Glock Perfection: Even More Perfect? We Shall See.

[OkieStubble]

$$ Same here! Of course, I was looking at the lower, forward set, profile and wondering about the logistics of swiping a stovepipe out of the way. I know I can with the 407c... Probably geezer overthinking!

Lol’d. I research and over think everything! It’s the geezer way!

 

[OkieStubble]

And this right here is why I don't do Glocks, Rob. I honestly don't hate them... Really! I DO hate that when I drive them out they are pointing up hill whether irons or dots.

It’s definitely weird and perplexing. Glock open sights seem to point fine for me. It’s only when I put the top down on the convertible dot and then I can’t point it like I’m not cross eyed?

 

[nortac]

It’s definitely weird and perplexing. Glock open sights seem to point fine for me. It’s only when I put the top down on the convertible dot and then I can’t point it like I’m not cross eyed?

Not sure that I understand this analogy???

 

[OkieStubble]

Not sure that I understand this analogy???

In other words, if I can draw a Glock from the holster and immediately present it and my eyes can automatically pick up the iron sights on target, shouldn’t the red dot do the same since it is co-witnessed with the iron sight?

 

[nortac]

With Glocks I find that even though my iron sights are not naturally aligned upon presentation, it is immediately apparent and quickly corrected. Not so with the RDS, time wasted searching for the dot.

 

[nortac]

Also, when I had my RMR mounted on my Glock 19, the mounting plate utilized the rear sight dovetail, so there was no rear iron sight and no co-witnessing with the RDS. If one has an optics ready slide, with the RDS forward of the rear sight, I suspect the co-witness of irons to dot would most likely be lower third and not absolute?? Perhaps with suppressor height sights it would be better? I'm very interested to hear @Rob72 experience with how the Dueck mount with it's integral front and rear sights works out as far as rapid acquisition of the dot goes.

 

[nortac]

@rob 72, had you tried using an RDS on your Glock prior to getting the Dueck mount? Just wondering if you'd be able to compare the experience of using a RDS with and without the Dueck mount with regards to ease of dot acquisition.

 

[DesertIguana]

Maybe I am wrong but Glock has gone the way of Kimber. Always introducing something new to drive sales.

The two calibers I fell Glock should have not done were .357 Sig., and .45 GAP.

Both pricy rounds that new became mainstream.

 

[dojpros]

A little late to the party and some ramble/minor thread drift follows.

I. General thoughts re the Glock Super Clone- Shadow Systems 920.

A. I l know just enough to be dangerous re these platforms. My bottom line if that the gun runs without issue for a few hundred rounds of ball and a 100 rounds of carry with the mags I was going to use ( magpul or OEM), rock on. You work hard for the money and you deserve it.

I have wondered from the pure value POV would a trip down the M&P 2.0 with Apex trigger bits be a more economical way to go but I am so far down the Glock rabbit hole that remains unlikely unless I could get some meaningful trigger time behind my proposed set up.

I am very interested in hearing your feedback after you have run the gun hard in training/at a class etc. Your positive experiences may move me away from OEM lowers etc as I have some uppers that need homes.

B. Mounting a Holosun

I am running a 507 direct milled Holosun on an OEM frakengun (OEM upper mated with a OEM lower that did not start off life together.) See initial thoughts at the link below. 12/23-still happy with the set up.

My RDS EDC Journey to Date- Cautiously Optimistic

My RDS Journey-apologies for any formatting issues as I typed it out first on a couple of different platforms. LONG, LONG RAMBLE FOLLOWS: In the last few months, due to the encouragement and generosity of two PF members, I am presently on the cusp of carrying a Gen 3 G17 Direct milled Upper...

www.badgerandblade.com

I like the open emitter and believe it is easier to pick up the dot relative to the closed emitter Acro P2 I am running on a G22.
For my CCW/EDC purposes the open emitter is tough enough given its direct milled mounting. The reported use of deep screws relative to an OEM slide bode well as many installs on an OEM slide ultimately require the filling off of a few threads so as to not interfere with any internals at the very margins.

C. RDS equipment in general
Based on my personal experience and the that of multiple trainers and agencies with whom I interface- Trijicon/Holosun and Aimpoint are ready for primetime, Leopold/Sig/Steiner are close and then there is everybody else.

I reject out of hand any optic that requires its removal to change the battery i.e. Trijicon RMR.
I reject out of hand the use of plates relative to direct milling as they are simply an avoidable point of failure. I fully acknowledge that this is an easy position for me to take because I do not have to buy/feed/maintain a whole fleet of guns relative to many agencies.

D. Clearing a stovepipe with an RDS
On the front end, use good ammo with good mags in a clean and well lubricated gun with a 0-3000 rd recoil spring and the "chance" for a stove pipe goes way down. IF you get one you can swipe it hard and probably clear it just like you would before. If the RDS is mounted properly it really should not be an issue. Be advised you could still cut the crap out of hand.


E. Shooting RDS v Iron sights

For folks who have 10s of thousands of rounds honing hard focus front sight, they may have difficulty transitioning to the TARGET FOCUS nature of an RDS.

The colleterial desire to "stop the dot" before pressing the trigger can cost the shooter lots of time.

Three drills I picked up in a recent agency RDS transition class can really drive the point home re how "stopped" the dot has to be before a good shot can be had.
1. the parallax drill (where the dot goes the shot goes)-put the dot at the edge of the optic and pull the trigger. Move the dot along the edge like a clock hand and repeat. Note the relative tightness of the group at 5-7 yards.

2. The occluded optics demo (bracket the target with the optic in the high center chest and press the trigger). If you are target focused, the dot will simply be where it needs to be.

3 The basketball drill (if your marksmanship fundamentals are solid and current, you can press the trigger as fast as you are able and still hold 8.5 x 11 (collarbone to xiphoid, nipple to nipple) at 5-7 yards despite the fact the dots is bouncing like a basketball. Indeed, some folks were holding more like the 5ish inch circle of the black on a B8

In all three, the student was given tangible and real time feedback re the capabilities and limitation of a PMO and its interface with a shooter’s core marksmanship skills.

On some level we know that the front sight we think we used to stop is not really so, we can just see the movement so much more distinctly with an RDS

No doubt that an RDS will reveal sloppiness in the presentation. IMHO, that can be somewhat ameliorated when we are target focused and just superimpose the dot on the target knowing that if we press cleanly, the shot will be there despite the fact that the dot is not rock frozen.

 

[Waistgunner]

For me, it's pretty simple. Less is more! Factory glock red fiber optic front sight. Anything more is just wasted resources for me. No batteries, no nothing. Just good sight alignment and sight picture. It has worked for me over 40 years. But, that's just me. It doesn't work for everyone.

 

[OkieStubble]

A little late to the party and some ramble/minor thread drift follows.

I. General thoughts re the Glock Super Clone- Shadow Systems 920.

A. I l know just enough to be dangerous re these platforms. My bottom line if that the gun runs without issue for a few hundred rounds of ball and a 100 rounds of carry with the mags I was going to use ( magpul or OEM), rock on. You work hard for the money and you deserve it.

I have wondered from the pure value POV would a trip down the M&P 2.0 with Apex trigger bits be a more economical way to go but I am so far down the Glock rabbit hole that remains unlikely unless I could get some meaningful trigger time behind my proposed set up.

I am very interested in hearing your feedback after you have run the gun hard in training/at a class etc. Your positive experiences may move me away from OEM lowers etc as I have some uppers that need homes.

B. Mounting a Holosun

I am running a 507 direct milled Holosun on an OEM frakengun (OEM upper mated with a OEM lower that did not start off life together.) See initial thoughts at the link below. 12/23-still happy with the set up.

My RDS EDC Journey to Date- Cautiously Optimistic

My RDS Journey-apologies for any formatting issues as I typed it out first on a couple of different platforms. LONG, LONG RAMBLE FOLLOWS: In the last few months, due to the encouragement and generosity of two PF members, I am presently on the cusp of carrying a Gen 3 G17 Direct milled Upper...

www.badgerandblade.com

I like the open emitter and believe it is easier to pick up the dot relative to the closed emitter Acro P2 I am running on a G22.
For my CCW/EDC purposes the open emitter is tough enough given its direct milled mounting. The reported use of deep screws relative to an OEM slide bode well as many installs on an OEM slide ultimately require the filling off of a few threads so as to not interfere with any internals at the very margins.

C. RDS equipment in general
Based on my personal experience and the that of multiple trainers and agencies with whom I interface- Trijicon/Holosun and Aimpoint are ready for primetime, Leopold/Sig/Steiner are close and then there is everybody else.

I reject out of hand any optic that requires its removal to change the battery i.e. Trijicon RMR.
I reject out of hand the use of plates relative to direct milling as they are simply an avoidable point of failure. I fully acknowledge that this is an easy position for me to take because I do not have to buy/feed/maintain a whole fleet of guns relative to many agencies.

D. Clearing a stovepipe with an RDS
On the front end, use good ammo with good mags in a clean and well lubricated gun with a 0-3000 rd recoil spring and the "chance" for a stove pipe goes way down. IF you get one you can swipe it hard and probably clear it just like you would before. If the RDS is mounted properly it really should not be an issue. Be advised you could still cut the crap out of hand.


E. Shooting RDS v Iron sights

For folks who have 10s of thousands of rounds honing hard focus front sight, they may have difficulty transitioning to the TARGET FOCUS nature of an RDS.

The colleterial desire to "stop the dot" before pressing the trigger can cost the shooter lots of time.

Three drills I picked up in a recent agency RDS transition class can really drive the point home re how "stopped" the dot has to be before a good shot can be had.
1. the parallax drill (where the dot goes the shot goes)-put the dot at the edge of the optic and pull the trigger. Move the dot along the edge like a clock hand and repeat. Note the relative tightness of the group at 5-7 yards.

2. The occluded optics demo (bracket the target with the optic in the high center chest and press the trigger). If you are target focused, the dot will simply be where it needs to be.

3 The basketball drill (if your marksmanship fundamentals are solid and current, you can press the trigger as fast as you are able and still hold 8.5 x 11 (collarbone to xiphoid, nipple to nipple) at 5-7 yards despite the fact the dots is bouncing like a basketball. Indeed, some folks were holding more like the 5ish inch circle of the black on a B8

In all three, the student was given tangible and real time feedback re the capabilities and limitation of a PMO and its interface with a shooter’s core marksmanship skills.

On some level we know that the front sight we think we used to stop is not really so, we can just see the movement so much more distinctly with an RDS

No doubt that an RDS will reveal sloppiness in the presentation. IMHO, that can be somewhat ameliorated when we are target focused and just superimpose the dot on the target knowing that if we press cleanly, the shot will be there despite the fact that the dot is not rock frozen.

Awesome post David!

Lots of excellent tips and great advice that I will learn from and follow as I attempt to navigate to a red dot for a serious carry Pistol.

I am one of those old skool guys who will need to transition from that front sight hard focus to target focus.

I even caught myself many times when we were shooting the .22 pistol thread and I would instinctively try to stop that Vortex red dot from shaking and taking to much time before pressing the shot trying to get that dot still.

I definitely have a lot of training ahead. I always preach on here about getting a lot of pistol practice in with an empty pistol and snap at home. It really helps a lot with iron sights and then transitioning to live fire at the range and I hope it will do the same for the green dot In getting.

I’m hoping the Holosun SCS320 I’ll be mounting, while it is an enclosed emitter, it’s not as boxy shaped or as deep from back to front lenses as the Aimpoint Acro. Hopefully the ease of picking up its dot will be somewhere between an Acro and a 507.

I go into the hospital this Thursday and will be discharged somewhere around the next Thursday and then a few weeks of recovery time.

But when I can finally get the SS MR920 to the range, I plan to put a case of 9mm thru it right at the jump. Manual says to give it a 200 round break in period where Ibwoll sight in the iron sights and Holosun and then I will give it a quick field strip and clean right after the 200 and then put another 800 FMJ thru it.

This should be a good first time range session. It came with two MagPul PMags, but I have plenty of Glock OEMs I will always use if and when I decide to ever carry it.

While I have owned and used many a Pmag over the years they have always worked 100% in my Glocks, but I have never carried a Pmag in a Glock. I have heard of a couple of reviews where Shadow System owners have said the magazine button cut outs in the MagPul’s are not deep enough and there have been a few mag drops while at the range.

I probably have collected 15-18 OEM G19 magazines over the years from owning Gen2-Gen4 19’s, so no problems with carrying only OEM in the SS.

If and when I can get thru this initial range visit with the SS, my next range visit will be a few 20 round boxes of Federal HST’s, Golden Saber, Winchester SXT’s Sig and Browning HP’s just to see if the SS will eat everything like my Glocks do. But I will also put 2- or 300 rounds of Gold Dot thru it, just because it’s what I mostly keep stocked up on and prefer it for carry.

If it gets thru this, I then will need to work on myself in order to carry a RDS. I know several younger kiddo’s who came up thru the ranks under me over the years, who all have their instructor certifications and all carry pistol optics. It’s actually kinda hard now, finding a police officer who doesn’t carry a red dot.

 

[nikonNUT]

"The colleterial desire to "stop the dot" before pressing the trigger can cost the shooter lots of time."

Embrace the wobble! Stole that from Sage Dynamics BTW but its true.

 

[Rob72]

@nortac, I spent a good while behind the Docters, early on, prior to the widespread availability of suppressor height sights. I agree with all of David's observations, particularly the difficulty in focus transition.

My experience was that once I quit chasing and could "accept" allowing the dot to not be centered, but still being "cover-kill", I became faster & more accurate.

My understanding (not personal experience) is that standard suppressor sights will give you lower 1/3 witness, and this seems consistent with the Dueck mount. I have seen milling services offered to deliver lower 1/3 with stock heights & mid-witness with suppressor height.

Dryfire with the Dueck is, "reassuring," I would say. Its a good transition from irons back to the dot system. The 407c is a comparatively small window, so you lose some lower view space, but no different than a milled slide with suppressor sights. I generally can't use black sights, but the 1000 lumens from the TLR gives more than adequate backwash, and w/o the light in indoor daylight the green dot easily dominates the view.

I don't expect any surprises. I'm in at roughly 1/3 the cost of a complete milled upper to ~1/4 the cost of a new, dot enabled, pistol. If I want or need to change back, out comes the sight pusher.

 

[nortac]

Thanks @Rob72 , my problem is not so much not accepting an off center dot, but in finding the dot at all. I wonder if being right handed but left eye dominant complicates the finding of the dot? If I'm shooting relatively slow fire bullseye, I force myself to use my non-dominant right eye, but for defensive/action shooting I use my left eye, both eyes open. I need a sight with the large 100-120 MOA circle to guide me in finding the dot, for sure.

 

[Rob72]

Thanks @Rob72 , my problem is not so much not accepting an off center dot, but in finding the dot at all. I wonder if being right handed but left eye dominant complicates the finding of the dot? If I'm shooting relatively slow fire bullseye, I force myself to use my non-dominant right eye, but for defensive/action shooting I use my left eye, both eyes open. I need a sight with the large 100-120 MOA circle to guide me in finding the dot, for sure.

Loooook, shopper! Holosun Green multi-reticle.

32MOA doesn't sound like much, but it will definitely draw your eyes.

 

[OkieStubble]

Thanks @Rob72 , my problem is not so much not accepting an off center dot, but in finding the dot at all. I wonder if being right handed but left eye dominant complicates the finding of the dot? If I'm shooting relatively slow fire bullseye, I force myself to use my non-dominant right eye, but for defensive/action shooting I use my left eye, both eyes open. I need a sight with the large 100-120 MOA circle to guide me in finding the dot, for sure.

No way to know if it’s cross eye dominance or the Glocks 22 degree grip angle unless you spend sometime under a dot with a different grip angle?

Its Gonna suck for me when I get my RDS mounted to the SS with its 1911 grip angle and find I’m still having trouble acquiring the dot.

I have put all my chips on the table betting it was the Glock muzzle pointing high due to the grip angle? Hope I’m right and the SS comes thru, cuz if not, I could have spent less money on a Gen5 MOS!

 

[nortac]

Reminds me of the old hymn, "Gladly, the cross-eyed Bear"....sorry Lord, the debil made me do it!

 

[OkieStubble]

Reminds me of the old hymn, "Gladly, the cross-eyed Bear"....sorry Lord, the debil made me do it!

I belly laughed!

 

[OkieStubble]

Holosun SCS320 came in and is mounted.

 

[nortac]

I got to look through a Holosun 507 with the ACSS chevron reticle today, I really like it. This one was red, I want to see one in green now.