Oil on Coti

[Woodash]

I don't think we should speak about a blunting effect. But that does not mean that certain properties of the fluid cannot have a minimal effect on the abrasive properties of the hone.
It is a proven fact that dishwashers perform better with softened water. If it has an influence there, it is not entirely impossible that there's an influence on the performance of a hone as well. It's easy enough for Chris to find out.

Kind regards,
Bart.

Bart - Maybe I misinterpreted your comment, but in mine, I was discounting the likelihood of any blunting effect, not endorsing it as a factor in this case. Tell you the truth, at this point I choose to remain skeptical as to whether hard water has any appreciable effect on limiting blade sharpness, or whether what's happening with soaps and dishwasher detergent and such is related very closely to what might be going on with a hone. I'd guess that it might have an effect on a hone with residual oil, however. Won't be the first time I've swum (swam, swimmed...?) upstream, so I'll be happy to eat my words if that turns out I'm wrong.

 

[Bart]

Bart - Maybe I misinterpreted your comment, but in mine, I was discounting the likelihood of any blunting effect, not endorsing it as a factor in this case.

So was I.

Tell you the truth, at this point I choose to remain skeptical as to whether hard water has any appreciable effect on limiting blade sharpness, or whether what's happening with soaps and dishwasher detergent and such is related very closely to what might be going on with a hone.

I don't know if there's any relationship at all. Nor do I know if the hardness of water has any influence on honing. I don't think it's ever been tested. My own experience says that I can get excellent edges, whether I use hard water, soft phosphate-rich water, oil, lather, WD40, water with a drop of dish detergent. But that does not mean that some fluids might make it easier to reach good keenness, as my earlier little experiment indicated minute differences in that department. However, "minute" improvements can make all the difference for someone like Chris (the OP),who consistently got edges just below his desired level of keenness. If oil helps him, it might help others as well. But, as has been suggested, maybe it's not the oil that helps him, but it's his "Chuck Norris of water" that keeps him back. Note that I write "keeps him back, and not "keeps the Coticule back". If Chris can copy his results of oil with distilled water, but not with his tap water, we at least have one man's answer.

Won't be the first time I've swum (swam, swimmed...?) upstream, so I'll be happy to eat my words if that turns out I'm wrong.

A good scientist never hesitates to be skeptic.

Bart.

 

[Blue58]

Thank you Bart for stating so well what I wanted to say... As you fully understood I was only trying to state that it was possible that his water... not all water could possibly have some quality that was preventing the OP from obtaining the high quality hone of his straight that he wanted. I did not say that this was a given or that it was the only possibility. I only implied that it may be one possibility

 

[wdwrx]

I just want to pipe up and say that I too am skeptical that it's the water holding me back. In all honesty, I've been an apprentice in enough trades at this point in my life, and trained enough people, to not be ashamed to admit that I'm just beginning to learn honing. It takes most of my new helpers months of daily training to get the hang of things.

I am at the point where I'm exploring and experimenting to find that "next level". I try to keep an open mind, and question, and try anything once, and make mistakes, and head down blind alleys, and learn from every one of them. If that means trying different water, then, what the heck, let's try different water!

Using oil on my coti has tipped me over that edge.... the shaves I get now, straight off my coti, no pasted stops, no intermediate hones, nothing but this stone and a plain leather strop, are as good as I've ever had (including a Dovo from SRD....) It's helped me to succeed, with my growing skills, on this hone, and if it can help someone else in my position, regardless of the mechanism at play, then I'll feel pretty good about it. It's also given me a little more confidence in my abilities, and this stone, and re-enforced my faith in believing what people tell me is possible.

Now, to return to the subject at hand, I'm surprised this practice has so fallen out of use. It is commonly referred to in old texts, and is even printed on the box my hone came in. The coticule stone itself seems impervious to oil, and oil on hones is a very common practice with other hones, and as Bart pointed out earlier, on other uses of the coti. The logic, in my mind, bears a lot of scrutiny; oil is used in a huge number of applications in all aspects of our lives to reduce exactly that same abrasive action I am trying to reduce. Water, oil, WD-40, lather, all serve to reduce that action, and interpose a protective layer between the two surfaces. Skill level probably mitigates any beniffit from the practice though, is my guess. But if it makes it easier, then why not? And the stone certainly doesn't seem any the worse for it.

I plan to experiment a little further. I've had hints of good keenness coming off my BBW side, and of course, I can't help but wonder what effect oil would have on that. I also have a new coti due in early next week. I can't wait to compare my results from that stone with the results from the one I have now, in all aspects.


Tonight I will try bottled water. I had to find some that has a low dissolved mineral content (90 ppm) to give the test any validity. I think I'll take one razor through dilucot to the most I feel I can achieve, and then try oil and gauge wether I've lost or gained any keenness.

 

[Woodash]

A good scientist never hesitates to be skeptic.

WhoHoo! I should be awaiting the call from the Nobel Committee anyday!

Using oil on my coti has tipped me over that edge.... the shaves I get now, straight off my coti, no pasted stops, no intermediate hones, nothing but this stone and a plain leather strop, are as good as I've ever had (including a Dovo from SRP....).

Well, that's the bottom line....

 

[wdwrx]

Well, I didn't do it that night, but i did do it tonight. Sometimes life gets in the way.
A nice steady dilucot starting with a bare two swipes of the slurry stone, through to about 80 laps finish on water. Start to finish with a brand-spankin' new bottle of low mineral content water. All the sharpness tests at the end are comparable to my typical job. HHT 0 or 1. AHT "plinks" and tugs a tiny bit. I haven't stropped her yet , though I expect a slight improvement. Not that one razor or one attempt is much of a statistic, but I really don't think it's the water keeping me back. There was no perceptible change in tactile feel..... Whatever.... now what? test the oil again?



..... interlude......




Stropping didn't do a tremendous amount for it.

I just did another round of dilucot, starting with one single swipe of the slurry, and this time, using the absolutely very most super duper lightest stokes I could do..... No improvement in HHT though AHT seems a tad finer.

So I think at this point I'll rule out the water as a factor holding me back.



.... yet another interlude....



I tried some olive oil this time. I was looking for something a little less viscus than mineral oil or castor oil (I don't have any baby oil in the house) but i don't know... the planets must not be aligned properly, or my Karma is out of balance, or the coti gods are demanding another sacrifice. I achieved only a very slight improvement in HHT of the stone and not much more off the strop. AHT doesn't seem all that great an improvement either. A bit if tingle on my arm skin too, makes me think the edge will be a little harsh.
The feed-back was not as smooth and syrupy as the mineral oil, nor was it a smooth and slick as water. Not a very rewarding experiment. I don't think I'm likely to try Olive Oil again.
I think I'll do another run and go back to the mineral oil and see if I can repeat my previous results again.

My new coti is almost here! I can't wait to compare the results..... As soon as it comes in, I'm sending this stubborn coti out to be evaluated by one more knowledgeable than I.

 

[Bart]

I think you're too shy of using some pressure during the finishing process. With the oil, there's a better air lock between steel and hone, and the resulting suction might inadvertently invite you to use more pressure.

Just a hunch.

Bart.

 

[wdwrx]

Thank you Bart,

I'm all for hunches. I will try more pressure then. Lord knows I've tried everything else so far.

My first attempt with oil surprised me with the apparent force it seemed to exert downwards. It was as if the oil created it's own force drawing the edge hard into the hone. At least thats the only way I can describe it. I think you may be onto something.
And to be honest, I've been conciuosly working towards achieving the lightest, most even stroke I could, and as I hone more, I'm sure I've been getting better at that. To the point where I could be too light now, especially with a coti.

 

[Luecke2326]

Wow, this is a fantastic thread worth resurrecting! @Bart I’m assuming is the proprietor of Coticule.be
I’m amazed at the sheer amount of experience in three pages of forum data!

 

[Luecke2326]

@Dcaddo what are your thoughts on using oil?


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[Ufgoodies]

Thanks for resurrecting this, it’s an informative and riviting read!

 

[Twelvefret]

Wow, this is a fantastic thread worth resurrecting! @Bart I’m assuming is the proprietor of Coticule.be
I’m amazed at the sheer amount of experience in three pages of forum data!

I just got a coticule and read the instructions by the maker of these stones instruct to use water since these stones are non porous. The site said oil is used with porous stones to prevent iron from being stuck in the pores.

 

[Rugger007]

Using oil on a Coti as the final stage will yield an exceptionally smooth edge with a nice increase in the final sharpness of your edge. As was mentioned, do not be afraid to use some pressure when finishing, don’t bear down on it but definitely more that “the weight of the razor” nonsense.
A Coti is non porous and oil will have no I’ll effect on the stone.

 

[timwcic]

Nice bump

I have seen it written that using oil is because a user has not learned to hone on water. I have seen it written oil is the way to hone on a coti. With that said, I have been using oil for years on my Uber hard coti’s. Some of my best coticule edges were delivered using oil. Just two or three drops spread evenly over the surface and a few dozen x strokes, give it a try

 

[Luecke2326]

Nice bump

I have seen it written that using oil is because a user has not learned to hone on water. I have seen it written oil is the way to hone on a coti. With that said, I have been using oil for years on my Uber hard coti’s. Some of my best coticule edges were delivered using oil. Just two or three drops spread evenly over the surface and a few dozen x strokes, give it a try

Thanks, Tim! I was hoping you'd make a comment. I'll be trying out oil this evening to see how it goes.

 

[David]

@Dcaddo what are your thoughts on using oil?


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Almost all of the vintage coticules I’ve seen with labels or boxes advised to use with lather, oil, or water. Using them with slurry like many of us do today is a relatively new thing. I’ve never seen a vintage coticule come with or mention a slurry stone, aside from the Brazilian stone.

I have used oil many times on my cotis and believe it is a good way to squeeze a bit more out of your stone in the finishing stages. Some cotis do absorb the oil, so I would recommend washing the stone after each use. A drop of dish soap or glycerin will mimic the results of oil, so give those a try as well.

 

[timwcic]

Thanks, Tim! I was hoping you'd make a comment. I'll be trying out oil this evening to see how it goes.

If you have used the coti before using slurry or water only, you have a base line of what it is capable to give. I second of cleaning recommendations of David @Dcaddo , oil can get into manganese or glue joints faults. Any residual oil can have a grain of sand or even household dust stick. Something that can ruin your day during next use

 

[Christian1212]

I havent read all these post but thought I would just add what I thought. Not all coticules can finish a razor. I have had a few different coticules and my best results always came from ballistol (near end I would dilute it with some water). I think oil definitely helps a coticule. I also believe the only thing slurry does is speed things up but for testing a coticule you should just go to 5 or 8k synthetic then do water only finish (or oil if water doesnt work for you). Just do a bit of research on what oil can do to a coticule though beforehand.

 

[stone and strop]

[/QUOTE]Tonight I will try bottled water. I had to find some that has a low dissolved mineral content (90 ppm) to give the test any validity. I think I'll take one razor through dilucot to the most I feel I can achieve, and then try oil and gauge wether I've lost or gained any keenness.[/QUOTE]


I use only distilled water on all my hones. It is inexpensive, easily found at pharmacies and insures purity .

 

[Doc226]

Oil or soap definitely bumps up the keenness on a coticle, I have done this many times and never had an issue with the oil on the stone.