It's like a train wreck or a trashy newspaper at the checkout.
You can't help but look.
I got famous! LOL
- Thread starter sbogill
- Start date
You can't help but look.
- Thread starter
- #22
True! I brought him up a few times because while he is yesterday’s news to all you guys I’m just getting back to the hobby after taking several years off. His whole spiel is still new to me.
A thinner bevel may have less cutting resistance, but the edge is not actually sharper -- not the same thing really.
The other thing of note is that if you reduce the bevel angle to below what the steel will support you will have edge retention problems.
The effects are going to be minor anyway if the amount of convexity is rational anyway.
The other thing of note is that if you reduce the bevel angle to below what the steel will support you will have edge retention problems.
The effects are going to be minor anyway if the amount of convexity is rational anyway.
duke762
Rose to the occasion
Being called a dumb, typical, American because my hones are flat doesn't sit well with me. He will never see one of my dumb, typical, American dollars. And I'll double and triple down on that.......
No way for a business man act, it isn't conductive to business success.
No way for a business man act, it isn't conductive to business success.
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I agree.
My biggest problem is that some of the main selling points is deceptive, and is also corrupting any rational discussions about the benefits of using convex stones.
Let's say that the effective part of the edge that does the cutting is 50 micron. The rest of the edge is more or less along for the ride.
If you have a ruler in SI units you can draw a mental picture.
If you divide 1 mm by 20 you get 50 microns. Or you can split a human hair in the longitudinal direction.
The argument that you can effect this tiny section of the edge in any meaningful way with convex stones is in my opinion misleading.
Thinner cuts better, yes, but the part of the edge that actually gets thinner and more flexible is not in contact with the hair.
By using a series of different shapes you might be able to change the bevel angle by 0.5 deg. That is not enough to make a big difference. However, there will be a small difference.
Most DE razor blades have a bevel angle that is more obtuse then most straight razors. They are still able to cut quite efficiently, despite being thicker behind the apex.
So, if you want to sell something you need to be honest, and respectfull to your customers.
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Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
There’s nothing different about this thread vs all the others.
Why not use a paper wheel then? The edge will be short and won't touch the stone. Giving it concavity and a reduced angle. The strop however will come up short. But we can make a flap wheel out of short pieces of leather and power strop. Anyone have a spare kanayama we can cut up and use for "science"? OR we can continue using flat stones. 
The axe analogy does not work, because you still have to push the axe through the wood, once a hair is cut, it is cut.
Here is an interesting argument for why thinned edges don’t work. Anyone that has experimented a lot with balsa pasted strops also has the same problem, as aggressive diamonds will thin the bevel to a point where the steel will not support the edge.
Yes, he is talking about woodworking tools, but this hollow ground argument has been going on for years in the woodworking community. His argument about how much of the actual edge is affected is interesting and makes sense.
In effect what a convex stone will do is hollow grind the bevel, but how much of the edge is affected?
Jarod admits that he is convexing stones, to sell stones that he could not sell otherwise.
(WRONG INTERNET TREND! - Watch before you sharpen with a bench grinder!)
Here is an interesting argument for why thinned edges don’t work. Anyone that has experimented a lot with balsa pasted strops also has the same problem, as aggressive diamonds will thin the bevel to a point where the steel will not support the edge.
Yes, he is talking about woodworking tools, but this hollow ground argument has been going on for years in the woodworking community. His argument about how much of the actual edge is affected is interesting and makes sense.
In effect what a convex stone will do is hollow grind the bevel, but how much of the edge is affected?
Jarod admits that he is convexing stones, to sell stones that he could not sell otherwise.
(WRONG INTERNET TREND! - Watch before you sharpen with a bench grinder!)
The hollow in woodworking tools isn't anywhere here the edge, it's there to reduce sharpening time (which counts when you are trying to make a living with tools!). A hollow ground bevel at around 30 degrees will leave a hollow between the front and back, giving a two point contact with a stone. Much much easier to free-hand the chisel or plane iron since it won't rock. A new hollow gets ground, usually on a bench grinder with an 8" or so wheel when needed. The hollow is NOT at the edge. Low speed wheel and a fine grit one is best, so is a grinding attachment to hold the tool and control the amount of steel being removed to prevent temper loss.
Some woodworkers like to use a basic 20 degree bevel with the edge honed at 30 degrees or so (depending on use), again to reduce sharpening time.
No need to provide the hollow on anything but a true wedge razor, that's when there is a spine and a bevel after all.
I think convex stones just add some complexity to honing with minimal or no actual difference in use.
Again, I'd not bother to comment on what looks like attitude on the internet, too many trolls aready, no need to feed them.
Some woodworkers like to use a basic 20 degree bevel with the edge honed at 30 degrees or so (depending on use), again to reduce sharpening time.
No need to provide the hollow on anything but a true wedge razor, that's when there is a spine and a bevel after all.
I think convex stones just add some complexity to honing with minimal or no actual difference in use.
Again, I'd not bother to comment on what looks like attitude on the internet, too many trolls aready, no need to feed them.
Is this the same guy who had the convex arks for sale? I got one of those years ago and didn’t see any real benefit vs my other stones. I remember he was saying it was the best thing since sliced bread but it didn’t seem to catch on.
To see him so upset over someone else’s opinion is just sad. Not everything works the same for everyone.
To see him so upset over someone else’s opinion is just sad. Not everything works the same for everyone.
Yes, it's a conversation you can't win. If you try it and say you didn't see a difference you get accused of doing it wrong, being a liar, not having travelled enough, having a small mental ..... or some sort of a combination of those. I am probably missing some more insults.
It’s a shame. For all the good reasons @psfred gave re chisels, it might be nice to have some coarse to medium convex stones to treat the razor a bit more like a tool and in good overall shape behind the edge, helping reduce the time needed on the flat stones. I think I’d be very hard pressed to hone to the actual apex reproducibly on convex stones. But keeping it thin and flexible behind the edge could make it feel overall more like new.
Also, I have never seen anyone go to the lengths this proprietor does to prep for a shave, or to treat the skin after. Maybe I’m just too new around here but I have one soap and one aftershave cream. Das it.
Also, I have never seen anyone go to the lengths this proprietor does to prep for a shave, or to treat the skin after. Maybe I’m just too new around here but I have one soap and one aftershave cream. Das it.
Well of course he uses lots of products. They are products he sells, and the videos are his advertising. If he is going to spend half an hour ranting he might as well get a few plugs in.
Also, razors already have the hollow that people try to grind into a chisel bevel. That's why they are called hollow ground razors, and were developed as an improvement to a wedge. They are easier to hone and thinner behind the edge that way already, without the need for a thinned concave secondary bevel (the obvious negative side effect of which could be decreased edge retention and durability)
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There’s some fuel for the fire!
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
I’m skipping convex hones and learning to hone left handed to take advantage of the coming trend! Take a look at the ’certificate’ lol.
www.sharpeningsupplies.com
Sharpening Supplies Left-Handed Sharpening Stones
April 1, 2024: Introducing the Revolutionary Left-Handed Sharpening Stones!
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Apologies to the lefties, I think that they’re trolling another ‘entity’, lol.
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