Hi, my name is ErieSurfer and...

[ErieSurfer]

...I own a made-in-Mexico Norton 4k/8k water stone.

I understand that many folks don't care for the 8k side for a variety of reasons. But the fact is that the money was spent years ago, there is little demand for used examples of this product, and I'd like to get some utility out of the 8k side. I'm a little afraid of the 4k side being soft and I'm going to ignore it for now.

If the 8k designation were ignored and that surface was used with the expectations of a JIS 5k stone, do you think it would be suitable for that purpose? I have no other synthetic stones to use for comparison. A King 1200 would precede it and a King 8k would follow it.

I've used it twice in the 5k role and the results have been workable, but not thrilling. Perhaps I'm asking too much of this stone?

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“Perhaps I'm asking too much of this stone?”

Nope.

For many years when the Norton’s were the rage 25-30 years ago, we all shaved off Norton 8k edges, just fine.

I recently honed a razor on my thin, (seen a Lot of razors) Norton 8k just for fun and it shaved well, as does the edge off a King 6k.

Don’t believe everything you read about “stone Grit” or mis-labeled stones. Yes, some newer 8k’s can produce a near mirror bevel and a bit straighter edge, but a Norton 8k is a very shaveable edge, when honed properly.

Finish on a bit of paste or good Flax, Hemp strop and you can get a very good shaving edge.

The Norton 4k is also a good stone, not to be overlooked and unless the edge has some damage it will easily set a bevel without a deep 1k stria pattern. The 4k to 8k is an easy jump.

The King stones are also fine stone, you can bevel set easily with the 800-1200 stones. I have most all the stones from all the big makers and typically use the King 800, 6k, SG10k and finish on Jnats or Arks.

Google (My Second Try at Honing) A new honer’s post honing an eBay beater, with Norton 1k,4,8 and Super Stone 12k, with great micrographs of his bevels and edges though the whole process.

Make your bevels look like his at each stone. Cake!

This is what a Norton 8k bevel and edge should look like.

 

[DrStrange]

I have no problems using the Norton(4/8)K.

I use it under running water,
so I don't soak it
and then the difference in permeability of the two sides doesn't matter.

Translated into Naniwa grit ratings, the stone would be about (2.5/5)K
and I have no trouble fitting that into a honing progression.

Also, the softer side is good.
The hardness is good for what that stone is supposed to.

 

[Kyle89]

I use the 8k side of mine still from time to time. Perfectly usable stone. I think the last time I used it I followed it up with a Coticule and got a nice edge. I like how the stone feels. It’s too expensive though in my opinion.

 

[Legion]

I started with one, they were the fashion at the time, and it worked fine for me. I didn't shave off the 8k, I followed it with a natural stone or pasted strop, but the 4,8 worked in the progression.

I know now that there are better stones available, but if someone can't make the Norton work the problem is probably not the stone.

 

[DrStrange]

My first good full progression that really worked, was:

Naniwa 1K
Norton 4/8
coticule
ILR

What did you hone today?

Thiers Issard bevel repair on the 2k. Razor had ran into some bad slurry from a freshly conditioned tomo (think some diamonds might of been stuck in the tomo and came off in the slurry). Tried to fix it on the spotted coticule with slurry - bevel appeared good under the scope. Went to the...

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[SliceOfLife]

Nortons aren't bad, they just cost the same/almost the same as better Japanese stones. I'd never bother with one, but I like Diamond plates in that grit for razors and Harder stones for anything heavier than a razor. When I tried them, they fell somewhere between the $10-20 Chinese whetstones and the $50-100 Japanese brands.

The hate on Nortons mostly comes from another forum where the admins ran a webstore selling Nortons... and they insisted in discussions of hones that their Norton starter set was all the hones you need and Nortons were better finishers than Coticules, etc, etc, etc. Folks that mentioned Coticules as a better finisher than a Norton 8k or Japanese stones as even an option were banned.

 

[ErieSurfer]

Let me adjust my question.

If you consider all of the 5k stones that you have used, do you believe that the the Norton 8k is capable of producing a result no less desirable than the other 5k stones? BTW, a given stone's ability to produce the result is the only criteria; greater or fewer laps is of no consequence.

Is the 8k prone to rogue scratches or randomly releasing abrasive that fouls an edge and takes you backwards? Remember, my stone is the later-era made-in-Mexico vintage.

 

[ErieSurfer]

Nortons aren't bad, they just cost the same/almost the same as better Japanese stones. ...

I get that, but the money was spent years ago and the stone is already in the house. My interests lie in naturals and the only need for synthetics is for ongoing evaluation of naturals. If the consensus indicates that the Norton does a marginal job as a 5k, then I'll have to go shopping for one that can do the job. I would just be happier if I didn't need to buy another synthetic.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Let me adjust my question.

If you consider all of the 5k stones that you have used, do you believe that the the Norton 8k is capable of producing a result no less desirable than the other 5k stones? BTW, a given stone's ability to produce the result is the only criteria; greater or fewer laps is of no consequence.

Is the 8k prone to rogue scratches or randomly releasing abrasive that fouls an edge and takes you backwards? Remember, my stone is the later-era made-in-Mexico vintage.

No. Most good quality 5k JIS stones will have tighter grit range and finer average grit size... so the finish should be slightly superior to a Norton. A Norton is closer to a 4k JIS (not many brands make this grit I don't think), and honestly a better comparison would probably be a 3k or 3500 grit JIS than a 5k.

Again, doesn't make it a bad stone; but a shave off a Naniwa 5k is better than a shave off a Norton 8k.


BUT... most decent finishers are just fine off a Norton 8k. I wouldn't waste my money buying a 5k JIS to follow a Norton 8k, certainly. Maybe something like the 8k snow-whatever stone? Not really my specialty. I go to all my finishers of a DMT 8k, which is rated the same as a Norton 8k without any problems.

If you HAVE a norton 8k and you're asking "do I need a better prefinisher", the answer, in my experience, is no. Norton should do fine. Just keep it flat and clean.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I would just be happier if I didn't need to buy another synthetic.

I can feel this sentiment in my bones. I would say you're good. Buy your naturals and you'll do fine. If you decide some day to upgrade the Norton, cool... but you shouldn't NEED to in order to get good results.

 

[DrStrange]

I don't see anything in the replies suggesting that you should get a new 5K.

 

[Christian1212]

I would say if you are getting the results you want then it is fine. I also used the 4k/8k to 12k naniwa combo for a while. Really depends on what you are finishing with.

If going to a coticule or nagura progression it is probably fine. If going to a finishing ark/high synthetic I would consider a new stone or two.

 

[Gamma]

When I realized the Norton 8k was more of an equivalent to a 5k JIS stone, I started using it as a 5k and following it with a Naniwa SS 8k. This annoyed too many people to count because the Norton 8K was "all you need" according to the obnoxious majority.
That plan worked out ok for what my palette could discern at that time.
Those stones can have a weird/unique finger print on the bevel but I could use it.
Never liked the feel so I eventually got a Nani SS 5k.
Sold all of the above and moved to Naniwa Choseras which, at the time, were labeled as superfluous and unnecessary by the know it all geezers who were bored with yelling at kids to get off their lawn.

 

[ErieSurfer]

I purchased a quality straight edge so that I might have a good reference for flatness. The straight edge doesn't touch my stones, though. The straight edge is a reference for truing my generic steel rulers, and the rulers touch the stones. I'm writing this because it relates to my intended use for synthetics.

While I did recently use the King 1.2k/Norton 8k/King 8k progression as a threshold for finishers, that arrangement isn't part of my longer-term goal. My near-term goal is to hone some razors (and I have a bundle to choose from) to the best representative versions of 1.2k/5k/8k so that I can use those as reference razors to (long-term goal) compare to edges coming off of unknown, unlabeled natural stones that I have found in fields, road cuts, and freeway rest stops in places like Wyoming, Utah, South Dakota, and Massachusetts. Given the way I've been traveling for work, more unknown stones are likely in my future.

So, when I thought about the synthetics that I have on hand, I could not recall anyone here saying that the King 1/1.2k or 8k did a BAD job of hitting those honing thresholds. I found that the low-grit Kings are disliked for being muddy/soft and requiring more lapping, but I didn't find anyone writing that those stones failed to achieve their purpose. I didn't read of anyone disparaging the King 8k.

So that just left the Norton 8k...and some doubt in my mind...and thus the creation of this thread.

... Most good quality 5k JIS stones will have tighter grit range and finer average grit size...

A tighter grit range...I'll be thinking about that over the next couple of days. A not-so-tight grit range in the Norton 8k might explain some of what I was seeing when using it recently.

 

[Koop]

Grit range...this vid gives an excellent explanation of synthetic grit ranges. This.

 

[JPO]

A tighter grit range...I'll be thinking about that over the next couple of days. A not-so-tight grit range in the Norton 8k might explain some of what I was seeing when using it recently.

Using the 4k side of the Norton might make the transition to the 8k easier then jumping from a bevel setter.
Using a soft stone does not need to be an issue if you are more careful with your pressure.
The naniwa hayabusa 4000 is quite soft, but still a capable razor hone if you like the feedback.

Inconsistency seen in the scratch pattern after the 8k Norton might just be deeper striations that are revealed from the previous stones.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

First, “Dead Flat” is a myth, a stone does not need to be dead flat to hone a razor. No harm in getting a stone flat-er but, obsessing about flatness will not make honing any better, but they are your stones.

And if you did make your stones dead flat, they are no longer “dead flat” after the first lap.

If you want to compare a natural stone to a synthetic, just hone the razor with an 8k, draw a line in the middle of the razor from the spine to the edge with a sharpie.

Now hone the toe half of the razor and keep the mid-line on the edge of the stone, heel half hanging off the stone. Now you can easily compare the finish off of both stones side by side. The unknown grit stone is finer than an 8k or not.

BTW, do this test with your Norton 8k and your King 8k, I doubt you will find much difference in the performance.

Do your Norton 8k bevels and edges look like the bevel posted in post 2?

If not, the issue is not the stone.

 

[ErieSurfer]

When I realized the Norton 8k was more of an equivalent to a 5k JIS stone, I started using it as a 5k and following it with a Naniwa SS 8k. This annoyed too many people to count because the Norton 8K was "all you need" according to the obnoxious majority.
That plan worked out ok for what my palette could discern at that time.
Those stones can have a weird/unique finger print on the bevel but I could use it.
Never liked the feel so I eventually got a Nani SS 5k.
Sold all of the above and moved to Naniwa Choseras which, at the time, were labeled as superfluous and unnecessary by the know it all geezers who were bored with yelling at kids to get off their lawn.

Have you held onto the Choseras?

 

[ErieSurfer]

Grit range...this vid gives an excellent explanation of synthetic grit ranges. This.

Thank you for that. He's measured and patient in presenting his thoughts.

Did you catch him briefly speak about the idea of satisfying the JIS 1k spec by using a mix of 8 and 16 micron media? It gave me a chuckle. He was pretty sly with it.