This is simply not true!
Help with my progression: Naniwa Chocera 3k,5k and Shapton Kuromaku 12k
- Thread starter esmoquin97
- Start date
I never understand questions like this
I have 3 stones
I will not buy more stones
Will they work for me?
No one here can really answer that for you, except you. No one here knows how well you hone and what sort of edge will satisfy you.
Your grit assessments are off. Shapton 5k and Nani 5k are very very similar in particle size, I would say impossible to discern a particle size difference between them without special tools, certainly not by feel alone.
Shapton 12k is under 1 µm. Nani 12k is thought to be close enough. It's not just a particle size only thing though. If you know how to hone then a Nani 10k can be improved on by a Shapton 12k and the Nani 12 might just seem to edge it out.
In this scenario, what matters most is how well the 3k work was done and to be honest, if your bevel wasn't set correctly prior to the 3k, by whoever honed it originally, then every thing that follows is a moot point.
Yeah, a bevel can be set on a 3k but if there is a lot of work to do I'd rather use a coarser stone. And the condition of the bevel is key - king, actually. No bevel = no edge.
Going from the Chosera 5k, approx 2.8 µm stone to an approximately 1 µm stone is asking a lot of the 5k that perhaps might be out of your wheelhouse and if the 3k work was sketch then it could easily be a bust. An ideal jump is typically smaller that that.
Me, personally, I've always felt that the 8k JIS step (approx 2µm) was critical to finalizing the bevel refinement process.
Some people tell all sorts of stories about what works and doesn't work for them though.
Everyone is different and the internet is full of stories.
Can the 3k, 5k, 12k process be done? Sure. Who will like the results?
No one knows for sure.
I'd guess that a razor honed 3k, 8k, 12k, isn't going to pass muster here. Actually, I don't have to guess so I'll just say it won't.
But anyone else might feel differently.
And if you're not going to buy more stones, then that set up has to work for you. So there's that.
I have 3 stones
I will not buy more stones
Will they work for me?
No one here can really answer that for you, except you. No one here knows how well you hone and what sort of edge will satisfy you.
Your grit assessments are off. Shapton 5k and Nani 5k are very very similar in particle size, I would say impossible to discern a particle size difference between them without special tools, certainly not by feel alone.
Shapton 12k is under 1 µm. Nani 12k is thought to be close enough. It's not just a particle size only thing though. If you know how to hone then a Nani 10k can be improved on by a Shapton 12k and the Nani 12 might just seem to edge it out.
In this scenario, what matters most is how well the 3k work was done and to be honest, if your bevel wasn't set correctly prior to the 3k, by whoever honed it originally, then every thing that follows is a moot point.
Yeah, a bevel can be set on a 3k but if there is a lot of work to do I'd rather use a coarser stone. And the condition of the bevel is key - king, actually. No bevel = no edge.
Going from the Chosera 5k, approx 2.8 µm stone to an approximately 1 µm stone is asking a lot of the 5k that perhaps might be out of your wheelhouse and if the 3k work was sketch then it could easily be a bust. An ideal jump is typically smaller that that.
Me, personally, I've always felt that the 8k JIS step (approx 2µm) was critical to finalizing the bevel refinement process.
Some people tell all sorts of stories about what works and doesn't work for them though.
Everyone is different and the internet is full of stories.
Can the 3k, 5k, 12k process be done? Sure. Who will like the results?
No one knows for sure.
I'd guess that a razor honed 3k, 8k, 12k, isn't going to pass muster here. Actually, I don't have to guess so I'll just say it won't.
But anyone else might feel differently.
And if you're not going to buy more stones, then that set up has to work for you. So there's that.
You need to mentally delete what you know about pressure from knife sharpening when you apply it to straight razors-particularly full hollows. The bevel setter is the most important stone here far and away, after that I would say the lower midrange as a lot of people are terribly lazy on the 3/5 level and don't do enough clean up from the bevel set. If you get all that done well, and it isn't to your satisfaction after the 12, you may have to buy a block of paste and charge a piece of balsa or a scrap of leather. I've never gone straight to the 12 pro as I have the 8, but a well done 12 pro edge shaves fine if you like synth edges. A huge amount of the final sharpness of straight razors rests on bevel execution.
Mostly agree except the Shapton Kuromaku 12K bit. Mine was a dude, but unfortunately it was the very FIRST high grit stone I bought. Never thought of that until I got 2 sets of Naniwas, 2 sets of Shaptons and 1 set of Kings and finally had some time to do some controlled tests. So the Kuromaku 12K started my shopping spree but it did not stop there, picked up Junpaku and Fuji recently and is still eyeing Suehiro Kouseki, Maido and Gokumyo.
Any of my sets work for me NOW, except the Shapton Kuromaku 12K. But none worked as good as they do now, some were nowhere I expected in the first place. They did not work well, mostly because my skill wasn't there. If I some how picked the Naniwa Arata or Kagayaki serials to start with, it mgiht be a completely different story. But as you mentioned, who knows for sure. Shapton Kuromaku 12K is highly regardly by lots of people, but mine was for sure off spec. Such is actually part of the fun.
In reality, my Shapton 12k finish shaves as well as any Nani SS 12k finish would provide. Or close enough to where it doesn't matter really. No one has to agree with that, because, well - it's an objective fact based on long term personal experience, and a fairly large sample size of hones on the bench.
Have owned and used 5 different 12k superstones. Have owned and used 3-4 12k/15k Shaptons.
In use, the Export 15k is identical to the Kuro 12k.
Have discussed those stones with Both Naniwa and Shapton.
The particle sizes of those two 12k stones are extremely close, numerically. That's a fact, so no one needs to agree with it but the facts stand.
The difference between those two 12k stone, particle size wise, puts them in, effectively, in the same slot. While I no longer have any Super Stones, I do still have my Shapton 12k though and for good reason. If I believed the SS 12k was sooo much better I woulda kept it. But it isn't and I didn't. Made that decision after many many side by side comparisons with several different examples.
Over the years I've run into many people with dud stones from both brands - other bands also. Early on, the Shapton Pro stones were plaged with issues. FWIW, I owned a dud 12k SS myself. Two actually but one was salvageable with an extreme lapping event. Ive also run into too many users that insist on honing on the 12k for 60-70 laps after the same on an 8k; opinions coming from that milieu don't interest me. And, naturally, there are going to be examples of either 12k that don't measure up, and then there are also going to be different skill sets where some users perform better with one than other.
The point of my original comment though, wasn't about finding someone/s to agree or argue with me.
The points (there were two)
1 - If the ground work is not good then the edge will be awful and what you use after that won't matter.
2 - Unless someone actually uses the stones in question, extensively, continuously, over and over again side by sdie, etc, then they have no idea how either of them stack up. Reading forum posts doesn't make anyone an expert and doesn't provide any skills needed to be successful at honing a shave ready edge.. Anyone saying 'they know' one brand's xyz stone is markedly finer or coarser than another brand's 'xyz stone' without having actually done the work, learned the real lessons (as opposed to bro-science), discussed the stones with the people that made them, etc - they're starting off going the wrong way. It isn't about what I think or some brainwashed simp from a knife forum thinks - What it boils down to is this; if OP has a 3k, 5k, 12k set up - and is not going to buy any more stones, not ever; The OP should just get the steel on the rocks and see how far he can go with it. Maybe he likes it, maybe not. Anyone can guess which way the wind will blow here but no one really knows for sure beforehand. Guessing and being right isn't 'knowing' - its just guessing.
When I got into honing, people were finishing on the 8k Norton religiously, which is a 5k JIS stone. Didn't work for me but others swore by that finish.
FWIW the 5k Nani SS is a fraction of a µm finer than the N8k. So someone loving a Norton 8k finish could possibly be good-to-go with the OPs 3k, 5k, 12k progression. OP won't know until he tries.
Have owned and used 5 different 12k superstones. Have owned and used 3-4 12k/15k Shaptons.
In use, the Export 15k is identical to the Kuro 12k.
Have discussed those stones with Both Naniwa and Shapton.
The particle sizes of those two 12k stones are extremely close, numerically. That's a fact, so no one needs to agree with it but the facts stand.
The difference between those two 12k stone, particle size wise, puts them in, effectively, in the same slot. While I no longer have any Super Stones, I do still have my Shapton 12k though and for good reason. If I believed the SS 12k was sooo much better I woulda kept it. But it isn't and I didn't. Made that decision after many many side by side comparisons with several different examples.
Over the years I've run into many people with dud stones from both brands - other bands also. Early on, the Shapton Pro stones were plaged with issues. FWIW, I owned a dud 12k SS myself. Two actually but one was salvageable with an extreme lapping event. Ive also run into too many users that insist on honing on the 12k for 60-70 laps after the same on an 8k; opinions coming from that milieu don't interest me. And, naturally, there are going to be examples of either 12k that don't measure up, and then there are also going to be different skill sets where some users perform better with one than other.
The point of my original comment though, wasn't about finding someone/s to agree or argue with me.
The points (there were two)
1 - If the ground work is not good then the edge will be awful and what you use after that won't matter.
2 - Unless someone actually uses the stones in question, extensively, continuously, over and over again side by sdie, etc, then they have no idea how either of them stack up. Reading forum posts doesn't make anyone an expert and doesn't provide any skills needed to be successful at honing a shave ready edge.. Anyone saying 'they know' one brand's xyz stone is markedly finer or coarser than another brand's 'xyz stone' without having actually done the work, learned the real lessons (as opposed to bro-science), discussed the stones with the people that made them, etc - they're starting off going the wrong way. It isn't about what I think or some brainwashed simp from a knife forum thinks - What it boils down to is this; if OP has a 3k, 5k, 12k set up - and is not going to buy any more stones, not ever; The OP should just get the steel on the rocks and see how far he can go with it. Maybe he likes it, maybe not. Anyone can guess which way the wind will blow here but no one really knows for sure beforehand. Guessing and being right isn't 'knowing' - its just guessing.
When I got into honing, people were finishing on the 8k Norton religiously, which is a 5k JIS stone. Didn't work for me but others swore by that finish.
FWIW the 5k Nani SS is a fraction of a µm finer than the N8k. So someone loving a Norton 8k finish could possibly be good-to-go with the OPs 3k, 5k, 12k progression. OP won't know until he tries.
My experience with the Korumaku 12k is that it is VERY hard, and will retain surface texture after flattening for quite a while. I'm experimenting with burnishing it after flattening with another very hard stone, and find the 'finger feel' goes from rough to very smooth, more what I expect from a fine grit stone.
It seems to act a lot like a hard Arkansas stone where the surface texture determines the fineness for the cutting action, at least for a while. Flattening with a 325 DMT makes it act much coarser than it's actual grit rating until it gets smoothed off with use. In the mean time, you get lots of scratches on the bevel and probably microchips.
It seems to act a lot like a hard Arkansas stone where the surface texture determines the fineness for the cutting action, at least for a while. Flattening with a 325 DMT makes it act much coarser than it's actual grit rating until it gets smoothed off with use. In the mean time, you get lots of scratches on the bevel and probably microchips.
