My Foray into the world of methodshaving....

[PoshRichM]

Brett, LOL.

Adam, the major critique I have (well, had) of Method Shaving/RMWS is that until very recently (via Joel's exposé and the new MethodShaving.com site) it was not possible to learn how to use the method without a trip to Austin, or secondhand lessons from a devotee.

CR's essays only inflamed the issue (and I'm a wordsmith at heart--the man takes circumlocutions to a new level of artistry), because they give the impression of hiding the need to pay an entry fee to get the knowledge. The need to pay would have been fine, if it had been the case, but then just having said so would have cleared things up. Instead CR positioned himself as the Messiah of Frustrated Shavers Everywhere, and then appeared to withhold the keys to the kingdom--but not say he was doing so outright.

I've read and reread the essays and a number of shorter publications on the RMWS (and perused at great length the brush diagrams, cutting forms, etc.), and it wasn't until I saw Joel's pictorial, and had used a brush myself for several months, that I could truly get what the "bucket" or "canopy" might be, where the "breech" was, how the "shoulder" worked, and similar things. Even pretty fundamental concepts like "up position" (is that bristles-up, lifted-up-by-handle [bristles down], or just lifted-up-from-palm?), "open-breech position," "charging the brush" and "locking the breech" don't make a lot of sense in and of themselves.

ANYWAY, thankfully the info blockade has ceased, and getting access to the basics of the method is looking easier all the time. In my opinion striving for greater clarity and transparency is the best possible thing Method Shaving/RMWS can do for itself.

Rant off.

I'm really looking forward to getting the products. Thanks for participating here!

-Rich

 

[HlSheppard]

Chris -

I do exactly what Joel does in his pics. I use the cube along with the Hydrolast paste and some "hi-end" cream. Sometimes Taylor's, somtimes Proraso or AOS, etc.

The lather ends up being somewhat "lighter" yet much more slippery. I find it also rinses much easier (from my face and the brush) and more completely than straight cream(s).

 

[methodshaving.com]

Chris,

The lather built with shave paste and a cube will not look like or resemble a traditonal shave cream, trying to do so will be a very futile effort. Shave paste is designed to be as close to water as possible and provide just enough slip, while the cube helps volumize and manage the water.

Here is the most effective method for using the cube and paste. Start by working the cube with the brush. You are not using enough of the cube if you do not have a very thick billowy looking soap, which will start to appear everywhere. When you think you hae enough, work it a bit longer for good measure. I will then apply the left over soap to my face by hand, and spread a thin layer of shave paste across my whole face. I will then begin to work the brush on my face and begin to add water a little bit at a time, you may need to add a touch more shave paste to the brush.

Again you have to remember that shave paste is not designed to work like or mimic a traditional cream. This product is for those looking for a chemical free way to work with as much pure water as possible. On a seperate note, while some enjoy the addition of shave paste to the traditional creams I really do not see the need for this. Yet, may seem to really enjoy its benefit. I am either going to use a traditonal cream or shave paste, depends on the mood. Though it has become very infrequent that I go back to a traditional cream, mainly a pang of guilt for the few tubs remaining. The nice thing for me is how much nicer my skin is with the shave paste.

 

[methodshaving.com]

Rich,

I can understand where you are coming from. Yet, I have one question that I ask everyone when they say these things... Did you ever consider picking up the phone and calling Charles? A call to Charles will usually clear up any and all mystery as he is more than generous on the phone and will talk shaving with anyone for far longer than you will probably want.

The thing that always seems to be missed is the fact that this is a personal service and Charles gives this attention to people. To think that it is so easy as to post a few steps and viola you are fine is absurd. How long have you been visiting these site? Surely based on some of your previous comments this has not solved and cured all of your problems. So to think that people can read a page or five and eveything is going to be great just does not compute for me.

I guess the one thing I have not seen much of in most forums over the past few years is people trying to learn how to shave. In fact 99.999% of all post seem to relate around products like brushes, creams, soaps, etc. To think that a product is going to make everything right is a very bad assumption. Don't get me wrong I see the occassional post on blade angle and this that or the other or problems with irritation. But really these are few and far between and the most common answer seems to be change the razor, try this product. To me this is all the wrong aproach.

Ok I have gone way of course... So here is the opportunity to learn. What problems are you having and what equipment are you using. Then we can get to the heart of the matter.

 

[Brett G]

Many wet shavers still throw up a wall every time Method Shaving is mentioned. It seems that the primary reason, other than the perceived lack of fun/strict regiment factor, is the misunderstanding over CAR’s Shaving Graces essays. Again, these writings were never intended to teach people how to shave. They were CAR’s attempt to put his passion and ideas about shaving into writing. In the beginning there were no written instructions because all of his shavers were taught either in person or over the phone. As Method Shaving has grown, there has been more and more information available as to the actual process. There is still no step-by-step guidebook because as I said before, it is a framework, not a set of stereo instructions. Look on the Method Shaving web site and you will find detailed instructions for building a HydroLast/Cube mix. All of the cutting forms are available. There are articles that stress the importance of reduction, how to manage the wetness of the shaving surface and the techniques needed to cut it (aka velocity), and also how to finish. In fact, there is more specific information available in one place than there is for traditional wet shaving. Traditional information has to be pieced together from several different sources and there is often conflicting information. Sometimes there are ten different responses to the same question. And while differences in opinion are great and the experienced Method Shaving guys don’t always agree on everything, there is no dispute over the basic framework. It is there for all to see. Shaving is a very personal thing and most of the minute details need to be filled in by the shaver himself. Could some of these things be communicated through pictures and video? Absolutely, and Joel did an excellent job with his first presentation. I’m sure more will become available in the future.

Like Adam said, if someone is having specific problems, ask specific questions. One of the experienced Method Shavers will be plenty happy to offer advice

 

[Joe Lerch]

First of al Adam, let me thank you for all the interest you're taking here. I appreciate it, and I'm sure everyone else does. I hope you'll continue to participate, because there's a forum here on method shaving. Other than your own site, i don't know of anyone that has one. I can tell you there's a great dea of interest in it, and having these discussions here will serve our community well. Many people may not be entirely comfortable at your site, and getting their introduction here will smooththe transition.

Since we have a forum for method shaving, I think this whole thread, including Joel's review should be moved there. That way anyone interested in method shaving would be sure to find this thread. WIth Joel's review as a sticky at the top, it'll be perfect.

Adam, you may be right in the points you're making, but the perception is certainly what has been presented here. When we have a cube and shaving paste and cutting balm all worked together, it certainly doesn't look like there's a lot of flexibility. Add to that the prescribed cutting forms, and you can hardly be surprized at the perception. I know it's not an accurate one and that method shaving is intended to be totally individualized.

As for the fun part, how much can you eliminate and still be practicing the method? You're right I use forms of a sort, I practice beard reduction, I shave with flowing strokes, I use a fine brush and keep it constantly wet and wetting my face. These were things I did before I knew about the CRMWS. O ther than that, my shaving has been pretty much freestyle. I rotate through razors, using mostly str8s (but I had to cut that back temporarily) at least 5 DEs (including the shunned Futur and Vision) as well as injectors. I freewheel through a collection of soaps, creams and even an occasional gel. How much of that could I do and still be in the system?

As for my other concerns, your participation here goes a long way towards clarifying things and eliminating the mystery. Joel considered method shaving important enought o give it a forum. I'm happy you are paticipating. The guys may seem a little rough or skeptical at first but I'm sure that'll change as we all learn more about CRMWS and develop our own systems.

In any case welcome and keepup the good work.

Joe, et al.:

I am glad that after spending some time evaulating things that the big bad wolf of method shaving seems more and more like a nice puppy. As for a few of the other issues I have to really stop and think, even laugh at times. Everyone claims two things that just make no sense to me in any way shape or form.

 

[PoshRichM]

I can understand where you are coming from. Yet, I have one question that I ask everyone when they say these things... Did you ever consider picking up the phone and calling Charles? A call to Charles will usually clear up any and all mystery as he is more than generous on the phone and will talk shaving with anyone for far longer than you will probably want.

The thing that always seems to be missed is the fact that this is a personal service and Charles gives this attention to people. To think that it is so easy as to post a few steps and viola you are fine is absurd. How long have you been visiting these site? Surely based on some of your previous comments this has not solved and cured all of your problems. So to think that people can read a page or five and eveything is going to be great just does not compute for me.

I have to be honest: this is exactly the sort of talk that gets me nervous when I hear it from someone selling a product or a process. No, I didn't consider calling Charles, for the express purpose that me doing so would put him in a position of conflict of interest: it's in his interest to get me to buy his products and subscribe to his methods; i.e., it's impossible for him to be a disinterested observer, and while he may believe everything he says to the core of his being (and I believe he does) what that call would lack is any means of evaluating what he says in any context but his own. It's like going into an evangelist's tent and asking, "So what about this Jesus guy?" Charles is only human, like the rest of us.

This is the service Joel has provided with his pictorial: a very experienced wet shaver, evaluating the RMWS products and method against the context of wet shaving as a whole. I have no doubt that Charles is a fantastic guy and a guy who has studied the universe of shaving extensively (and Joel and many others have said as much on numerous occasions), but Joel is an experimenter and a connoisseur of dozens of shaving products and styles, and what he says about a given means of removing beard hair is worth more to me because he's not selling any one approach.

This is, in fact, why I have at last ordered Enchanté products.

If I can't get them to work for me, then I most certainly will call Charles to ask about the particulars. I think I've got a good bead on his philosophy from reading his other works.

I guess the one thing I have not seen much of in most forums over the past few years is people trying to learn how to shave. In fact 99.999% of all post seem to relate around products like brushes, creams, soaps, etc. To think that a product is going to make everything right is a very bad assumption. Don't get me wrong I see the occassional post on blade angle and this that or the other or problems with irritation. But really these are few and far between and the most common answer seems to be change the razor, try this product. To me this is all the wrong aproach.

Ok I have gone way of course... So here is the opportunity to learn. What problems are you having and what equipment are you using. Then we can get to the heart of the matter.

Okay, I'm always up for learning. I have been through many forms of DE razor, but my standby has come to be the Merkur Hefty Classic, using the standard Merkur blade.

My brush is a Vulfix #2197, which I'm fairly sure is not up to Method Shaving standards. I also have a SMF brush which probably would pass muster (despite its lack of 'shoulder'), but I'm not using it at present, because of some wood-finish issues I'm taking up with Bernd.

I've experimented with various creams and soaps as well, and these days I use either Col. Conk BayRum or Lime soap, or Taylor Avocado cream, Truefitt & Hill Lavender cream, or Trumper's Almond cream. I've found these to be the most efficacious of the two dozen or so products I've ordered and tried so far. The creams I almost always adulterate with some Pacific Shave Oil for better lubrication and water retention.

Passes: two with the grain, two directly across the grain, and then touchups, which are almost always in the problem areas I list below.

After shaving, I apply Witch Hazel to any irritated areas, then spray Em's Place Lavender Hydrosol all over the face, let it mostly dry, and then use a small amount of Trumper's Rose Skin Food over all 'shaving terrain' to seal in the hydrosol goodness.

Okay, the problems: first, my cheeks and chin look pristine and clean every day; my technique (which has taken several months to develop) and the products above work flawlessly on these areas.

My problems occur below the jawline: the hollows of my throat are difficult to shave without irritation (though that has improved with my blade technique, and most days, lately, is no issue).

Also, behind the points of my jaw (below the ears) is where my current irritation and ingrowns persist. There is little coherent grain here, and the skin there constantly rubs against the collars of the shirts I am required to wear per dress code at work.

Finally, there are two areas under my chin that with-grain and cross-grain shaving never seen to clean, and which catch constantly on my shirt collars as well. Direct against-grain shaving (no matter how carefully lubricated with the products above and how stretched taut) has always resulted in skidding and nicks: it's as though the whiskers there refuse to soften properly, or resist the blade more sharply than the rest of my face. I'm reduced to using a Norelco rotary shaver to attend these areas; nothing else has cleared them without penalty.

I know this has been long, but I'm hoping this discussion will help others who are watching and trying to evaluate the RMWS/Method Shaving approach.

-Rich

 

[methodshaving.com]

Rich,
The reason I asked if you called Charles was because near everyone is shocked to find out that he will not try to sell you anything, but that he truly wants to help you with you shave, etc. Have you ever picked up a phone and called Charles at QED? This in turn would be the very same conflict of interest you speak of. But enough of that lets tackle the problems at hand.

As for the brush I have used neither of these so I can not tell you how they will work for this style of shaving. I will simply tell you how to doit and you can determine if t works for you. As for the rest, pick one razor I might suggest you stick with a fixed DE. Pick one cream and learn the intricacies of working this with a cube, then you will be able to expand your library. Drop the PSO, or at least the addition of it you your cream. If you ordered cutting balm we will use that i place of PSO for now and you can change it up later if you so desire.

I will address the rest in a new thread, this one is getting beat.

 

[Joe Lerch]

I hear everything you're saying about CR and I'm sure it's true, but you have to realize the resisteance there is to doing something like this. ANyone who has spoken to an insurance salesman on the phone knows what I mean (no comparison intended).

The approach you're takin right now is much more pallatable. As people get to know you and get accustomed to hearing how CR is, that will, no doubt, change.

Rich,
The reason I asked if you called Charles was because near everyone is shocked to find out that he will not try to sell you anything, but that he truly wants to help you with you shave, etc. Have you ever picked up a phone and called Charles at QED? This in turn would be the very same conflict of interest you speak of. But enough of that lets tackle the problems at hand.

 

[methodshaving.com]

Joe,

That is why I am making this attempt. I understand the hesitation, believe me I went through it myself. The insanity flag comes up for me as most people who feel this hesitant about CR think nothing of picking up a phone and calling Ray at Classicshaving or Charles at QED. To me this is pure hypocracy, they are in business to sell you things like anyone else. It just feels more palatable in public because they are viewed as affordable.

Much like anything else in life, if I really want to investigate some one and the claims they make I speak with them, I visit with them etc. Anyone selling anything is going to make lofty claims, some just hide it far better than CR. It would be no different for me if I were investigating a college or university. I read the litterature, I speak with the school, I visit the school and all through out I speak with alumni. No one piece of anything is ever so compelling for me to have a take it or leave it attitude. Especially when you really want to get a certain result.

In the end what sold me was speaking with CR, speaking with the many happy customers and then visiting with him. The one thing I can say and I hope people will listen is this: CR has a long line of customer, most of whom are very intelligent and highly educated. I have never seen these people tell me that what he is doing is crap, and I do not beleive that these people would buy in and keep doing so year after year if he was so far off the mark. In fact the objectors are those who do not investigat, do not try, and those who want to argue with equipment and prices. If you are looking for discount shopping, then this is not the place. I understand that, it is why we have Wal Mart and Saville Row in this world. People make the decisions that are right for them both personally and finacially.

I really hope everyone is getting something from these diatribes of mine. I know it is something I and many others have avoided for a long time due to harsh reaction. I want to make clear that I am doing this to promote the positives and to learn from the feedback. In the end we are all really after the same thing, a perfect shave with great tools and a wonderful sense of well being from doing so. If it takes a steeming pile of cow dung and a rusty pocket knife for some one to get that, then all the power to then as they have my support. Method Shaving, RMWS and Wet Method are all small subsets of the gobal thing we call Wet Shaving, it is never going to be the end all be all for everyone. Yet, I believe and I think you do as well, that the tenants and framework for this is truly beneficial to all who will spend a bit of time investigating.

 

[Joe Lerch]

When most people call QED, it's with the intention of buying something or because of a trusted recommendation. They're not calling with a problem expecting to be sold some mysterious "system." It's a similar situation but very different overall. What you're doing here goes a long way towards clearing up the mystery and making us comfortable enough to think of CR just like QED or Classic Shaving.

In my own case, I tried the cube, shaving paste and after shave balm for the first time last night. Just let me preface this by saying that I'm using a prescription for a skin condition. For the last week, I cut back my shaving significantly to avoid irritation, using no str8s and no products except Noxema foam (something I've used forever and never experienced a skin problem). At the end of my shave I just applied cold water and then my prescription as if it was an aftershave balm. All signs of irritation are now gone.

Since the CR products are all natural it seemed like a good next step. The cube does not lather like I'm used to and I miss not being able to use my bowl, but the recommended procedure produces an extremely wet, but loose lather. It fills the brush nicely, goes on smooth and forms a nice, slick layer, which feels kind of thin, but works well. To minimize the lathering on my hand (I like to keep slippery stuff of them) I applied the shaving paste right to my face over a thin layer of the soap. I then formed a thicker layer of lather on top. I must say that my face and the brush stayed very wet (I did add some water and lathered up before each pass), even when I dilly-dallyed.

Despite my lack of comfort with the thin lather, it really did its job and three passes (in the JLMWS forms) produced an almost clean shave. For touchup, I did add a little paste to the brush and lathered, then I applied a thin layer by hand to selected spots. Touchup was extremely smooth and easy in all directions, and I could maintain the lightest touch yet feel the hair being cut (no skipping). My one deviation was to use a Merkur slant with a Feather blade. I have found that combinatioon to give me the best shave, bar none.

After a long cooling rinse, I applied the after shave balm and let my face dry. My skin really felt great and smoother then I've seen it in a while. Later I applied my prescription.

This morning, my shave was still not stubbled (after 8 hours- normal for this razor), but my face felt wonderful. Better than with just my medication. Not only did the CR products not irritate my skin, but I actually had an improvement! This is a very satisfying first attempt. I usually don't comment on a product until I've used it for 5 days. In this case I may not have much choice, as I'm concerned about what any other product may do.

My overall reaction is pleasant surprise, but I sure miss the fragrant, rich lathers of my English creams (the fun factor?).

I consider my first attempt very satisfying. I had a unique opportunity to try it on a clean slate, so any results could only be related to the CR products. The method was essentially the JLMWS, which is consistent with method shaving in most respects. The shave is as good as (not better than) my best shaves with my usual products, but I'm fussy and I have difficult problems, so that's a high standard. I'm marveling at the after shave balm. If it continues to work this well, it's something I would add to my routine, despite its expense.

I welcome any comments or observations that you may have.

Joe,

That is why I am making this attempt. I understand the hesitation, believe me I went through it myself. The insanity flag comes up for me as most people who feel this hesitant about CR think nothing of picking up a phone and calling Ray at Classicshaving or Charles at QED. To me this is pure hypocracy, they are in business to sell you things like anyone else. It just feels more palatable in public because they are viewed as affordable.

-----

I really hope everyone is getting something from these diatribes of mine. I know it is something I and many others have avoided for a long time due to harsh reaction. I want to make clear that I am doing this to promote the positives and to learn from the feedback. In the end we are all really after the same thing, a perfect shave with great tools and a wonderful sense of well being from doing so. If it takes a steeming pile of cow dung and a rusty pocket knife for some one to get that, then all the power to then as they have my support. Method Shaving, RMWS and Wet Method are all small subsets of the gobal thing we call Wet Shaving, it is never going to be the end all be all for everyone. Yet, I believe and I think you do as well, that the tenants and framework for this is truly beneficial to all who will spend a bit of time investigating.

 

[Brett G]

Joe,
You just experienced first-hand what I had posted earlier on the new Method Shaving thread that Adam started. From a technical aspect, Method Shaving can work with any decent product or tools. What makes it really special is when the techniques and CAR's products are combined into one system. Ultimately it's all about your skin. The quality of the skin is what keeps people coming back (that and the superb customer service).

PS. Just to reiterate a point. The after-shave moisturizer is expensive ($35 for 2oz), but it lasts forever. That 2oz jar can easily go 10mos to a year.

 

[methodshaving.com]

Joe,

I think you touched on the two things that every one should consider. First a good shave is a good shave. It should not matter if you use williams soap or a hydrolast product, the end result is a clean smooth face with no irritation following the shave. If you get anything less it is time to examine the situation no matter what system or product you use. Yet the main differntiator, and the reason I and many others come back is the change in my skin over a period of time. It is safe for me to say that years later my skin is clearer, healthier and better looking than with anything else I have tried.

So with the acknowledgement of a good shave being a good shave, the real difference is you skin. Everyone should try unsing one set of products for a couple weeks or even months and really take a close look at the quality of their skin. To me this is the tie breaker. By the way I love the slant/feather combo and use it near daily if I am not grabbing my dovo MP or TI 7/8.

 

[fisherc]

Adam et al:

Is it fair to say that the cube/paste lather has roughly the same consistencey as the cube alone ? In my experience the paste does not "thicken" the lather in any way. Is this your experience as well ?

regards,
Chris

 

[Joe Lerch]

I found it didn't change the lather. What it did was make the mix more slippery without changing the consistency. I also found the lather from the cube didn't dry out on my face during the shave.

Adam et al:

Is it fair to say that the cube/paste lather has roughly the same consistencey as the cube alone ? In my experience the paste does not "thicken" the lather in any way. Is this your experience as well ?

regards,
Chris

 

[methodshaving.com]

Chris,
You are correct in that shave paste does not lather or thicken, that is what the cube is for. I find I enjoy a thinner looser lather, but when I need to thicken it I go back to the cube.

 

[fisherc]

Thanks Joe and Adam:

I tried the cube/paste again this AM. I must say it really makes a heck of a mess. The lather is "loose" and thin relative to traditional cream. The lubrication is as good as but no better than traditional cream. I would have to say shave efficacy is about the same. I am heavy in to skin care and it does seem to leave the skin a bit more conditioned post shave than the traditional cream. Net I'd say the shave is as good as traditional cream and the skin condition is a bit better. Is my take in line with other RMWS users ?

Chris

 

[Joe Lerch]

I'm with you on the mess. Adam, is there any neat way to do this?

My reaction was the same as yours, except I think The brush and lather on the face remain wet a long time.

Thanks Joe and Adam:

I tried the cube/paste again this AM. I must say it really makes a heck of a mess. The lather is "loose" and thin relative to traditional cream. The lubrication is as good as but no better than traditional cream. I would have to say shave efficacy is about the same. I am heavy in to skin care and it does seem to leave the skin a bit more conditioned post shave than the traditional cream. Net I'd say the shave is as good as traditional cream and the skin condition is a bit better. Is my take in line with other RMWS users ?

Chris

 

[methodshaving.com]

The only suggestion I have is to work the cube again after your intial lather on your face to thicken and volumize the paste. It was desgined to be a loose wet fast cutting mix. Hence the whole concept of high velocity. From the get go it waas not going to be designed for this as a lot of the customers asked for it. It is a shave as good a english cream without the thick slow cutting lather, it is wetter than most and 100% natural. This product is not for everyone, but it does the jib really well and I think it excels with a 0.025 micron open blade or a feather DE.

 

[blueasajewel]

I have been using the CAR products and doing the Method Shaving process for about 1.5 weeks, and all I can say is that I am simply blown away by the results.

I have never experienced shaves this close or comfortable ever. My skin looks and feels amazing.

I always ask my boys (4 & 8) to feel my face after a particularly good shave - the other day after using my Feather Artist & Progress, my 4yr old came up and felt my face - he said "Dad, how'dja do that?" and on hearing that my 8yr. came up and felt my face - his only response was "Whoaaa".

I tried an experiment this morning, where I tried to sub the cutting balm and a/s for some Mont Source shaving oil I have and Trumpers Coral Skin Food.

I used my Feather Artist and Slant razor. No comparison, in terms of comfort. While the resulting end shave was not bad (not "Whoaa" status), I had far more nicks and small cuts - part of this may have had to do with the pairing of two very sharp and potentially aggressive razors - but while shaving the blades did not glide as easily or smoothly on form 3.

The Mont Source shaving oil was pitiful when compared to the CAR Cutting Balm -

Usually may face feels soft, supple and conditioned - this a.m. it was was on the edge of feeling raw (note: it feels much better now 3 hrs after the shave).

So I for one am sold, and compared to my original routine, Method Shaving is simpler, faster and provides significantly better results.