Optimum Lather Table with Soap/Cream and Water Masses

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

You're welcome! As it turned out, too little water was my chief problem when I started out, and I was baffled for a long time. I finally figured it out after a lot of trial and error.

If I had to offer one piece of advice to newcomers, I'd advise that they experiment a lot with water in their lathers through a lot of trial and error. Slickness is paramount, and having a feel for how much water to add to each soap/cream only happens when playing around with the water, not just stopping when it seems that the lather is good or because we don't know any better. That was my problem.

 

[Glaze3]

Mine would be to stop the useless step of bowl lathering and just load and take the brush to your face.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Mine would be to stop the useless step of bowl lathering and just load and take the brush to your face.

I've face lathered some, but it didn't take. Your advice is good, though. Now that I'm making exact lathers in finding optimums, I don't know when I'd get to face lathering.

 

[Bunsburger]

Mine would be to stop the useless step of bowl lathering and just load and take the brush to your face.

Never!

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

2nd Addition: The Sudsy Soapery Sandalwood & Myrrh Shave Soap

(Picture shows 5.5 oz. jar of soap, almost used up)

Purchase Date: November 9, 2016

Ingredients: Saponified Stearic Acid, Coconut Oil, Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, Castor Oil, Ricinus Communis (Castor) Seed Oil, Cocoa Butter, Theobroma Cocoa (Cocoa) Seed Butter, Kokum Butter, Garcinia Indica Seed Butter, Shea Butter, Butyrospermum Parkii, Lanolin Anhydrous, USP. with Clay, Kaolin [Rhassoul Clay, according to the website], Glycerin vegetable, USP, Sodium Lactate, Fragrance*, Bentonite Clay. * All Natural Essential Oil Blend

Container: The amber plastic container has an outside diameter of 3.69 in., as measured with my digital caliper, and the black screw-on cap has a similar diameter. The inside diameter near the top of the jar is 3.26 in. The total height of the closed jar is about 1.59 in. The container is just big enough for the amount of soap that it comes with. My only complaint with the container is that the internal radius increases kind of sharply by about 5/32 in. through the transition from the top of the jar down towards the main lower region. Soap is, therefore, not all easily accessible to the brush.

Color: Shiny, speckled tan or light brown

Scent: The scent is "subtle in nature", as described by the manufacturer, and my impression is that the natural sandalwood and myrrh scent is fine and light to the point that this soap could be an acceptable alternative for those wanting unscented soap

Hardness: Based on my limited experience, I'd say that this soap is softer than most

Exact Lather Results: Twenty-five (25) daily shaves were conducted from June 28, 2017, to July 22, 2017, with total mass ranging from 8.0 g to 10.4 g and water-to-soap ratio ranging from 5 to 11. With increasing water-to-soap ratio from 5 to 11, slickness increased from "pretty good" to "good to very good", cushion decreased from "good or very good" to "not much", and post-shave decreased from "kind of dry" to "dry". The optimal total mass was found to be around 9.5 g to 10.4 g, and optimization narrowed down to deciding between water-to-soap ratios of about 9.5 and 10, with the former being chosen since the latter seemed to produce a lather that just seemed to be a little more airy with similar performance.

Optimum Lather Table

Performance Ranking	Soap/Cream	Soap/Cream Mass (g)	Water Mass (g)	Total Mass (g)	Water-to-Soap/Cream Ratio
1	Stirling Soap Co. Naked & Smooth Shave Soap	1.2	10.8	12.0	9.00
2	The Sudsy Soapery Sandalwood & Myrrh Shave Soap	0.9	8.6	9.5	9.56

General Notes:

• Soap/cream and moderately hard water masses were directly measured in a smooth lathering bowl, using a 0.1 g resolution scale, and lather was built using a dry synthetic brush, so as to make exact lather as documented on August 27, 2017
• Based on slower three-pass shaves with blade buffing using a smooth chrome-plated DE safety razor and agreeable blades and blade exposures, water-to-soap/cream ratio was optimized to the nearest 0.5 value while total mass was simultaneously optimized as precisely as could be accomplished by varying soap/cream and water masses from day to day. Lather from inside the brush was used as much as possible in order to effectively eliminate the influence of the brush on total mass.
• Rankings were aided by revisiting previously determined optimums and comparing optimum lathers in sequential shaves
• The table is sortable such that clicking on a column heading sorts the rows according to that column's data, and clicking on the column heading again reverses the sorting order

Ranking Notes:

1. Stirling Soap Co. Naked & Smooth Shave Soap: Lather takes time to build up, developing into a lighter lather with a smooth consistency and a nice sheen. Slickness is mostly very good, but there is typically some friction near the end of passes. Cushion is okay, but lather lightness prevents cushion from being good. Post-shave is pretty good, but on the dry side.
2. The Sudsy Soapery Sandalwood & Myrrh Shave Soap: Lather is neither like yogurt nor creamy, but there are few large bubbles. Slickness is good to very good. Cushion is fine. Post-shave is relatively dry.

 

[cryhavoc]

I'm impressed that you are taking this much time and effort to find an optimum lather. I couldn't do it, I face lather and just add water as needed. You don't happen to be an engineer by any chance?

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I'm impressed that you are taking this much time and effort to find an optimum lather. I couldn't do it, I face lather and just add water as needed. You don't happen to be an engineer by any chance?

Yes, or at least I used to be. I even took a course in optimization many years ago, so it's in my blood. There is time and effort involved here, but it's not as bad as it seems. The time it takes to make lather is more than normal, but the time difference is only a few minutes at most. After the shave, it takes a few minutes to record the results and set up the next day's shave. Posting an update or review here takes a chunk of time, but that's normal.

I hope that you keep checking out this thread. Since you are in the Order of the Fat, you might have something to say about my post on MWF, when I eventually get to it. At this point, I haven't optimized it because I got quickly thrown off when I tried to start the process weeks ago. I already have it in mind how to handle it the next time I try optimizing it. I should be able to produce some results other than "?".

 

[Grundi]

Excellent job, @ShavingByTheNumbers!!

Repeatable results (good or bad) are achieved by using a consistent process!! I use the same bowl lathering technique with each of the soaps that I use. I haven't written anything down, but my approach is the same, day in and day out, and the results are fairly consistent. I'm participating in the Stone Cottage Shaving Cream passaround and using the same technique I use with soap, and the SC creams are lathering really well. (I also benefit from having soft tap water).

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Excellent job, @ShavingByTheNumbers!!

Repeatable results (good or bad) are achieved by using a consistent process!! I use the same bowl lathering technique with each of the soaps that I use. I haven't written anything down, but my approach is the same, day in and day out, and the results are fairly consistent. I'm participating in the Stone Cottage Shaving Cream passaround and using the same technique I use with soap, and the SC creams are lathering really well. (I also benefit from having soft tap water).

Thanks! You are absolutely right about repeatable results. Measuring mass isn't the only way to do that, but measuring mass allows for more consistency. That's what I've experienced, anyway. I never made such consistent lathers as I'm doing now. I'd love for someone to eventually take my measurements and reproduce lathers for himself and provide feedback, or better yet, do his own optimizations and rankings so that we'd have two or more sets of data. That would be something.

I've never DE shaved with soft water. It would be interesting to compare results to those with moderately hard water. Also, I haven't shaved with a traditional shaving cream yet, but this table is waiting for it. With the Stone Cottage Shaving Cream or another cream, you end up using less water than with soap, right? Does your bowl lathering technique involve volume measurements of added water with a small spoon? If you think that writing about your technique can help others, then please put something together. Something new or different or just documented well for the sake of newbies deserves its own thread.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

3rd Addition: Barrister & Mann (B&M) Latha Unscented Shaving Soap

(Almost all of the 4 oz. of soap was used by the time that the above picture was taken)

Purchase Date: November 26, 2016

Ingredients: Aqua, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Potassium Tallowate, Sodium Tallowate, Glycerin, Potassium Cocoate, Sodium Cocoate, Argania spinosa (Argan) Oil, Butyrospermum parkii (Shea) Butter, Sodium Citrate, Sodium Lactate, Tocopherol Acetate

Container: The jar and its cap are made of clear plastic. The jar has an outside diameter of about 3.37 in. at the top and about 3.28 in. at the bottom, and the screw-on cap has a larger diameter of about 3.60 in., as measured with my digital caliper. The interior of the jar is straight-walled with a diameter of about 3.23 in. at the top, decreasing toward the bottom of the jar. The jar is initially hot-filled with 4 oz. of the soap, leaving roughly 3/8 in. of space at the top. The cap has a slick water-resistant circular label on top.

Color: Slightly off-white

Scent: Naturally light scent of unscented soap

Hardness: Based on my limited experience, this soap is very soft. This soap is also sticky and actually has a granular quality to it, which is unusual.

Exact Lather Results: Fifteen (15) daily shaves were conducted from August 13, 2017, to August 27, 2017, with total mass ranging from 9.0 g to 11.9 g and water-to-soap ratio ranging from 6 to 9. With increasing water-to-soap ratio from 6 to 9, slickness increased from "mostly not good" and "quite bad at times" to "mostly very good" with a little friction near the end of the second and third passes, cushion decreased from "okay" to "low" with visibly airy lather that seemingly collapsed somewhat upon application, and post-shave decreased from "pretty good" to "kind of dry" with overall irritation noticed for all tested water-to-soap ratios. 9.9 g of lather was found to be good, but possibly a little too much, while 9.0 g and 9.3 g were found to be good amounts, so the optimal total mass was found to be around 9.0 g. Optimization narrowed down to deciding between water-to-soap ratios of about 7.5 and 8, which yielded very similar performances. The water-to-soap ratio of 8 was chosen for seemingly producing slightly more slickness, but with a little less cushion.

Ranking Results: In next-day testing, the optimum lather for The Sudsy Soapery Sandalwood & Myrrh was confirmed as better than the optimum lather for B&M Latha, as one would expect based on overall notes about slickness, cushion, and post-shave. The Sudsy Soapery Sandalwood & Myrrh is ranked higher for having less friction near the end of passes and for seeming a little less dry without the overall irritation experienced with B&M Latha.

Takeaway: B&M Latha shaving soap is very sensitive to the amount of added water, especially with respect to slickness. The optimum lather does not provide much cushion, but more importantly, overall irritation was experienced during the post-shave, which may or may not happen for other individuals.

Questions? Comments? As usual, feedback is welcome!

Optimum Lather Table

Performance Ranking	Soap/Cream	Soap/Cream Mass (g)	Water Mass (g)	Total Mass (g)	Water-to-Soap/Cream Ratio
1	Stirling Soap Co. Naked & Smooth Shave Soap	1.2	10.8	12.0	9.00
2	The Sudsy Soapery Sandalwood & Myrrh Shave Soap	0.9	8.6	9.5	9.56
3	Barrister & Mann Latha Unscented Shaving Soap	1.0	8.0	9.0	8.00

General Notes:

• Soap/cream and moderately hard water masses were directly measured in a smooth lathering bowl, using a 0.1 g resolution scale, and lather was built using a dry synthetic brush, so as to make exact lather as documented on August 27, 2017
• Based on slower three-pass shaves with blade buffing using a smooth chrome-plated DE safety razor and agreeable blades and blade exposures, water-to-soap/cream ratio was optimized to the nearest 0.5 value while total mass was simultaneously optimized as precisely as could be accomplished by varying soap/cream and water masses from day to day. Lather from inside the brush was used as much as possible in order to effectively eliminate the influence of the brush on total mass.
• Rankings were aided by revisiting previously determined optimums and comparing optimum lathers in sequential shaves
• The table is sortable such that clicking on a column heading sorts the rows according to that column's data, and clicking on the column heading again reverses the sorting order

Ranking Notes:

1. Stirling Soap Co. Naked & Smooth Shave Soap: Lather takes time to build up, developing into a lighter lather with a smooth consistency and a nice sheen. Slickness is mostly very good, but there is typically some friction near the end of passes. Cushion is okay, but lather lightness prevents cushion from being good. Post-shave is pretty good, but on the dry side.
2. The Sudsy Soapery Sandalwood & Myrrh Shave Soap: Lather is neither like yogurt nor creamy, but there are few large bubbles. Slickness is good to very good. Cushion is fine. Post-shave is relatively dry.
3. Barrister & Mann Latha Unscented Shaving Soap: Lather is neither like yogurt nor creamy, but lather is uniform with respect to very small air cells. Lather does not have much adhesion to skin during application. Sheen is nice, but not brilliant. Slickness is mostly good with some very good moments, but there is some friction near the end of passes. Cushion is not much, although it is fine. Post-shave is kind of dry with some overall irritation.

 

[Avvatar]

I can't quite seem to put down my thoughts right now (coffee related stupor), but your scientific approach to shaving is amazing! I am envious of your perseverance!

Between soaps and blades, you'll have your scientifically accurate ultimate shave planned out rather quickly. Discounting the "YMMV" factors, of course. (Brush, razor, pre-/post- shave, etc...)

Out of curiosity, are you recording the time or number of "strokes" needed to achieve the lather?

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

I can't quite seem to put down my thoughts right now (coffee related stupor), but your scientific approach to shaving is amazing! I am envious of your perseverance!

Between soaps and blades, you'll have your scientifically accurate ultimate shave planned out rather quickly. Discounting the "YMMV" factors, of course. (Brush, razor, pre-/post- shave, etc...)

Out of curiosity, are you recording the time or number of "strokes" needed to achieve the lather?

I don't record the time or "strokes" for building lather, but I try to record things that stick out at me when building lather. Recording time isn't a bad idea. Thanks for your thought. It would only involve starting and stopping the timer and recording the result. If a lather really does take longer to build, then that should be reflected by the timer. I go beyond the time it takes to build lather in order to ensure that I've reached equilibrium, as it seems to me, but I do that in a similar way for all soaps. I don't want lather-building time in my optimum lather table, and you might already agree with me on that. Lather-building time would be used then for verification of what I perceive as shorter or longer time for building lather, something that is notable if it's significant. What do you think, @Avvatar?

As far as my "scientifically accurate ultimate shave" goes, I'm weeding out soaps, at least. I have a Word file for making notes about soaps and other shaving products, and my notes on soaps was getting longer without much clarity. It was getting frustrating. This thread is replacing those notes, with the exception of URLs and purchase information that may not be allowed here by forum rules, and doing so in a much better way.

 

[Avvatar]

I go beyond the time it takes to build lather in order to ensure that I've reached equilibrium, as it seems to me, but I do that in a similar way for all soaps. I don't want lather-building time in my optimum lather table, and you might already agree with me on that. Lather-building time would be used then for verification of what I perceive as shorter or longer time for building lather, something that is notable if it's significant. What do you think, Avvatar?

As long as you're reaching an "equal" lather on the various soaps, time doesn't matter. It would only matter if times were significantly different. Also, pressure/mood would play a large role day to day.

Once finished with your list, it would be interesting to revisit them all using your optimal settings. THEN you could do a timer and get averages. But really, time isn't a concern. A good shave is more important than the extra time some soaps might take.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

As long as you're reaching an "equal" lather on the various soaps, time doesn't matter. It would only matter if times were significantly different. Also, pressure/mood would play a large role day to day.

Once finished with your list, it would be interesting to revisit them all using your optimal settings. THEN you could do a timer and get averages. But really, time isn't a concern. A good shave is more important than the extra time some soaps might take.

Thanks for your help! I'll record time and see where it goes. It won't make its way into the table, but it should help me quantify whether a lather takes significantly less or more time to build. Your point about revisiting optimal lathers is well put. As long as I keep track of lather-building time, I can calculate averages. An overall average of my lather-building time would be nice, too. I think that it's a few minutes, longer than most other guys take, but I'm going beyond what is necessary so as to ensure equilibrium.

 

[bahomebrew]

Great write up and experiment, @ShavingByTheNumbers! It hadn't occurred to me to take such an in depth look at lather, but I know I have been frustrated at what makes a good lather and getting consistent results. I second the notion that this is a great place to start for newbies to have a very clear idea of where to start and qualities to look for in a lather. Keep the data coming!

 

[Avvatar]

Do you have a list of soaps that you're listing? A list list? It would be fun to see if results could be copied.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Great write up and experiment, @ShavingByTheNumbers! It hadn't occurred to me to take such an in depth look at lather, but I know I have been frustrated at what makes a good lather and getting consistent results. I second the notion that this is a great place to start for newbies to have a very clear idea of where to start and qualities to look for in a lather. Keep the data coming!

Thanks, Adam! I used to be frustrated, too, about making good lather. I'm no longer frustrated about it and can make the lather that I want every time. Good soap/cream is needed to make good lather, but bad lather can be made with good soap/cream, and then the good soap/cream gets blamed. I don't trust old notes that I have on soaps that I used in the past, before applying my exact lather method and optimization process. Revisiting the notes shows that they aren't all bad, but they aren't all good, either. As the results come in, I hope that newbies can use the table. Hopefully, experienced traditional shavers will also find it valuable, especially when it comes to my ranking of popular soaps. Currently, I have Stirling at #1, but another soap could knock it down.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Do you have a list of soaps that you're listing? A list list? It would be fun to see if results could be copied.

I'm currently reevaluating Lisa's Natural Herbal Creations (LNHC) Sandalwood shaving soap, since it was the first soap that I optimized and my technique has refined since then. I also optimized L&L Grooming Marshlands using what I had left from the past, but I ran out, and since it's a very good performer, I ordered a jar of L&L Grooming Unscented for new optimization with plenty leftover for future ranking tests and good shaves. Mitchell's Wool Fat will come up in the near future, too. I have plenty of L'Occitane Cade remaining from the past for exact lathering now, so I might work on that after MWF, which I also considered in the past as one of my least liked soaps. I don't have much B&M Cheshire left, so I'll probably order a jar of it for optimization and good shaves. B&M should definitely be in my table. In the past, I've used a few Mystic Water samples and I went through a jar of Soap Commander Integrity as my first soap. I'd like to revisit them in the future with exact lathering optimization. Soaps that I haven't tried that I'd like to evaluate someday include, but are not limited to, the following: Mike's Natural Soaps, Cold River Soap Works, Mickey Lee Soapworks, Reef Point Soaps, Viking Shaving Soap, Catie's Bubbles.

What do you have in mind about comparing results?

 

[Grundi]

I've never DE shaved with soft water. It would be interesting to compare results to those with moderately hard water. Also, I haven't shaved with a traditional shaving cream yet, but this table is waiting for it. With the Stone Cottage Shaving Cream or another cream, you end up using less water than with soap, right? Does your bowl lathering technique involve volume measurements of added water with a small spoon? If you think that writing about your technique can help others, then please put something together. Something new or different or just documented well for the sake of newbies deserves its own thread.

For creams like Stone Cottage, I use the exact same lathering technique, even adding the same amount of drops of water during the lathering. SC creams are like very soft soaps; once in the mug (I scoop out a small amount, smear it on the bottom of my mug, grab my damp brush, and lather away), they lather up just like soaps. Creams like Cremo, I don't even attempt to bowl lather.

My water is municipal (city) water and is 17/ppm hardness (way, way down on the hardness scale). I suppose it might be like using distilled water. I dip my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd fingers in very shallow sink water and let the water drops drip into the mug. No measuring and about the same amount each time.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

For creams like Stone Cottage, I use the exact same lathering technique, even adding the same amount of drops of water during the lathering. SC creams are like very soft soaps; once in the mug (I scoop out a small amount, smear it on the bottom of my mug, grab my damp brush, and lather away), they lather up just like soaps. Creams like Cremo, I don't even attempt to bowl lather.

My water is municipal (city) water and is 17/ppm hardness (way, way down on the hardness scale). I suppose it might be like using distilled water. I dip my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd fingers in very shallow sink water and let the water drops drip into the mug. No measuring and about the same amount each time.

That sounds pretty consistent. Your water is very soft. I can see how SC would act like a very soft soap. I haven't used a traditional cream yet, but I imagine that bowl lathering with one would simply involve more cream and less water compared to using a soap. Have you tried that?