I finish with light slurry and as jp says work it out on slurry dilute every two or three sets , when slurry gets thin I work for a good while then start the dipping process..use a little pressure also I use 6x40mm hone I do about 8 to 10 circles up and same back.. I do lots of sets ..
Learning edge maintenance on a coticule
- Thread starter JHP
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- #23
Thanks for all your input. I'm excited to get started! I'm sure this is honing 101, but what do you gentlemen consider a set?
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- #24
I'm getting shavable edges now. Last night I was able to get a Unicot edge that, off the stone, was consistently HHT2-3 at 10mm from my fingers along the full edge. 60 laps on linen. 60 laps on leather. I was able to get HHT4 10mm from my fingers and HHT2-3 at 30mm. I was actually pretty encouraged and excited for the shave this morning. Result? It shaved. Nothing stellar. WTG was good but tugging on the XTG and ATG passes. I was reading on the Eating Crow: Coticules thread that Gary gets HHT4 at 40mm. Seems as though I'm a long way from that.
Everything I read indicates that setting the bevel is the key. When I attempt to shave arm hair while bevel setting, I end up with a pile of arm hair on the blade, but it isn't as though EVERY hair has been shaved off with only bare skin left behind. LOTS of arm hair is removed but not every last follicle. Maybe I need to keep going at this stage?
I've been reading the threads on lapping film guys . . . they make it sound so easy. I'm feeling the pull! Help!!!
Everything I read indicates that setting the bevel is the key. When I attempt to shave arm hair while bevel setting, I end up with a pile of arm hair on the blade, but it isn't as though EVERY hair has been shaved off with only bare skin left behind. LOTS of arm hair is removed but not every last follicle. Maybe I need to keep going at this stage?
I've been reading the threads on lapping film guys . . . they make it sound so easy. I'm feeling the pull! Help!!!
I used to use my arm hair to check the bevel but I don't any more. Try using the thump pad or thumbnail trick. They are more consistent for me and it will save you a lot of arm hair. In both test the blade should stick an kind of dig in to either your nail or skin. Don't use the thumbnail trick above 1k though because it could mess up your edge a little bit and always make sure to do a few more strokes after the test.
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- #26
Thanks Anthony,
I'm not sure I fully understand the thumbpad test yet, but I do it frequently in order to begin building a feel for different edges.
If I do the thumbnail test, with almost no pressure applied, I can feel the blade digging into my nail across the full length of the edge. If I try to slide the blade sideways out of the groove it has created it my nail, it won't move. This seems to imply to me that the bevel is set. Yes?
The shaves are adequate, but there is too much tugging on and around my chin.
Yes that should mean that your bevel is set. Make sure your not using pressure. I hold the blade by its tang and pull it gently backward to see if it grabs. Also different parts of the edge especially heel and toe to make sure they are equally grabby. Once you think the bevel is set through this do a few more strokes, 5 or 10, to reverse the negative effects the thumbnail test can have on your edge.
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- #28
I started with a bevel that was already passing the thumbnail test. Made a slurry and worked the edge for awhile, followed by dilutions. By the end of that, it was mowing ALL ARM HAIR. The bevel was set.
The question in my mind is if I'm not going far enough to fully finish the edge, or if I'm killing it with slurry dulling or something like that. So I did an experiment.
1. 75 laps on water. Razor weight only. Solid HHT1 off the stone. No more.
2. 75 laps on oil. Solid HHT2 off the stone over most of the blade. Little weak near the heal.
I wanted more.
3. 75 laps on water with liquid hand soap - had to wash off the oil anyway, so why not give it a try. HHT2 off the stone.
4. I was was beginning to think that I'm just not quite getting enough abrasion to get the edge as keen as I'd like, so I decided to do one more set of 75 on misty slurry. I mean really misty. I wet the stone, wet my finger, ran my wet finger over a patch of dried slurry on my slurry stone, and then rubbed that on the hone. Result - very light misty slurry. 75 laps. HHT1 off the stone. I went backward.
I feel like I am so close. I'm circling around it. I know that the HHT2 edge will shave, but it isn't as keen as I'd like. Suggestions?
The question in my mind is if I'm not going far enough to fully finish the edge, or if I'm killing it with slurry dulling or something like that. So I did an experiment.
1. 75 laps on water. Razor weight only. Solid HHT1 off the stone. No more.
2. 75 laps on oil. Solid HHT2 off the stone over most of the blade. Little weak near the heal.
I wanted more.
3. 75 laps on water with liquid hand soap - had to wash off the oil anyway, so why not give it a try. HHT2 off the stone.
4. I was was beginning to think that I'm just not quite getting enough abrasion to get the edge as keen as I'd like, so I decided to do one more set of 75 on misty slurry. I mean really misty. I wet the stone, wet my finger, ran my wet finger over a patch of dried slurry on my slurry stone, and then rubbed that on the hone. Result - very light misty slurry. 75 laps. HHT1 off the stone. I went backward.
I feel like I am so close. I'm circling around it. I know that the HHT2 edge will shave, but it isn't as keen as I'd like. Suggestions?
When I get close but not all the way there I rinse the stone then rub 2 or 3 times with the slurry stone. Some laps on that then back to clean water. Repeat as necessary. Be careful doing 75 laps between dilutions. As the slurry dries out or thickens up it can have ill effects on the edge. This phenomena is known as slurry dulling and is more exhibited in some coticules than in others. Due to this you never let your slurry get thicker as it will most likely move you backwards
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- #30
Slurry wasn't drying out. I add drops as needed. I'm going to try more water tomorrow. Maybe even running water. Thanks for the help Anthony.
Np I know how difficult it can be to learn to hone on coticules. They were my first stones
one other thing to try is rub with slurry stone make a thick slurry? then totally rinse coticule with water .then work on water . the idea is there are fresh garnets just pertruding the surface enough to cut a little quiker on water only.. try this several times..
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- #33
I'm going to do this.
I know I'm really close. I wrote above in step 4 that I used really misty slurry and that it "killed" the edge. Well, it didn't kill it too much. I just did another experiment. 20 laps on balsa CROX and 20 laps on balsa Iron oxide and I'm getting HHT3 before stropping.
Gary, in our conversations on artisanshaving.org (may it rest in peace . . . ) you really emphasized the importance of using pressure. And I have been doing that and it has worked very well for me in setting the bevel and working through the dilutions. That was a very helpful insight. But how would you characterize the pressure you use once you are to the final finishing stage? Taking into consideration that we think I have a La Grise - does that fact have any impact on finishing? It seems that La Grise is known for being very slow on water which is why I added a very light misty slurry, but that doesn't seem to have helped. Why?
Thanks!
It may not be the stone or your technique, though I finish on plain water washing off slurry with a squirt bottle.
It may be your razor. Is the edge crumbling or chipping under magnification? Tape the spine with an extra layer of tape to increase the angle, do 2-4 light laps with water, to create a micro bevel.
Photos of the razor, edge and stone would help making recommendations.
It may be your razor. Is the edge crumbling or chipping under magnification? Tape the spine with an extra layer of tape to increase the angle, do 2-4 light laps with water, to create a micro bevel.
Photos of the razor, edge and stone would help making recommendations.
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- #35
I'll need to check. What would that indicate to you?
the point your at at the mo ..is it shaving but just not keen enough and slightly under the smooth you hear about from others? if so this is the point I got stuck at with all four la grise, newly mined la grise....I couldn't match the quality that I can with my two la vainettes nor my little la verte or la groose blanch and others I have tried . I have heard that vpeople have had success with the la grise, I once sent mine to two guys one in Scotland one in the usa..the guy in Scotland said send me your least successful coticule and i'll put an edge on it...so I did it cam e back to me the chap said the edge was shave ready . the razor pulled like mad , so every ones shave ready differs ...Its how it shaves to you that's more important... By the sounds of it its not keenenough and no matter how many laps on water your doing its not budging...all coticules are on the slow side with water . pressure when finishing I don't tickle the hone I do x strokes with enough pressure for my razor to make good contact with the hone ..you should could of slurry at the end with at least a violin hht ten a thew laps on water should bring it up to a 3 hht a catch and pop then after strop the hair should split as soon as it makes contact with the cutting edge ....... using crox balsa is another thing I was going to mention to help you bridge the keenness gap,,of the stone you shouldn't need no more than ten on crox and then you can do another 30 laps on coti with water ...I'm not to sure but the chap in the usa said he reckoned the la grise I sent him did nothing in water mode at all, jarred sold quite a thew la grise i'm sure he could shed some light on them.. seriously I tried every trck in the book with mine and I was super close but just not quite there, others I no have struggled like hell and been extremely frustrated . try what I mentioned see if it works ....running under water like Maurice mention didn't make any difference to me ?
When honing there are three things that will affect performance, the hone, the razor and the driver/honer, we must figure out where the problem lies.
With a new honer, it is usually the driver, but we must look at the other options. There are limitations of the stone and you may be at its maximum it may not be a great finisher.
If as you say you are using light pressure with plain water after obtaining a sharp bevel set edge, your technique may be ok, ok enough to produce a shaveable edge.
So next is the razor, maybe you and the stone are doing everything right to produce an edge and are in fact producing an edge, it is just not holding and crumbling or chipping.
Why? Who knows, bad weak steel, Untempered from buffing, Cell rot or the spine is worn and the angle is just too acute. Or the edge just likes a thicker bevel angle.
A micro bevel may eliminate the razor from the equation.
Run a Qtip along the edge lightly, any snags, you have a chipped edge. Magnification will confirm this.
With a new honer, it is usually the driver, but we must look at the other options. There are limitations of the stone and you may be at its maximum it may not be a great finisher.
If as you say you are using light pressure with plain water after obtaining a sharp bevel set edge, your technique may be ok, ok enough to produce a shaveable edge.
So next is the razor, maybe you and the stone are doing everything right to produce an edge and are in fact producing an edge, it is just not holding and crumbling or chipping.
Why? Who knows, bad weak steel, Untempered from buffing, Cell rot or the spine is worn and the angle is just too acute. Or the edge just likes a thicker bevel angle.
A micro bevel may eliminate the razor from the equation.
Run a Qtip along the edge lightly, any snags, you have a chipped edge. Magnification will confirm this.
