The first time my edge has been TOO SHARP

[SavantStrike]

Sorry about that, I posted before I got all my thoughts down... Do you think that the C12K feels smooth in a similar manner to how the CrOx feels smooth?

I never had much success with either. The C12K was far too slow and the CrOx felt unpolished, for lack of a better descriptor. Being the stubborn sort, it took me a while to figure out that my honing was fine, I just didn't like the edge.

It's all good

Bothy crox and the 12k are smooth in a similar manner. I can only describe it as very silky, but not as sharp as other methods. The lapping film left a much more aggressive edge on the blade that seemed to "grip" the hairs as they were cut, whereas with the C12k, it just sort of slices them. It's sharp enough to cut, but also quite forgiving and comfortable (which is important as my skin seems to be pretty sensitive).

To be honest I'm not even sure how much the crox does for a blade besides smooths it out. After a 100-200 passes on a slow stone like a C12k though, there isn't much left to smooth, and I often don't do more than a few half hearted passes on crox after I'm done with the C12k, and the edge doesn't feel all that different.

I usually find myself pretty much shaving straight off of the 12k, with extra passes on chalk pasted linen to start with. When I tried the lapping films, the edge was a bit "harsh" for my taste and I ended up giving it so many passes on crox that it felt just like it did straight off of the 12k .

 

[tg16]

I have a kitayama and a spyderco UF. I find that I get my most comfortable shaves with the spyderco then a few laps on chromium followed by the canvas and leather strops. I am influenced by my preference to the feedback I get with the spyderco.

If I liked the kitayama more (don't get me wrong as I don't dislike it) I would probably do better honing with it.

 

[sapito318]

Maybe instead of going to the crox and lapping films, try stropping the heck out of it. My ERN was really smooth for the first pass but was noticibly rougher the second go around. This was off of 45 passes on TM red latigo strop. The next shave, I used the same razor but gave it a full 100 passes on the strop and the shave was spectacular. Each razor is different or course, but I feel that the strop gets the edge just right.

Crox is also much smoother than diamond pastes, and makes for a less aggressive edge, IMO.

 

[sapito318]

I have a kitayama and a spyderco UF. I find that I get my most comfortable shaves with the spyderco then a few laps on chromium followed by the canvas and leather strops. I am influenced by my preference to the feedback I get with the spyderco.

If I liked the kitayama more (don't get me wrong as I don't dislike it) I would probably do better honing with it.

I too follow this routine. I finish on my Spyderco UF and then move to the crox paddle strop for 20 passes, and finish up with a good 50-100 passes on the leather strop depending on if I am going to shave immediately or not.

 

[professorchaos]

To be honest I'm not even sure how much the crox does for a blade besides smooths it out. After a 100-200 passes on a slow stone like a C12k though, there isn't much left to smooth, and I often don't do more than a few half hearted passes on crox after I'm done with the C12k, and the edge doesn't feel all that different.

Interesting....I am going to have to try getting a razor too sharp and knocking it back a notch or two the the CrOx. Which means a new straight! Thank you. Thank you very much.

 

[SavantStrike]

Interesting....I am going to have to try getting a razor too sharp and knocking it back a notch or two the the CrOx. Which means a new straight! Thank you. Thank you very much.

I like your style .

But couldn't you just get one of your current blades too sharp?

Wait.. no. That wouldn't be any fun .

Maybe instead of going to the crox and lapping films, try stropping the heck out of it. My ERN was really smooth for the first pass but was noticibly rougher the second go around. This was off of 45 passes on TM red latigo strop. The next shave, I used the same razor but gave it a full 100 passes on the strop and the shave was spectacular. Each razor is different or course, but I feel that the strop gets the edge just right.

Crox is also much smoother than diamond pastes, and makes for a less aggressive edge, IMO.

Oh absolutely. Stropping is definitely where it's at. Not only is it a lot of fun, but it makes a huge difference in the edge.

After I had gotten my canvas (okay nylon ) strop and pasted it with white chalk, I touched up the edge on my blade. I had a good shave the first time I used the "new" edge, but a couple shaves in I just knew the blade was smoother than it was during the first shave. I figured it had to be from all the extra passes I was doing on the canvas.

The trouble is, even after I get a good shave, I sometimes start wondering if maybe it couldn't be a bit better if I tweaked the edge a bit more...

I think I have dulled my edge more screwing around with extra passes on crox and putzing with it than I have shaving .

Well, that and my n00bish stropping.

My next experiment is to touch up a blade and give it the treatment on the canvas. I usually do about 50-75 laps on canvas with a freshly touched up blade, but hearing mparker's good experience with doing 200-300 laps makes me want to try that.

I think messing with the edge may be a sickness. Fortunately I can't feed HAD, or it would be a lot worse for me .

 

[professorchaos]

Of course it requires a new razor. At this point, I need the justification! Many razors, too few shaves in a day.

Did you paste the canvas with plain old white chalk or special canvas pasting chalk? What affect is it intended to have? How have I not heard of this practice until now?

 

[mparker762]

Did you paste the canvas with plain old white chalk or special canvas pasting chalk? What affect is it intended to have? How have I not heard of this practice until now?

Dovo White Paste is chalk.

It's surprising what you can hone a razor with. Dovo Black is graphite.

 

[SavantStrike]

Of course it requires a new razor. At this point, I need the justification! Many razors, too few shaves in a day.

Did you paste the canvas with plain old white chalk or special canvas pasting chalk? What affect is it intended to have? How have I not heard of this practice until now?

Mine isn't special chalk, it's just plain old white chalk from the hardware store. Although for some reason I could swear whatever agent is used to bind it into a stick smells like shea butter .

Dovo White Paste is chalk.

It's surprising what you can hone a razor with. Dovo Black is graphite.

Just the man who clued me in to the whole chalk thing .

I have to admit though, I went off the deep end when I bought it from harbor freight. The shipping price bracket was such that it looked like I would pay the same amount of money for shipping for one stick as I would for three sticks... so I got three...

I sold one stick, and the two sticks I've got left are going to be a lifetime (or more) supply .

 

[GsSixgun]

So I am going to ask, HOW DO YOU NOT SHARPEN A RAZOR AS MUCH??????

Fairly simple question guys because all I have seen you all talk about is the finishing stages of the process....

Which means that you are comparing Harshness -vs-Smoothness

Now if somebody says well Glen at the 4k level of my process I don't want the razor popping arm hair I want it not quite that sharp and at the 8k level I want to have to struggle to pop arm hair and when I shave I want to actually have to use a bit of pressure for the edge to cut my beard....
Do you see what I am saying here???

So are we actually comparing the finishing stage of the honing process here OR are you guys actually saying that you back off the sharpness in the 1k 4k 8k ranges (it doesn't matter the stone(s) you use) or the bevel set , sharpening, polishing stages....


I will say this over and over and over... Finishing is a personal preference and really does not have much to do with getting a razor sharp...
How a razor is finished is either a decision of an experienced shaver that has developed a taste for a certain finish or the decision of the Honemiester as to his experience with that razor brand and steel.....

But the razor has to be Shaving Sharp first before you can decide on the finish....

 

[professorchaos]

So I am going to ask, HOW DO YOU NOT SHARPEN A RAZOR AS MUCH??????

Fairly simple question guys because all I have seen you all talk about is the finishing stages of the process....

Which means that you are comparing Harshness -vs-Smoothness

Now if somebody says well Glen at the 4k level of my process I don't want the razor popping arm hair I want it not quite that sharp and at the 8k level I want to have to struggle to pop arm hair and when I shave I want to actually have to use a bit of pressure for the edge to cut my beard....
Do you see what I am saying here???

So are we actually comparing the finishing stage of the honing process here OR are you guys actually saying that you back off the sharpness in the 1k 4k 8k ranges (it doesn't matter the stone(s) you use) or the bevel set , sharpening, polishing stages....


I will say this over and over and over... Finishing is a personal preference and really does not have much to do with getting a razor sharp...
How a razor is finished is either a decision of an experienced shaver that has developed a taste for a certain finish or the decision of the Honemiester as to his experience with that razor brand and steel.....

But the razor has to be Shaving Sharp first before you can decide on the finish....

I've learned a lot from your posts over the few years I've been straight shaving, and this does seem to be a point you take great pains to drive home. So if you wouldn't mind, please clarify: if sharpening and finishing a razor are mutually exclusive, at what point does sharpening become finishing? Alternatively, it seems to me that the difference between a 1K hone and 50K hone is a matter of scale. Each contains abrasive material which refines the edge by removing metal. Adjusted for the vastly different scale, the action on the edge is the essentially same.

Isn't the razor's finish is an attribute created by the hones chosen to sharpen it? Should I want a different finish to keep things interesting, I'll choose different hones to sharpen the razor. I guess what I am saying is that I don't really distinguish between sharpening and finishing; the razor is finished when it is sufficiently sharp. Perhaps I should make that distinction?

 

[GsSixgun]

Here is what I have found, not any scientific proof or anything, just what I have found to be true in practice... BTW I have found this to be true when we are all sitting around a table at the meet ups where we can hone a razor and have a Newb shave with it right then and there, so I am pretty darn confident in my honing theories...

You set a bevel at around 1k
You sharpen a razor to hair popping sharpness at around 4k
You polish that razor to shaving sharpness around 8k
and finally you finish that razor IF YOU WANT TO at over 10k (doesn't matter stone or paste)

It doesn't matter what stones or combo's of stone you use, even using a single coti you still take these steps...

Overhoning is overhoning and it is harder to do than most believe...

Pasted strops can make or break an edge really, really fast...

Pressure is bad

I think when people say too sharp they mean "It feels harsh"
which IS NOT too sharp, the razor has to be shaving sharp, after that is all smoothness... Now where you want that feel to land is up to you as the honer...

What I really am saying is at 8k every razor should be shaving sharp, but each person might want to go a different direction from that point.... you are not going to get much "sharpness" at that level you are going to smooth it up more than thin it up...
So no sharpness and smoothness are not mutually exclusive it just changes seats as you go up in grit, lower grits more for sharpness higher grits more for smoothness.... I hope that sorta makes sense ....

 

[professorchaos]

Thanks Glenn, I appreciate it! You answered what would have been my follow up too.

 

[SavantStrike]

I also found this useful.

I think next time I'll just say the edge was too harsh?

Both of these test edges were coming off of the same norton 8k, so I guess both were equally sharp, just one was more polished.

That does confuse me though because it means polish is a relative thing. The edge feels the smoothest to me coming straight off of my C12k, with extra passes on the white chalk pasted hanging strop, and maybe 1-4 swipes on crox.

If smoothness means polish, then why does the edge feel less smooth off of .1 micron diamond lapping film? Can I look at this and say that the edge is less polished on a .1 micron abrasive than it was on .3 micron abrasive (admittedly a different abrasive)?

 

[Chimensch]

Glenn,

When I took delivery of my 7-day set in May, TI told me that they had just purchased some new sharpening machine and they used it on my razors. So, I started shaving with them just as they were. All I can tell you is that they cut me repeatedly as soon as they came anywhere near my face. They weren't "harsh", they were too sharp.

My experiences with pastes have been mixed. I like the feel of the blade off of CrOx must it never lasts more than a couple of shaves for me and more paste doesn't bring it back.

I finally settled on a coticule because the edge is smooth, sharp enough for a good shave and remarkably durable, by which I mean, it holds the edge after months and months of stropping. No other hone has given me such a durable edge, not even my original Swaty.

I am open to the possibility that I am not that good of a honer but, on the other hand, I only have one customer and he's very satisfied.

 

[GsSixgun]

I also found this useful.

I think next time I'll just say the edge was too harsh?

Both of these test edges were coming off of the same norton 8k, so I guess both were equally sharp, just one was more polished.

That does confuse me though because it means polish is a relative thing. The edge feels the smoothest to me coming straight off of my C12k, with extra passes on the white chalk pasted hanging strop, and maybe 1-4 swipes on crox.

If smoothness means polish, then why does the edge feel less smooth off of .1 micron diamond lapping film? Can I look at this and say that the edge is less polished on a .1 micron abrasive than it was on .3 micron abrasive (admittedly a different abrasive)?

You cannot compare different medias, it doesn't matter what any of the numbers say, they are not the same grit, or feel...
For example .50 diamond and .50 CrOx and .50 CeOx will all give a different feel.. In fact .50 Diamond for instance will change feeling off of different surfaces.. balsa vs leather vs felt all feel different....

Glenn,

When I took delivery of my 7-day set in May, TI told me that they had just purchased some new sharpening machine and they used it on my razors. So, I started shaving with them just as they were. All I can tell you is that they cut me repeatedly as soon as they came anywhere near my face. They weren't "harsh", they were too sharp.

My experiences with pastes have been mixed. I like the feel of the blade off of CrOx must it never lasts more than a couple of shaves for me and more paste doesn't bring it back.

I finally settled on a coticule because the edge is smooth, sharp enough for a good shave and remarkably durable, by which I mean, it holds the edge after months and months of stropping. No other hone has given me such a durable edge, not even my original Swaty.

I am open to the possibility that I am not that good of a honer but, on the other hand, I only have one customer and he's very satisfied.

Just so we are on the same page, your Coticule will get the edge just as "sharp" as just about any other quality 8k stone, But because of the unique qualities of the Coticule it takes it to a different smoothness level... Many people feel the edges off of Naturals feel more comfortable to their face....This is the personal preference thing I was talking about...
But sharpness wise I am betting you are within one micron of any other 8k stone....

As to your bad luck with pastes I can't tell ya the answer for sure without seeing you actually strop the razor in person... I learned much at the last meet up about stropping, we really as more Senior members of all the forums need to write much, much, more about how to do it correctly....

The other thing we are not even discussing here is the razor, different grinds and steels like different stones and pastes....

Your TI set was most likely "Sharp" but not well polished, creating a dangerous razor, one that digs into the skin....

that is a whole other thread discusion....

 

[Tolduonce]

So I am going to ask, HOW DO YOU NOT SHARPEN A RAZOR AS MUCH??????

Fairly simple question guys because all I have seen you all talk about is the finishing stages of the process....

Which means that you are comparing Harshness -vs-Smoothness

Now if somebody says well Glen at the 4k level of my process I don't want the razor popping arm hair I want it not quite that sharp and at the 8k level I want to have to struggle to pop arm hair and when I shave I want to actually have to use a bit of pressure for the edge to cut my beard....
Do you see what I am saying here???

So are we actually comparing the finishing stage of the honing process here OR are you guys actually saying that you back off the sharpness in the 1k 4k 8k ranges (it doesn't matter the stone(s) you use) or the bevel set , sharpening, polishing stages....


I will say this over and over and over... Finishing is a personal preference and really does not have much to do with getting a razor sharp...
How a razor is finished is either a decision of an experienced shaver that has developed a taste for a certain finish or the decision of the Honemiester as to his experience with that razor brand and steel.....

But the razor has to be Shaving Sharp first before you can decide on the finish....

Good points Glen. I think you described my situation exactly. Sometimes I intentionally go for the edge that is downright harsh. Put the blade flat on your face, adjust the angle, begin a pass and I instantly feel it starting to bite and decrease the angle. The auditory feed back is harsh and after the first full pass the edge has calmed down to standard sharpness levels. After the second pass, I usually am considering restropping a few strokes (but typically don't). After the third pass, I make a mental note to hit the crox/balsa paddle four or five times. It could be a burr/wire edge thing going on. I'm too new to honing to know if it is or isn't. Don't ask me why I do this, it surely is maintenance intensive and metal wasting. Probably just a testosterone thing. For the record, I always defer to the honemeister's standards when sending a razor out for honing.
If you read this and want to comment on poorly polished, skin digging edges, I'm all ears, er eyes.

 

[TstebinsB]

But the razor has to be Shaving Sharp first before you can decide on the finish....

Are you saying either of these:
1. An edge can't be sharpened on a finishing grit - it can only be made smoother.
2. If an edge can be sharpened on a finishing grit, then it wasn't sharp enough before you went to the finishing grit.

I think when people say too sharp they mean "It feels harsh"
which IS NOT too sharp, the razor has to be shaving sharp, after that is all smoothness... Now where you want that feel to land is up to you as the honer...

I think an edge that is too sharp is actually too thin, which causes microchipping or crumbling under the pressuring of shaving, which in turn makes the edge feel uncomfortably harsh.

 

[English]

Sharp, shiny, smooth, harsh, soft.

Non of this really helps me to hone or shave. It's interesting but it really doesn't help.

All that matters to me is that the razors edge will consistently give me a daily shave that is close but comfortable which means that I feel no ill effects on my skin. I also expect that the edge with a daily stropping will last a reasonable time. If I go away for three weeks for example, I would expect a freshly honed razor to provide me with a daily shave during my holiday. I think that these are reasonable minimum expectations from a freshly honed razor.

Because I can hone and strop a razor myself, I am able to to put an edge on my own razors which does the job. I suppose for me it is the perfect edge.

I can however hone an edge on my razors that can be too sharp or not sharp enough. I find either state to be unsatisfactory and uncomfortable. I have purchased many razors from guys who know how to hone and on occasion I have found some to be too sharp, some to be perfect and some to be not sharp enough, I can however see, test and know if the razor has been well honed or not. I don't blame the honer for not knowing my personal preferences.

The problem with honing for others is that comfort is very subjective. I am always conscious of this when I hone a razor and when I describe it as shave ready. By that I mean that I have test shaved it against the grain with no discomfort. There is no way I can be sure the buyer will find it to his liking.

My own razors are presently finished on a 8000 grit Japanese synthetic hone and stropped on a horsehide. I have hones and pastes that I can use to finish a razor that go up to 50,000 grit and they will make the edge much much sharper. I however find them uncomfortable, too sharp.

I have found that if I finish a freshly honed razor on Chromium oxide, most men are satisfied and will say I did a great honing job. The problem is that such an edge will fail to perform after very few shaves and I therefore think it is cheating the customer. Anybody can run a blade over a paste if they want to soften the edge for comfort but it will shorten the period between honings considerably.

So yes a razor can be too sharp and comfort can be achieved at the cost of the edges shaving life.

Its a conundrum.

 

[GsSixgun]

Are you saying either of these:
1. An edge can't be sharpened on a finishing grit - it can only be made smoother.
2. If an edge can be sharpened on a finishing grit, then it wasn't sharp enough before you went to the finishing grit.

I think an edge that is too sharp is actually too thin, which causes microchipping or crumbling under the pressuring of shaving, which in turn makes the edge feel uncomfortably harsh.

You have to be very careful as to how you answer those questions, some people think in very small terms so no they would not be true... Any abrasive will eventually sharpen, even water running over the blade in 1 million years will wear away metal...
Now in practical terms your stones over 10k are designed to take off very little metal and to smooth up the edge, but they do take off metal...



Refer back to my statement of Overhoning is Overhoning.... You have to do something wrong to overhone an edge....
Again edges are limited to how thin they can get, go farther than that by using pressure, or repeated laps on paste, and you push the edge past its limit and it fails...