir, I served my country with a blank check just as you did and I am damn proud of it....Personally I appretiate it when someone simply says thank you!

 

[JRichmond]

Interesting discussion. I'm of the opinion (also from the pov of a servicemember) that the kids today that actively sign up and volunteer to serve in their country's military are almost by definition exactly what a hero is, as defined by Webster's:

1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b : an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d : one that shows great courage

Anyone in this day and age that signs a document that places them into the service of their country is doing so in time of conflict (war?). The possibility that even the lowliest PFC or LCPL Light Wheeled Mechanic, who thought they'd spend all day in the Motor Pool fixing trucks, will face the very real possibility of being hit by an IED/Rocket Attack/Suicide Bomber pretty much EVERY day of a deployment...speaks very highly of that individual in my opinion.

Yes, many sign up to pay off college or whatever other personal reason. The fact remains, that there are far safer opportunities for these kid's to do the same thing.

Now the guys like me, who joined in time of peace, and then all this stuff kicked off? I stayed in for several reasons: I like my job, I get paid fairly well, and I wouldn't feel right getting out just because of the situation we find our country today. I understand that the primary reasons I stay in are selfish in nature, so I do understand your point of view. However, I've spent a lot of time in a lot of places where it was more than just embarrassing to state your pride in service...it was potentially dangerous, so I don't begrudge anyone that has the opportunity to be appreciated in a forum where people seem to genuinely applaud their service.

As a matter of fact, I was discussing PIFs with another member (I didn't even know what it was), and he told me that because I am active duty I could probably get one. I don't want it. I want that PFC or Airman or Seaman or Marine to get it. Those kids that join and never had an idea of what they were stepping into and getting paid next to nothing for it deserve it far more than me. If you were/are an officer, I thank you for your service, but at the same time I'm not sure you can completely understand the real fear that some of these young soldiers feel.

I hope that this isn't a harsh rebuttal of your view, but I genuinely believe that anyone that shows a genuine appreciation of our soldiers (and for the most part that's what I've seen in my brief time surfing these boards) should be appreciated. They're doing what many generations before them have failed to do: show support for those that desire little more than that.

 

[Sterling Cooper]

As a non-vet, I really don't have a problem with it. I agree that simply being a vet does not automatically make one a hero. Perhaps there is a little bit of overcompensation in our society in that direction, but it's rooted in the best of intentions of making up for a period when vets were ignored at best.

I've read the particular signature quote, and it really made me think. Sure, someone might join the military and do nothing more stressful than ordering hamburger meat out of a Pentagon office. I also realize that they might join and get their asses dropped into Normandy. What I think that quote seeks to recognize is that by joining, they are willing and ready to accept the latter.

From my own perspective, I was an FSO for several years (hold the striped pants cracks, Grunts). I served in a few highly sensitive areas (Pretoria before the end of apartheid, Prague and Kiev immediately after the fall of the Iron Curtain and Soviet Union respectively). Obviously, we had Marine guards at all of the embassies. I think I speak for every FSO that I ever met that it was a very humbling thing to know that these kids, with whom we shared little in common, were willing and ready to lay down their lives to protect us should the bad guys have ever come over the walls of the embassy.

A vet tag or a special pif doesn't bother me at all.

 

[richmondesi]

... snip...

Well said

 

[Bushranger]

Good point, Sir.

Excellent. In that case I request my "foreign" tag preceding my "veteran" tag

Well...I think it's kind of funny how many of the responses are from active duty members or vets that think everything I mentioned is great. That's kind of my point to begin with. I'd like to hear the civilians saying the active duty/vets deserve more, rather than the active duty/vets saying they deserve more.

PM me if you are a civilian who isn't comfortable responding to this post publicly. I promise to honor your privacy.

I am not surprised. The military is, among many things a microcosm of society.

Interesting post. <snip> If the honemaster wants to hone razors for free for soldiers, cowboys or astronauts, it seems to me like it's up to him.

Looks like actor Larry Hagman qualifies. I think he has been all three.

<snip> asked them to answer the roll call so they could be recognized. It's a classy move, IMHO.

I remember my dad (Navy) and I discussed this a couple of years ago, and he said that most vets that he's ever talked to didn't really want any extra recognition. But they would graciously accept tokens of appreciation (from a thank you to picking up their tab at a restaurant). With all due respect, if someone is doing something that I feel is worthy of respect, gratitude, praise (whatever)- I'm going to give it to them irrespective of whether they asked for it or not...

Another thing that I remember my dad saying that sticks out was "never look down at those who look up to you"

token appreciated. I can't wait to see my new additional tag

I like having the veteran and active serving members visible. For me, it's all about knowing the community, and that's what B&B is, an international community. Crikey, we even know who the 'tagged' contributors are.

One thing related to tags that I would like to see is a Flag alongside member names (as optioned in chat). Can be country over nation for nationalists I suppose. example; Scottish or Welsh flag instead of Great Britain's Union Jack.

Before you ask Fidjit.....Tasmania is a state, not a separate country to Australia

 

[danek]

I'm old enough (late 30's) to remember a lot of public resentment toward veterans because 'they' didn't agree with an overtly unpopular opinion about the US's foreign policy. In today's time, the common opinion is that it's OK to value the duty served by the individuals regardless of the grand policy/politics. I appreciate what the individual serviceman/servicewoman has done, regardless of the reason they were ordered to do it.

I have never served my country in a military context, but I truly appreciate those who have. I agree that does not make me any less "patriotic", and I don't feel slighted at all that others wish to express their appreciation in whatever ways they deem appropriate.

If someone chooses to select a group of active service members, or veterans, or school teachers, or homeless pet volunteers; I applaud their thoughtfulness.

To all men and women who have served their country, in the military or otherwise, thank you; from the bottom of my heart. Thank you.


Edit: I do not necessarily put volunteering for homeless pets in the same context as fighting on behalf of your country; I'm merely stating that there is value in many duties served.