That is silly.
Tallow...why not?
- Thread starter Thelonius1
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That is silly.
Ok, we've gone back and forth on the Animal Rights issue several times now.
No harm no foul, but lets keep on topic here.
No harm no foul, but lets keep on topic here.
- Thread starter
- #43
Agreed. My apologies gentlemen, the thread was not intended to spur the animal rights/vegan debate, but more a query into the use of ALL parts of the aforementioned animal(s). To the best of my knowledge, slaughtered livestock has a myriad of uses, from science to cosmetics, from shoes to home and car construction. Without debating the appropriateness of such uses, I found it curious that tallow, or the literal fat of the harvested animal, raised such furor that wet-shaving manufacturers have removed it from their products. Carry on.
Without comment/judgment/political opinion, I think it is a fact that the wave of the future is for corporations to be environmentally responsible, which include no animal testing, no tallow, and using recycled materials whenever possible. I was reading a story in Outside Magazine that says that companies that make "regular" products and "green" products sell many more units of the "green" products. One of the interesting stories was about a company that offers $100,000 (or some other huge amount) to the grower that produces the finest wool. Happy sheep produce thinner wool.
Love it or hate it, it is the waive of the future. If tallow based products are important, I would stock up.
Oh, and another thought is maybe it's not Trumper, Pens, or any other seller, by Creighton who decided to get rid of tallow?
You do understand that the fat is saponified, right? Saponification changes it from "fat" to "soap." So what we're slathering on our bodies is not fat, but soap.
We want to slather ourselves with soap for various reasons; to cleanse our bodies or, for example, to provide a slick, protective layer of lather so we can shave smoothly and painlessly. Yes, both of these activities can be carried out with soaps of different origin. Some people think that SOAP made with the inclusion of some saponified animal fats lathers better than other soap.
The palm oil that is substituted for tallow in the saponification process is often obtained from rain forests that provide shelter and food for a wide variety of animals. I think it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that even soaps made from purely vegetable sources involve some form of animal cruelty.
Well, tallow costs on average $10 less per 50 lbs than Palm for me, so I do not think costs has anything to do with it. I think companies are taking out tallow to broaden their marketing reach.
When I first started making soap years ago, I learned using just vegetable oils. Over the years I started playing with Lard and Tallow. I love soaps made with animal fat, but I have never actually tried to sell any. I just felt like people would be offended by it. Now it seems that there is a high demand for it.
When I first started making soap years ago, I learned using just vegetable oils. Over the years I started playing with Lard and Tallow. I love soaps made with animal fat, but I have never actually tried to sell any. I just felt like people would be offended by it. Now it seems that there is a high demand for it.
It's seems you've developed a bit of a penchant in calling people's comments "silly" within this thread, which is little more than name calling. If you disagree with an expressed opinion, I'm sure you can do so without resorting to deprecatory statements.
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#1 is weird for me because the company I get my tallow from gets it from Canada.
#2 Palm is more expensive than tallow (at least it is for me and I buy in bulk.) Rapeseed oil commonly known as Canola Oil. Definitely not a substitute for tallow or lard. So you are correct, the next best thing is Palm.
#3 Not sure how tallow would be hidden in stearic acid since stearic acid is a stand alone ingredient. If companies are hiding their animal ingredients then that is dishonest.
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People eating meat and having the desire to do so is never going to go away. I would much rather find uses for all parts of the animal rather than throwing materials from the animal away.
And the tallow is saponified, which means it have been turned from a fat to a salt which we know as soap. So no one is slathering fat on themselves.
Let me ask you this. What is your favorite bar soap to use on your body?
Butter is an animal fat that is consumed rather than applied topically. It was also once used as a folk remedy for burns. It's not all that odd or strange to use animal fats in different fashions. As other have said, though, the tallow has undergone saponification and is chemically different.
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The main alternative to tallow is palm oil, which is harvested in an incredibly destructive way. Palm oil cultivation is done on the equivalent of slash-and-burn factory farms in Indonesia and Malaysia, leading to massive species loss, greenhouse gas emission and habitat destruction.
Basically, both choices have positive and negative environmental aspects. Personally, I've done a bit of research and decided that although on the surface tallow use might seem irresponsible, in the grand scheme the alternatives are no better so I use it with a clean conscience.
Basically, both choices have positive and negative environmental aspects. Personally, I've done a bit of research and decided that although on the surface tallow use might seem irresponsible, in the grand scheme the alternatives are no better so I use it with a clean conscience.
The Mod said to stick to the topic, so I won't respond here. I'm willing to drop it, but if you want to PM me, I will comment without resorting to deprecatory statements.
That's quite fair. I appreciate it's difficult at times to infer the intent of a post and it's clear you are conversant and dedicated to your viewpoint, which I applaud. I'm steadfast about my values as well. I too would welcome any feedback via a PM if that is your preference and will do my best to be flexible.
I just have to say that the animal rights/political correctness arguement is part and parcel of the whole reason behind "tallow...why not?".
Penhaligon's has said they did it for marketing reasons, etc:
Thus it is a point of contention. People who have a love and concern for percieved* animal rights on the one side, and the people who have a love and concern for the highest quality shave soap on the other. There is bound to be disagreement over this.
*(I say percieved in light of the fact that I doubt there is a livestock out there that is harvested purely for it's tallow content, and thus tallow is not the main culprit driving any possible animal rights issue in my mind)
Penhaligon's has said they did it for marketing reasons, etc:
Thus it is a point of contention. People who have a love and concern for percieved* animal rights on the one side, and the people who have a love and concern for the highest quality shave soap on the other. There is bound to be disagreement over this.
*(I say percieved in light of the fact that I doubt there is a livestock out there that is harvested purely for it's tallow content, and thus tallow is not the main culprit driving any possible animal rights issue in my mind)
It's quite possible they are getting it from the company I was referring to. They seemed like a larger operation and more geared to B2B (business-to-business).
Yes, stearic acid is a standalone ingredient but it is one derived from oils and/or fats. It can equally be derived from palm oil or beef fat (suet/tallow). And the manufacturers of the raw ingredient are not required to disclose the ratio. Therefore, since fat is not perceived as a popular ingredient right now, I think more of it gets made into stearic acid than we realize. Soap manufacturers are not being dishonest, they just don't know...
And I'll go on record here saying that I like to smear animal fat on my face because I myself am an animal!
- Thread starter
- #57
As far as animal rights are concerned, I consider myself far more enlightened than those who rail against the "speciesists" who unjustly discriminate against members of other species. I regard these would-be arbiters of taxonomic hierarchy as mere "kingdomists" who refuse to afford the plant kingdom its due, all the while cruelly chomping away at their salads or eating fruits that are still alive.
And don't get me started on those lousy "domainists".
And don't get me started on those lousy "domainists".
As far as animal rights are concerned, I consider myself far more enlightened than those who rail against the "speciesists" who unjustly discriminate against members of other species. I regard these would-be arbiters of taxonomic hierarchy as mere "kingdomists" who refuse to afford the plant kingdom their due, while cruelly chomping away at their salads or eating fruits that are still alive.
And don't get me started on those lousy "domainists".
I agree. I for one cannot condone the senseless slaughter of innocent plants, literally mowed down in their prime to satisfy the apparently insatiable demand for non-tallow shaving soap.
(Do I really need to put a smilie here?)
It's palm rather than glycerin.
- Vegetable bases make for better marketing than animalistic bases. (That is, if we ignore deforestation in the tropics to make room for the palms.)
- Logistics, (EU, FDA) regulations, and quality control can decide in favour of one base or the other. Remember, we're not talking about dozens of pucks of soap made by that cute little outfit somewhere in the backend of nowhere. We want thousands, if not tens of thousands, all with the same properties. Now and in a year's time.
- There is no law stating that all shaving soaps and creams should contain tallow. Variety is the spice of life.
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