Picking out my First Stones!!

[mrmaroon]

Just curious: what will the Norton 4/8 give you that the coti won't?

This list is based on MY experiences, everyones will differ. Please take it for what it's worth! Im sure you could switch everything on these lists and pick out other stuff, but this I think is a good general comparison for you.

The Norton combo is one of the most popular hones.
Advantages
Jack of all - You can tackle any razor with the 4/8k. You might spend time on the 4k to get out chips though.
Feedback - The 4k offers great feedback. The 8k takes a little more practice to master in this regard.
size - It is big, a coti of this size will easily be 200+.
Speed - both sides act quickly for their grit
Reliability - All Nortons are the same consistancy
Support - Most popular hone. If having problems THERE WILL BE HELP
Price - Cheap for the full set+lapper. Invest in a DMT diamond plate or sandpaper though, those lapping plates get untrued after a while. DMT plates NEVER need lapping. Why lap with something that needs to be lapped itself?

Disadvantages
Size - It is big, you wont be able to hone warped blades as effectively. I cut mine with hacksaw into a 2x8 a 1x6 and a 2x1 slurry stone
Downtime - Needs soaking
Maintenance - Needs Lapped and water on it at all times. Needs lapped more often than most artificials. The 4k dries quick so you always need to splash water on it.
Speed - These remove metal quick. Overhoning can be an issue, but I have never had this problem.

Coticule - A top choice for finishing hones
Advantages
Jack of all trades- Can go from around 1k to 8-10kish with slurry.
Prep time- splash water and you are good to go!
Maintenance - Needs lapping rarely. I have lapped mine once every 40 honings, but I use slurry often. Lap more often if using slurry.
Feedback- Coticules have amazing feedback.
Value - Coticules hold their value better than a NORTON would.
Looks/Variety - No two coticules are the same.
Support - Coticule.be is dedicated to coticules.
Size - available in any size/shape.
Overhoning -Overhoning is nigh impossible with a coticule.

Disadvantages
Variety - No two coticules are the same. If you are having problems, others can only give you ballpark directions, no specifics, especially with lap counts.
Learning curve -These take a while to learn to use. Especially if using it as a full range hone. No two coticules behave the same so you may need to dilute slow or more quickly.
Price - These are more costly than most hones for their size.
Speed - When used as a finishing hone is much slower than the 8k norton. Depending on specimin between 10-100 laps for finishing. With slurry can be slower or faster than 4k norton.


My advice would be get the 220/1k 4k/8k Norton set first. You can tackle any razor with this setup and it is not much more than just the 4k/8k. If you do get the 4k/8k you will eventually wish you had a 1k. I don't own the 220, it seems way to large of grit for a full hollow. If I had a wedge with a chip I would use that maybe. Lynn abrams pyramid scheme is great for beginners who don't know how many laps to do. I do not use this method often. Only if I have a razor that won't get sharp and need a benchmark. If it gets sharp with the pyramid I then switch to my method.

Once you learn the basics with this setup buy a coticule. A coticule took me about 50 times longer to get succesful results. I still haven't mastered the two I own. I do like the coticule edge more than any other (escher/diamond/crox). The website coticule.be has a wealth of info on these. These hones have so much variety in honing ability its not even funny! Some cut super fast with water, and slow with slurry, or vice versa. some dull more with slurry than others. Feedback is different on all of them. Even the colors are different. Don't think you need a select or kosher, this is just astheitics and doesn't affect honing ability. I like one with a little character anyway!

I had a coti first and bought a NORTON second. The NORTON I bought from a barber that learned to use his coticule instead and didn't need anymore. I then sold my first coti and bought another later. When I master the coti I will sell the norton 4k/8k. The 1k is the most handy I think.

Hope this helps you on your quest, if you need any specifics about how they operate ask anyone here or I can help.

Good luck and welcome to a new obsession!
Mrmaroon

 

[michiganlover]

Anyone have any thoughts on this three piece set sold through "Open_Razor" on Ebay??

It has the Chinese 12k, a 5K grit, and a 8K grit stone. The price is extremely attractive at roughly $55 shipped. Also since it's Ebay, I can pay out of my Paypal account.

http://cgi.ebay.com/3-Piece-Sharpening-Set-/360226728785?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_212&hash=item53df2fab51

 

[SliceOfLife]

DMT XC = $40
DMT E = $50
DMT EE = $61


Norton set ~$115

So it's basically even cost if you don't need the 220grit. If you do, the Norton set is $30-40 cheaper.

I've used his 5k stone. It's a Taidea. It works and is wickedly fast. But it's very thirsty and chips relatively easily (It's a $10 stone after all, what do you expect). If you did get it, you'd want a beveler in the 1000-1500 range.

 

[DavyRay]

The price is good. I have been following this thread as I need to hone a couple of straights and also have some razors which have been neglected. I am considering this same set. Good thing he has more than one.

 

[gary haywood]

I have used coticules and my first ever hone was the norton combo. as it was the in thing. i watched lynns dvd he used the combo followed with coticule with a cloudy slurry.
It was only when i got my first coticule that vi fell for the coticule. i sold my combo n to mamroon above as he has just stated that was me. I have since got hold of another new combo that i am selling. I have had good results with norton don't get me wrong. But i have had to tinker around with them. Now with coticule i always get shave ready smooth razor shaving razor. I can do this in less time than a norton combo. The other night i honed to razors one coticule only ,tell a lye i set bevel on both with 1k naniwa. After that i went to norton with one and coticule the other. I tested both razors the coticule honed razor was perfect, the norton combo finished on coti was not as good and quite a long way of. I went back to norton and i still was'nt happy. i hit the coticule for 10 minutes and the razor was perfect. I used dilucot method and it was sorted. For me i always found the coticule to be more consistant and easier to hone with with and nicer to hone with. That's my opinion . . Coticule all the way for me

 

[michiganlover]

The price is good. I have been following this thread as I need to hone a couple of straights and also have some razors which have been neglected. I am considering this same set. Good thing he has more than one.

Yep. He now has one less set than before.

I am going to give this set a try.

I presently only have 3 razors:

5/8 Le Grelot french point
5/8 Boker King Cutter round point.
4/8 Shumate Tung Steel.

The Le Grelot is currently shave ready. The Boker is off getting re-honed (I think I rolled it's edge).

The Shumate was a $10 antique store special, that I bought just to test honing on. The edge is undamaged, and not at all rusty, although it is far from sharp.

I will thoroughly practice on the Shumate, before I ever touch the hones to my super nice razors.

I am sure I might eventually buy the Norton hones (or something else), but for now I just want to experiment a little bit.

 

[danjared]

The Shumate was a $10 antique store special, that I bought just to test honing on. The edge is undamaged, and not at all rusty, although it is far from sharp.

I will thoroughly practice on the Shumate, before I ever touch the hones to my super nice razors.

Nooooo, be nice to the Shumate.

You say it's not at all rusty? Assuming it's not horribly worn, that's sounds like it's still a pretty nice razor. Shumates are nice American razors. If you want a beater, send me pics, and I'll trade you a Gold Dollar and a nice extra.

 

[ssultan]

Naniwa 12K + DMT 8EEE + Pasted Strop...all that I've been using...in fact most of the time it's just the Naniwa and the pasted strop that get a work-out, the DMT 8EEE just sits there...I also have the courser DMT D8C (I believe) for flattening the Naniwa...as well as a couple of miscellaneous water stones in lower grits for bevel setting but find myself using them on rare occasions. The same goes for the 4-sided paddle strop, thought I'd use it more but don't. Going from the Naniwa to the pasted strop to shaving works just fine for me.

But then as with all things shaving, there are a dozen ways to get there...isn't that what makes it fun

 

[rickboone1]

Nortons are good. There's TONS of information on them and people can walk you through how to use them in the dark.

Are they needed? Mmm....No. I'm doing well on just a coticule. Sure, it takes longer to set a bevel..if you say so..(that's what I have read). I know no difference.

I have a set of Nortons on loan to me now. They're still in the box. The Nortons need regular lappings (so you do need that stone). They're kind of a PITA, if you ask me. Have to let them soak for 20 minutes, blah blah.

Do they work? Yes. But, most people I know that have done what you're doing have packed away the Nortons and gone straight coticule. Perhaps coincidence. I dunno.

Now, I will tell you the Naniwas I have heard nothing but high praise for. surely someone hates them, but from what I have read and people I've talked to, Naniwas over the Nortons. To me they are not much more in price either.

There's not a right answer. There are plenty that will tell you the shave off the 8 K Norton is great. Others say you need that finisher....coticule or C12K.

But, if you have the coticule, I'd not get the C12K. Way too slow and does nothing more that your coticule already does.

If it were me, which it is not, I would sit and get myself 1 or 2 razors to shave ready on my coticule before I bought anything else. Not trying to persuade you one way or the other. Perhaps it's the feedback or the....heck I don't know. I think it's a form of mastery almost. You learn to use one before you get another type deal.

Like I said, I have the Norton set right here. Haven't taken them out the box. I'm not where I want to be on the coticule yet. When I get there, then I may play around with the others. Slower? Sure. Better? Doubt it.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I don't know about 8k shaves being great. I think it's kind of a broken telephone (that game kids play) issue. Someone says you should learn to get shave ready on 8k before wasting time on a high grit stone with a razor that isn't sharp. It gets repeated a few times and turns into saying that 8k is a decent shaving edge. Repeated a few more times and it becomes 8k shaves are great. Somewhere in there some people started talking about 8k finishes followed by Pastes, which is a whole other issue, but some people tend to take them together, which really is misleading. I would never say that 8k finishes are a great shave. That's just asking for people to give up on straight shaving.

I shaved off 8k (4k king) when I started out. Now I'm used to thuringian finishes. Using an 8k finished razor leaves my neck looking like I took a microplane (Nutmeg grater) to it because I HAVE to remove skin to get BBS with an 8k finished razor.

It's hard to make a judgment on learning on a coticule because I didn't do it. But I do think that on an Investment vs Performance ratio, Coticules absolutely can not be beat. And frankly, learning the entire process of Unicot method is easier than getting a good edge off a 8k waterstone to 12k China in my experience. The coticules ability to go from ~8k with the right level of slurry to a finisher on water is incredibly useful and makes it one of the easier finishing stones I've used. I actually use it fairly readily still to go from 8k to coti finish before following with my thuringians because it saves me time and effort required for the jump from 8k to my Thuringians.

If I lost all my stones and were starting over with a limited budget, I'd get a Coticule w/ Slurry first. That's all you need. As money became available to me I'd follow with a DMT EF, Then a DMT XC, then I'd start looking for a thuri/Escher or maybe a 16k Shapton or something else along those lines.

 

[thanks]

And frankly, learning the entire process of Unicot method is easier than getting a good edge off a 8k waterstone to 12k China in my experience.

Since I'm learning my coticule, I would have to say I disagree with this statement. I get quite a smooth and sharp edge off an 8k to a C12k, and of course I'm doing 100+ laps on the C12k, but once you know that stone we're really only talking about 5 minutes of work. My first results with the unicot on a NOS Helje were okay, but not as smooth or sharp as I wanted, so I went to go do a few laps on the coti with water, and the edge got much worse! The stone seems to have a steep learning curve, but maybe that's just me. The coti's are also slow finishers, seems to take around 50 laps with water at least on most razors. Then again, all coti's are a little different.

 

[gary haywood]

I would say its trial and error with any stone you use. You have to choose what hone you have a good feeling for. stick with with it and make it work. just kkeep working with it and you will see results . You will still have bad days but more good days with coticule in my case.( 8 out of 10 shave exallant for me depending on razor quality they will vary

 

[Woodash]

This list is based on MY experiences, everyones will differ. Please take it for what it's worth! Im sure you could switch everything on these lists and pick out other stuff, but this I think is a good general comparison for you....
.....
Good luck and welcome to a new obsession!
Mrmaroon

First, I wanted to say thanks to Mrmaroon for taking the time to post some well thought out information.

... And frankly, learning the entire process of Unicot method is easier than getting a good edge off a 8k waterstone to 12k China in my experience. The coticules ability to go from ~8k with the right level of slurry to a finisher on water is incredibly useful and makes it one of the easier finishing stones I've used.

Since I'm learning my coticule, I would have to say I disagree with this statement.
...Then again, all coti's are a little different.

I tend to agree with thanks. Not only is each one different, but there is such a dynamic range of subtlety and behavior with these things under different uses (heavy slurry, diluted slurries, water, etc.) - it's amazing. Compared to some fixed 4K or 8K stone, the coticle seems like much more of a moving target. You have to decipher the code of your own stone to get the best out of it. I've had some good success with mine recently, but I'm definately still translating.

 

[gaj90027]

First, I wanted to say thanks to Mrmaroon for taking the time to post some well thought out information.




I tend to agree with thanks. Not only is each one different, but there is such a dynamic range of subtlety and behavior with these things under different uses (heavy slurry, diluted slurries, water, etc.) - it's amazing. Compared to some fixed 4K or 8K stone, the coticle seems like much more of a moving target. You have to decipher the code of your own stone to get the best out of it. I've had some good success with mine recently, but I'm definately still translating.

+1 this is why I decided that the norton would be easiest for me. I want to learn that I'm capable of honing a razor using as straightforward a method as possible. Once I know I can handle the basics with a pyramid method I will be more than happy to experiment with a coti.

 

[Bart]

If you were learning how to ride a bike, to you really think it matters much what brand of bike you have? Or that it is a mountain bike, city bike, or race bike?

All setups mentioned in this thread work, IF the owner learns to do a stable honing stroke. Some people almost adopt that instantly, others (like myself) struggle with that for weeks or even months. That is, imho, the big variable factor in sharpening razors.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[gaj90027]

If you were learning how to ride a bike, to you really think it matters much what brand of bike you have? Or that it is a mountain bike, city bike, or race bike?

All setups mentioned in this thread work, IF the owner learns to do a stable honing stroke. Some people almost adopt that instantly, others (like myself) struggle with that for weeks or even months. That is, imho, the big variable factor in sharpening razors.

Kind regards,
Bart.

Thanks for your input Bart - in all sincerity any thread you post in is worth reading

Having never touched a razor to a hone I am ill equiped to argue one honing method over the other. My reasoning for choosing a norton setup first is simply based on my gut feeling that I would have an easier time learning the pyramid method on a norton than the dilucot or unicot method on a coticule.

The bike analogy is a good one as I can use it to help explain my reasoning a little better as well.

In my mind the norton is like a normal bicycle with training wheels even. All I really need to master is the stroke and remember the progression. Not saying it's going to be easy but it's not a lot of things going on all at once either.

In my mind the coticule is like a unicycle. I need to learn the specific characteristics and personality of the coticule itself, as well as pay attention to the slurry being too thin, too thick, too milky, misty, dry etc. Not saying this is impossible for a beginner to learn but it sounds to me like a lot of extra variables that I personally wouldn't want to deal with on my first attempt at honing.

 

[Bart]

Thanks for your input Bart - in all sincerity any thread you post in is worth reading

Having never touched a razor to a hone I am ill equiped to argue one honing method over the other. My reasoning for choosing a norton setup first is simply based on my gut feeling that I would have an easier time learning the pyramid method on a norton than the dilucot or unicot method on a coticule.

Thank you for the kind words.

It's a fine choice you've made. It'll serve you well. People often expect me, knowing a few things about Coticules, to try talking everyone into using that stone. Well, I'm not. It just happens to be what I know best.

The bike analogy is a good one as I can use it to help explain my reasoning a little better as well.

In my mind the norton is like a normal bicycle with training wheels even. All I really need to master is the stroke and remember the progression. Not saying it's going to be easy but it's not a lot of things going on all at once either.

In my mind the coticule is like a unicycle. I need to learn the specific characteristics and personality of the coticule itself, as well as pay attention to the slurry being too thin, too thick, too milky, misty, dry etc. Not saying this is impossible for a beginner to learn but it sounds to me like a lot of extra variables that I personally wouldn't want to deal with on my first attempt at honing.

You're right. I sometimes use another comparison. One that compares honing to shaving. Naniwa's are like the Gillette Fusion: very easy results, well researched and engineered by the manufacturer, very marketable. The Norton 4K/8K is like the MachIII: widely used, works very well, reasonably priced, once the top of the marketing line, now a bit out of the spotlights. Coticules are like straight razors: very traditional, been longer around than anyone knows, takes additional skills to work well.
I could probably fit the "DE's of hones" in that comparison as well.

Few people dive straight into straights (no pun intended), although our grandfathers didn't have that choice. Most guys now take the wise action to tackle wet shaving first, or use a DE for a while, before submerging themselves in the world of straights. Many even never take the step to using a straight razor at all. Straight razors are not to be considered as some obligated end station for the wet-shaver, and neither am I implying that Coticules should be considered the end station for every guy that wants to hone razors.

But just like shaving with a straight razor in some cases has an intimidating effect on a guy that doesn't use it, Coticules seem to have that same effect on guys that get perfect results differently.

Enjoy the learning curve!
Bart.