Is wet shaving in decline or growing?
- Thread starter hdhaskell
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I wouldn't worry so much about whether products are in brick and mortar stores. Margins are falling everywhere and they can only afford to keep high volume products on the shelves.
I have a few hobbies and interests that are too small to work in any physical store, however, they are big enough for online sellers to make a profit and grow. So while you might not be able to find products locally, it is possible that the market will thrive without that.
One thing that helps is that - in my opinion - Gillette and the others continue to overreach in their pricing. Cartridges are far more expensive than they need to be. Gillette could still make a tidy profit with much lower margins.
Also, we need to evangelize and gift razors as much as possible. I've converted several and will continue to do so. Word of mouth will help this hobby spread.
I have a few hobbies and interests that are too small to work in any physical store, however, they are big enough for online sellers to make a profit and grow. So while you might not be able to find products locally, it is possible that the market will thrive without that.
One thing that helps is that - in my opinion - Gillette and the others continue to overreach in their pricing. Cartridges are far more expensive than they need to be. Gillette could still make a tidy profit with much lower margins.
Also, we need to evangelize and gift razors as much as possible. I've converted several and will continue to do so. Word of mouth will help this hobby spread.
When someone takes the venture to market DE shaving, (Canned goo is still wet) then the actual community will grow. Right now, DE, SE, and straight shaving is marketed to their respective communities in the US. You can only preach to the choir so long before they've heard every sermon.
If Personna or schick take the notion to develop a "gourmet" line of blades and razors, with an entry-level model at about $15-$25, then the community might grow. Gillette would never abandon their business model, and why would they?
It's similar to comic books. Once, they were the same price as Life or Newsweek, and just as profitable to the retailer. As other magazines increased price, comics shrank page counts to maintain the same price from the thirties to the early sixties. No longer as profitable, and replaced by other media, comics retreated to their own stores, be they mail order, brick and mortar, or the Net.
Comics hit the regular bookstores again with the advent of the trade paperback and the graphic novels, priced reasonably for the fan, and more attractively to the retailer as well.
The DE razor can go this route as well, but it needs more effort than the current manufacturers can or will supply.
We're just a step away, but it's a big one.
If Personna or schick take the notion to develop a "gourmet" line of blades and razors, with an entry-level model at about $15-$25, then the community might grow. Gillette would never abandon their business model, and why would they?
It's similar to comic books. Once, they were the same price as Life or Newsweek, and just as profitable to the retailer. As other magazines increased price, comics shrank page counts to maintain the same price from the thirties to the early sixties. No longer as profitable, and replaced by other media, comics retreated to their own stores, be they mail order, brick and mortar, or the Net.
Comics hit the regular bookstores again with the advent of the trade paperback and the graphic novels, priced reasonably for the fan, and more attractively to the retailer as well.
The DE razor can go this route as well, but it needs more effort than the current manufacturers can or will supply.
We're just a step away, but it's a big one.
Ya know, I got into wetshaving when Queer Eye for the Straight Guy was on touting eShave products and my wife bought me an assortment. Then found a local retailer in Dallas named Regimens that carried many lines of mens premium shaving and skin care products, still upset that they closed. I continued using a cartridge for the next 4 years, but did enjoy using a brush and set out to find better shaving creams (still can't get into the soaps, but I am sure thy are coming). It was finding better creams and a trip to Europe when I saw DE razors were sill available that made me curious about the DE razor and now know I will probably at least experiment with a Straight at some point in my shaving evolution (or would it devolution?). In the process I have picked up friends who do it and evangelized to others. While there aren't enough to start a revolution..... We have enough o help keep an internet retailer happy. I have had much less luck with the old timers who think I am nuts and would not go back to the 'trouble' of traditional wet shaving. I do have one that let me buy him some blades for his old army issue DE, but he will only use Barbasol.
There was a point when I stared and I let myself get sidetracked.
There was a point when I stared and I let myself get sidetracked.
Are we talking 'wetshaving', or 'de/se/straight' shaving? IMO, wetshaving is growing as luxury/upscale niche in the men's grooming market, but de/se/straight shaving is static at best.
To put it in further perspective, there are just over 25,000 members on this forum. If you ballparked it and included other wetshaving forums, I would guess that there are about 50,000 self-proclaimed wetshavers on the internet.
50,000 people wouldn't sell out a professional football game. We're a small demographic, and it's taken a while to get these numbers. Even if they doubled, tripled, quadrupled, it would still be a fraction of a fraction of the world at large. Growing? Sure, but not at breakneck speed, nowhere close.
And I like that.
50,000 people wouldn't sell out a professional football game. We're a small demographic, and it's taken a while to get these numbers. Even if they doubled, tripled, quadrupled, it would still be a fraction of a fraction of the world at large. Growing? Sure, but not at breakneck speed, nowhere close.
And I like that.
Antique Hoosier
“Aircooled”
In decline no doubt.
The key unknown here is: the rest of the world. So far, the wetshaving renaissance has been, essentially, a US phenomenon. But affluent (by world standards) American males are probably no more than 10% of the potential global customer base. Just look at the Chinese, Indian and Brazilian markets: the middle class is growing by leaps and bounds. Millions of status-conscious consumers, eager to adopt Western lifestyles and fads. Will this fashion spread, as so many others have? No one knows. Usually, it happens via mass marketing by big companies, but not always.
As long as there is an Internet, I would not worry about a good supply of reasonably-priced consumables (soaps, creams, blades, brushes, etc). But vintage razors? Watch out! If, as I suspect, the wetshaving revival catches on around the world, prices will skyrocket. Today’s RAD will turn into a bonanza just a few years from now.
As long as there is an Internet, I would not worry about a good supply of reasonably-priced consumables (soaps, creams, blades, brushes, etc). But vintage razors? Watch out! If, as I suspect, the wetshaving revival catches on around the world, prices will skyrocket. Today’s RAD will turn into a bonanza just a few years from now.
Although I do not have any numbers to back it up with, I have the distinct impression that the DE/SE/Str8 scene in my home country of Sweden is virtually non-existant. The average supermarket rarely caries any DE-blades, the assortment of traditional wet-shaving soaps is limited at best, the shelves abound with disposables and multi-bladers and I cannot think of anybody I know in Sweden who uses anything else than multibladers or electric razors. There are some fora, online shops and the odd newly opened barbershop but they are few and far between. With any luck Sweden should be a gold mine for cheap Vintage razors at least for str8s since the home production was once very prolific and successful.
There are still quite a few people out there who are not aware of the DE, SE razor. These are mostly the young people who only follow what the crowd does. Unfortunately, what the majority of the young crowd does today is carts and disposable razors. Back in the day, the late 1960's, when I first started shaving, I never thought that the Techmatic, Twin blades, TracII or the Atra would ever have any lasting power. It got really difficult to get quality razor blades in those days because whenever you went to the Supermarket, Pharmacy or retail stores all the quality blades....Wilkinson sword, Personna and Schick were all sold out. There was always Gillette blades to be found but these would leave you a bloody mess with cuts and nicks. Out of necessity, people had to go with the flow till you found some nice blades. There was no Internet or magazines on purchasing razor blades....you just had to buy what your favorite store carried. There were wars in the stores on shelf space for products and the more expensive carts and the handles won that war. Who ever paid the most to the store got the best shelf space for their items.
I did get some nice Wilkinson blades around the late 1970's from a friend who came back from a trip to the UK and had a load in his luggage.
For me it was the Atra razor and their carts that I decided using back in the day. In those days the metal Atra razor was free, under a special promotion....you just paid for the carts...to get you started on the new apparatus. However, I still used a boar brush and Williams soap for my lather and prep.
Today, I imagine a lot of the shaves of all ages are using the Carts in some brand or another. The use of the soaps and creams are most likely being used by all shavers whether they be DE, SE or Cart Shavers. Even electric Wet/Dry shavers are using the popular creams and soaps today rather than the canned goo for their "Shaves".
IMO.... the sales of the creams and soaps are not only for Straight, DE, SE and Electric Wet/Dry shavers but are also being bought up by the Cartridge Generations of shavers or their significant others as gifts for their loved ones.
Cheers, Tutti Frutti.
I did get some nice Wilkinson blades around the late 1970's from a friend who came back from a trip to the UK and had a load in his luggage.
For me it was the Atra razor and their carts that I decided using back in the day. In those days the metal Atra razor was free, under a special promotion....you just paid for the carts...to get you started on the new apparatus. However, I still used a boar brush and Williams soap for my lather and prep.
Today, I imagine a lot of the shaves of all ages are using the Carts in some brand or another. The use of the soaps and creams are most likely being used by all shavers whether they be DE, SE or Cart Shavers. Even electric Wet/Dry shavers are using the popular creams and soaps today rather than the canned goo for their "Shaves".
IMO.... the sales of the creams and soaps are not only for Straight, DE, SE and Electric Wet/Dry shavers but are also being bought up by the Cartridge Generations of shavers or their significant others as gifts for their loved ones.
Cheers, Tutti Frutti.
Also, we need to evangelize and gift razors as much as possible. I've converted several and will continue to do so. Word of mouth will help this hobby spread.[/QUOTE]
So true. I try and gift a few razors and blades to friends I know in the VA Hospital and they are now true coverts to wet shaving. A few of their friends in the Hospital borrow the razors also for their daily shave. All ages and backgrounds are fed up with the disposable and carts.
Cheers.
So true. I try and gift a few razors and blades to friends I know in the VA Hospital and they are now true coverts to wet shaving. A few of their friends in the Hospital borrow the razors also for their daily shave. All ages and backgrounds are fed up with the disposable and carts.
Cheers.
Let's be philosophical.
If it wasn't for the internet,traditional wet shaving would be really screwed.
If it wasn't for the internet,traditional wet shaving would be really screwed.When I bought a new Palmolive shave stick before Christmas, there was six of them on the shelf at my local supermarket. I was looking the other day and they still have five, so I must be the only one to have bought a palmolive shavestick in the past six months from that shop. But these things last so long, you don't need to buy one every few weeks like canned gel. I will monitor over the coming months to see if they sell anymore.
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- #34
That's a lot of replies . . . thanks everyone for your thoughts. Here's what I think I've learned:
1. "Wet shaving" probably actually incorporates three distinct markets:
A. Us: younger, higher-end guys who use a lot of expensive creams, oils, and balms: guys who will pay $10 for a bottle of witch hazel. Most people seem to think this market is small but growing and that we use internet sites a lot. I believe this, because there are dozens of web sites just on our vendor page, whereas there were (by definition) zero fifteen years ago. (HT Mparker 762)
B. Old guys, who started wet shaving back when it was called "shaving". Most people think this group is pretty large but is dying off. Most guys I know in their 70s don't even think about a shaving mug any more, but those that do probably use cheap, high-volume stuff you can buy in a Walgreen's and I'm guessing they're the ones who still have the original tubes for their shaving sticks.
C. International. It occurs to me that there are hundreds of millions or perhaps billions of men in countries like South Korea (how many of us use Dorco?) who shave regularly but can't afford cartridge razors or electric razors. These men alone could keep the very bottom end of the market alive for decades to come. (HT Moshulu)
2. Beyond this, I think that Mercer made an excellent point that advertising drives the overwhelming majority of US consumption, and that wet shaving margins are too small to fund much advertising. Nevertheless, there is a large minority (at least in the US) who generally resent the intrusion of advertising and mass culture into our lives, and these people are natural wet shavers. I mean -- digital watches surpassed mechanical watches around 30-40 years ago but you still see a vibrant business manufacturing mechanical watches.
3. I also can't help reflect on the fact that Gillette just bought out AOS, which presumably means that they see some growth (at least in this one brand) and also means that we may see more aggressive marketing of some larger brands.
But if Tiger Woods ever endorses AOS, I'm dropping it.
1. "Wet shaving" probably actually incorporates three distinct markets:
A. Us: younger, higher-end guys who use a lot of expensive creams, oils, and balms: guys who will pay $10 for a bottle of witch hazel. Most people seem to think this market is small but growing and that we use internet sites a lot. I believe this, because there are dozens of web sites just on our vendor page, whereas there were (by definition) zero fifteen years ago. (HT Mparker 762)
B. Old guys, who started wet shaving back when it was called "shaving". Most people think this group is pretty large but is dying off. Most guys I know in their 70s don't even think about a shaving mug any more, but those that do probably use cheap, high-volume stuff you can buy in a Walgreen's and I'm guessing they're the ones who still have the original tubes for their shaving sticks.
C. International. It occurs to me that there are hundreds of millions or perhaps billions of men in countries like South Korea (how many of us use Dorco?) who shave regularly but can't afford cartridge razors or electric razors. These men alone could keep the very bottom end of the market alive for decades to come. (HT Moshulu)
2. Beyond this, I think that Mercer made an excellent point that advertising drives the overwhelming majority of US consumption, and that wet shaving margins are too small to fund much advertising. Nevertheless, there is a large minority (at least in the US) who generally resent the intrusion of advertising and mass culture into our lives, and these people are natural wet shavers. I mean -- digital watches surpassed mechanical watches around 30-40 years ago but you still see a vibrant business manufacturing mechanical watches.
3. I also can't help reflect on the fact that Gillette just bought out AOS, which presumably means that they see some growth (at least in this one brand) and also means that we may see more aggressive marketing of some larger brands.
But if Tiger Woods ever endorses AOS, I'm dropping it.
seems to be that it is growing but still not mainstream. due to that, big money companies will not carry alot of things as the main demographic user is not a wet shaver. personally, doesn't matter to me since all my soaps have to be ordered online or bought in specialty stores. same with ... well all of my wetshaving gear. :'(
My vote is declining. Sad but true. Most of the men in my generation not only don't wet shave but they don't even know what true wet shaving is.
True story: A buddy of mine was over at my apartment just a few weeks ago and had to use the john. When he came out, he asked me what the stuff by my sink was - he didn't even recognize a d/e razor!
I took a few minutes to explain what the things were and lent him a SuperSpeed to try for a few weeks.
True story: A buddy of mine was over at my apartment just a few weeks ago and had to use the john. When he came out, he asked me what the stuff by my sink was - he didn't even recognize a d/e razor!
I took a few minutes to explain what the things were and lent him a SuperSpeed to try for a few weeks.
Collectibles markets rarely reflect economic realities or the actual number of collectors. It's always an issue of supply, demand, and access to sources. If someone were to discover a secret stash of hundreds of thousands of Fat Boys in some store room deep in the Gillette headquarters, the resales price of everyone's FB would plummet. It also helps that vintage razor collectors tend to be a bit more well funded than collectors of other things.
Jeff in Boston
You hit the nail on the head with this one. It all started on the internet, and it will most likely stay on the internet. Even vegetarianism isn't quite mainstream, and there are MUCH more numbers behind that. I've heard that it takes a figure of 13% of a population to make something mainstream.
Keep in mind that Target and Walmart want to sell high volume. It reduces their costs and increases their revenue. If they can't move product in this way they won't carry them. Not to mention the smaller profit margin from a quality product as opposed to the super cheap to produce canned goos. Walmart in particular wants to keep their suppliers under their control and they have a somewhat exclusive relationship with Proctor and Gamble who owns Gillette. Walmart can dictate what they will buy and for how much and if you don't play ball they will kick you to the curb. Target isn't as tough but they are close. Unfortunately with the rise of online sales for a lot of wet shaving products, demand at the big box brick and mortar stores has decreased. Not to mention the lack of marketing for these products.
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Traditional wetshaving is a small market that is profitable for high end major retailers. I live in an area that has an AOS, Nordstrom and Sephora in the same mall and they all sell high end shaving products. When the economy took a down turn I thought AOS would close up and go back to internet or Nordstrom sales only. However, they all seem to be doing quit well with the high end products.
I would venture to say that most men over 55 use electric razors ,so I think that the statement that the market is declining because of men passing is not accurate. I have several relatives over the age of 65 and none are wetshavers.
Mark(Mantic) has an interview being published in Money magazine in May. It will be interesting to see how the E-Bay market and shaving forums respond to the coverage. However large the interest we will always remain a niche market, but we will be profitable for the retailers due to the cost factor.
I would venture to say that most men over 55 use electric razors ,so I think that the statement that the market is declining because of men passing is not accurate. I have several relatives over the age of 65 and none are wetshavers.
Mark(Mantic) has an interview being published in Money magazine in May. It will be interesting to see how the E-Bay market and shaving forums respond to the coverage. However large the interest we will always remain a niche market, but we will be profitable for the retailers due to the cost factor.
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