Tape or not (no, not the same old question)

[Steve56]

If I'm going to attempt to touch up the edge myself once my strop seems ineffective (I've got some film and glass plates), do I need to tape?

I would since you are still finding your way. I’ve been there and done that, and tape that duplicates the original (to you) condition will prevent excessive wear on the spine.

You will find your way, all of us were where you are now at one point. I’ve worn a few nice razors more than they needed to be while learning to hone. Learn the rolling X stroke, because very few straight razors are straight. Your goal is to have the toe, middle, and heel spend the same amount of time on the hone when the edge isn’t straight. Even if the blade is twisted or bent. This is quite do-able, it’s just repetition and practice, wax on, wax off.

Good honing sir!

 

[alpster]

My own personal take is simple if you are going to hone razors regularly including your own, which most people who own straight razors do, sometimes more out of experimentation than necessity, then at no point do you ever want to purposely change the bevel angle by removing metal from the spine, so for that reason only you should always use tape if you are not bothered by bevel angles or hone-ware to the spine then fine that's your call.

As steveclarkus points out below, if you tape the spine you change the bevel angle every time you hone.

I don't use tape - ever (except once on a wedge I honed for someone else). If you use tape, you will need to use it every time you do a touchup. Razors were designed to hone just on the spine. The spine and edge will wear at the same time and maintain a consistent bevel. Using tape will affect the geometry as the edge will be wearing while the spine is not. I know there are many who use tape but I am not one of them but to each his own.

Steveclarkus is correct, taping the spine defeats the design of the razor to maintain the bevel angle as the razor wears over time from honing.

 

[Mr Bedlington]

As steveclarkus points out below, if you tape the spine you change the bevel angle every time you hone.

Steveclarkus is correct, taping the spine defeats the design of the razor to maintain the bevel angle as the razor wears over time from honing.

And by not taping you change the bevel angle, even more, every time you hone a razor, once you remove metal from the spine you instantly start to create a more acute bevel angle and a weaker apex, If you tape a brand new razor and use tape from day one, then once it comes to a refresh you are only going to a 12K and only a few strokes, the chance of altering the bevel angle will take you probably many many decades, I have NOS razors that I use this method on for decades and they are as new as the day they came from the factory including the bevel, sorry but your theory, in reality, makes zero sense, you start taking metal from the spine then you start drastically altering the geometry of the razor.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Regular maintenance honing should not remove enough material to cause noticeable changes in angle one way or the other. Whether you use tape or not.

If you remove significant amounts of material for whatever reason, it makes sense to keep track of the involved factors. This can include taping or not depending on the desired outcome.

 

[alpster]

And by not taping you change the bevel angle, even more, every time you hone a razor, once you remove metal from the spine you instantly start to create a more acute bevel angle and a weaker apex, If you tape a brand new razor and use tape from day one, then once it comes to a refresh you are only going to a 12K and only a few strokes, the chance of altering the bevel angle will take you probably many many decades, I have NOS razors that I use this method on for decades and they are as new as the day they came from the factory including the bevel, sorry but your theory, in reality, makes zero sense, you start taking metal from the spine then you start drastically altering the geometry of the razor.

View attachment 1659920

You actually make my point for me. When you hone, you wear away the edge and reduce the width of the blade and in order to maintain the 1 to 4 ratio, you must also wear the spine by 25%. This works out because the edge being much thinner will wear at a greater rate than the spine. Believe what you want, hone your razors however you like. Have a great day!

 

[Possum092]

Tape is cheap and replaceable; steel not so much. Have fun whatever route you go.

 

[Calou]

my 2 cents
@Mr Bedlington, @alpster you are both right because without tape it will depend on the pressure put on the spine and the edge during all honing.

IMO. As long as the bevel angle is in the correct range, not too high to keep the cutting force, and not low so you don't degrade your edge too quickly: that's great.
From my humble experience the most important is not the angle of the bevel but the state of the edge. when your edge is tired and no longer shaves, the angle of the bevel has not changed....

 

[Frank Shaves]

If your name is Mozart or Buddy Rich, don't use tape.

If, however, you are like the rest of us who put more pressure than necessary on the spine while learning to hone, trying using one layer of tape. One layer of 1 mil Kapton tape adds about 0.5 degrees to the bevel angle. One layer of 3M Scotch Super 88 adds about 1 degree.

If you honed your razor using 1 layer of Kapton and then want to stop using tape, you will need to go back to your 8k (or possibly your 4k) stone.

1 mil means 1 thousandth or 0.001 inch.

 

[Loner16]

Jamie is correct.

Honing without tape will thin the spine more that it will move the apex back. They do not wear proportionally. Gradually, the razor will lose included angle.

 

[gpjoe]

As expected, this thread has devolved into "tape vs no tape". Thankfully, I've gotten answers to my original question.

Since my razors (those which actually shave) were honed with electrical tape, I will continue to touch them up with tape until I can no longer remove hair, at which point I will attempt resetting the bevel without tape.

Thanks for all of the replies.

 

[Loner16]

As expected, this thread has devolved into "tape vs no tape".

It was inevitable!

 

[gpjoe]

Jamie is correct.

Honing without tape will thin the spine more that it will move the apex back. They do not wear proportionally. Gradually, the razor will lose included angle.

I'm not exactly sure what this means, so my question is, from a practical standpoint:

Does honing without tape affect the razor in a manner which prevents it from performing it's intended purpose?...in other words, other than removing metal from the spine (and admittedly altering the blade geometry) will the razor still take an edge that is just as capable of shaving as a taped razor?

I get that some are OCD about removing metal from the spine of their $500 razor (no judgement), but is there any other real-world, practical reason for using tape which translates to a better edge or better shaves?

 

[Mr Bedlington]

I'm not exactly sure what this means, so my question is, from a practical standpoint:

Does honing without tape affect the razor in a manner which prevents it from performing it's intended purpose?...in other words, other than removing metal from the spine (and admittedly altering the blade geometry) will the razor still take an edge that is just as capable of shaving as a taped razor?

I get that some are OCD about removing metal from the spine of their $500 razor (no judgement), but is there any other real-world, practical reason for using tape which translates to a better edge or better shaves?

When you sharpen knives have you ever heard anyone wanting to take metal directly from the spine, same applies to straight razors, you do not want your bevel to get bigger with a more acute angle on any sharp object, especially not on a straight razor with an angle that's already about 17.5 degrees, and this has nothing to do with if you have a razor worth $500 dollars or $50 I speak for myself I want to keep my razor bevel as close to the original bevel angle as possible, It's purely your own choice.

 

[JPO]

"but is there any other real-world, practical reason for using tape which translates to a better edge or better shaves?"
Any change in bevel angle will change the edge width behind the apex, which changes the cutting performance marginally.
A feather artist club blade has an inclusive angle of 19 deg. For my beard that is too obtuse. The blade will stall on my upper lip. Someone else might be perfectly fine with that angle.
So if one of my razor was developing in that direction I would grind my spine down to get the tool to work for me.

The spine is just the upper part of the bevel in my opinion. When you get a factory new razor it is quite common to establish a proper bevel geometry.
If you are not able to work on both the spine and the lower part of the bevel you are in most cases not going the get optimum results.
It is like trying to correct a damaged car frame by only allowing the front end to be corrected.
Find your bevel, set your bevel and refine your bevel.
Factory new are usually not exempt from this.

After that is done you can maintain it with or without tape.
If you are lucky the geometry is perfect.

 

[Loner16]

There are obviously two (at least) schools of thought... and that's OK. Each to their own..

The OP needs to scan and weigh the evidence, and come to his own decision.

 

[gpjoe]

"but is there any other real-world, practical reason for using tape which translates to a better edge or better shaves?"
Any change in bevel angle will change the edge width behind the apex, which changes the cutting performance marginally.
A feather artist club blade has an inclusive angle of 19 deg. For my beard that is too obtuse. The blade will stall on my upper lip. Someone else might be perfectly fine with that angle.
So if one of my razor was developing in that direction I would grind my spine down to get the tool to work for me.

The spine is just the upper part of the bevel in my opinion. When you get a factory new razor it is quite common to establish a proper bevel geometry.
If you are not able to work on both the spine and the lower part of the bevel you are in most cases not going the get optimum results.
It is like trying to correct a damaged car frame by only allowing the front end to be corrected.
Find your bevel, set your bevel and refine your bevel.
Factory new are usually not exempt from this.

After that is done you can maintain it with or without tape.
If you are lucky the geometry is perfect.

So, if I'm understanding correctly: you prefer a more acute angle which is achieved by honing without tape, but is a matter of personal preference. A more obtuse angle WILL shave, just not to your personal preference.

 

[JPO]

So, if I'm understanding correctly: you prefer a more acute angle which is achieved by honing without tape, but is a matter of personal preference. A more obtuse angle WILL shave, just not to your personal preference.

I prefer a razor with a bevel angle from 16 to 18 deg. Tape has nothing to do with this preference.
Tape is just one way to adjust this if the bevel angel becomes too accute for the steel to support it at a given refinement level.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Any time you hone, you're abrading steel off the bevel face which ultimately makes the blade shorter from spine to apex. This is inescapable. If you're using tape, the spine is staying a constant width while the overall blade width is getting shorter. So in this situation the bevel angle will be slowly getting more obtuse. If you're not using tape, both the spine and the bevel face are getting abraded. In a perfect world, the bevel angle would stay constant since the spine is getting narrower as the blade is getting shorter. In reality this is probably not true. Especially if a guy is heavy handed and not using torque to bias pressure to the bevel. Even with good technique, it might be possible that you'd abrade more from the spine than the bevel. In which case your angle would slowly be getting more acute.

For perspective, if you do the math, a typical 6/8-13/16 razor would need to have more than a millimeter honed off the edge to raise the bevel angle by a degree (assuming the spine was taped). Conversely, in order to keep the original angle you'd have to also take about .14mm off each side of the spine to counteract the effect of that 1mm.

It's not really a problem either way unless the blade's angle is at the low end (say, 15.5 degrees) or at the high end (say 18.5 degrees) to begin with. On the low end, I'd probably use 7 mil electrical tape to bump it up a degree unless the steel was capable of supporting such an angle. On the high end, I probably wouldn't use tape unless I was trying to protect the aesthetics, in which case I'd probably use 1 mil kapton.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

To answer the OP…

Yes, use tape as they were honed with tape. Even if the tape is not exactly the same thickness you will be much closer to the honed angle than honing without tape.

If you did not know if the razor was honed with tape, just paint the bevel with colored sharpie ink and do a single lap on a high grit stone or 1um film and see if all the ink on the bevel came off at the edge.

If it was honed with tape, you will just remove ink at the back of the bevel, not at the edge.

As far as tape no tape, tape the spine to protect it while learning to hone. Once you have mastered honing, (consistently getting smoking edges), then decide if you want to tape or not.

No downside to using tape, your razor will not “stop” shaving and the sun will come up in the morning, actually the sun will still come up if you don't tape.

If you tape, Kapton over electrical is the way to go. Any electrical tape works.

 

[Steve56]

We’re wound around the axle again so to say. Here are some non-scientific ‘facts’:

- A range of angles is acceptable for most razors and the acceptable range depends on the steel type, hardening, tempering. and grinding, IOW, the specific razor. As long as you are within this range for your specific razor, tape or no tape is pretty much irrelevant from a performance standpoint. I like 17-18 degrees on most modern razors. And we haven’t even considered your beard and skin which can make a difference in what angles you prefer.

When to use tape:

- when you’re learning to hone. You will wear the spine more than necessary
- when you need to steepen the angle. Some razors won’t hold a high grit edge at their ‘native’ angle
- when you have a historic razor, or decorated spine that needs to be preserved
- when you hone a valuable NOS or mint razor that you might sell
- when you have a guilloche (carved) spine that scratches your strop (I’ve never had one of these)
- when you hone for someone else. If you disfigure their grandfather’s razor, they will not be happy.
- when you hone a frameback, the frames are not usually hardened
- when you hone a traditional kamisori, the soft iron on the omote needs to be protected. Trust me, lol.

When not to use tape:

- when you are fully proficient at honing all sorts of razor defects, warps, bends, smiles, frowns, etc and are honing your own razor, are happy with the angle, and want to maintain it that way over years
- you know how to torque to keep wear off the spine
- when you don’t care about the appearance/value of the razor
- when you just don’t like the idea of taping the spine