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Do we overemphasise stones? Paste vs stoned edge?
- Thread starter Nik
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Hasn't been my experience, not since I got the BBB 1000 and 3000 vitrified diamond stones. Steels that I used to think were horrible to sharpen, like ZDP-189 and S110V and Maxamet became pretty much like any other steels. I don't know why the experience was so different from the Venevs I was using before.
The conventional wisdom is that the need for diamonds/CBN comes not so much from steel hardness as from carbide composition. If you ignore the hard carbides, I find resin-bonded diamond stones to be slower than Alox/Sic stones.
I reserve all of my supersteel explorations for pocketknives. Sharpening white and blue steels in my kitchen knives is fun, so I am not concerned with edge retention, beyond a certain point. And this CPM-M4 razor hasn't made me want to seek out more supersteel razors, although at least I've finally got it tamed.
Oh it was a razor you have from CPM-M4 (!) I thought you meant a knife. Crikey, that can’t be that fun.
Though presumably now you’ll never have to hone or strop it ever again, and can probably use to cut down trees between shaves as well if you want...
You'd think so, wouldn't you? But it chips. A lot. I have a tape-honed microbevel on it now, but haven't put it to the test enough to know whether the problem is truly fixed.Oh it was a razor you have from CPM-M4 (!) I thought you meant a knife. Crikey, that can’t be that fun.
Though presumably now you’ll never have to hone or strop it ever again, and can probably use to cut down trees between shaves as well if you want...
I'm facing this with my TI Le Dandy. I'm close to the point where it's ready to shave with, but it's taken a lot more work than my Gold Dollar.
I'm at the stage where I'm striving for consistent results. I've ended up playing around and mixing and matching, on the way. Repeatability/Predicatbility is what I'm looking for.
Stones and leather for me. If you are learning and trying to shave on a budget, maybe films and pasted balsa would be a solution. The learner would be well advised to be able to create shaving edges on stones though. Why? I don't know, it just seems proper. Like opening doors for old ladies and not visiting the bar right before church.
One stone that is not over emphasized, however, is the bevel setter. Without a properly set bevel, pasted strops and finishing stones are useless. Bevel setter rules them all. No one ever brags about their bevel setter. They're usually not pretty enough, fine enough, exotic enough to warrant attention. Yet that is where the really important stuff happens. We should have a moment of silence to show appreciation for the stones that get it all off the ground......
One stone that is not over emphasized, however, is the bevel setter. Without a properly set bevel, pasted strops and finishing stones are useless. Bevel setter rules them all. No one ever brags about their bevel setter. They're usually not pretty enough, fine enough, exotic enough to warrant attention. Yet that is where the really important stuff happens. We should have a moment of silence to show appreciation for the stones that get it all off the ground......
One thing that I wonder about is how much honing more frequently than the razor really needs to be honed potentially complicates the learning curve for some of us. I seldom shave with a razor until it starts to tug because I really just want to hone a lot. I’ve really never given myself a chance to explore, A- How long a razor can really go before it needs to be refreshed and, B: How little/much work really needs to be done to get it back up and running.
The most frequently promoted progression generally start with 1K all the way up to your synthetic or natural finisher of choice. All this leaves me wondering how often we really need to drop all the way back to 1K from the standpoint of true necessity. I literally just got done removing a number of chips with my Shapton 12K and 2 rounds of light slurry in a very short time. It just makes me wonder…
Bear in mind that all of these thoughts are within the context of an already shaving razor that just needs periodic maintenance. This obviously would not cover razors that need some level of restoration or something like a brand new GD.
The most frequently promoted progression generally start with 1K all the way up to your synthetic or natural finisher of choice. All this leaves me wondering how often we really need to drop all the way back to 1K from the standpoint of true necessity. I literally just got done removing a number of chips with my Shapton 12K and 2 rounds of light slurry in a very short time. It just makes me wonder…
Bear in mind that all of these thoughts are within the context of an already shaving razor that just needs periodic maintenance. This obviously would not cover razors that need some level of restoration or something like a brand new GD.
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Yup. It's a question I've been able to ignore for a while, because I kept getting better at honing, and more picky about what is acceptable. Almost any razor in my stable, when it seemed to need something more than a touch-up, I could look at and say: nope, starting over at the bevel set with this one. Usually because of insufficient attention to the toe and heel.
With a growing proportion now sporting proper bevels all the way along, including the toe and heel, I now look carefully under the microscope, and make a call about what stone I should start with, to deal with microchips. Often enough, it's a fine suita JNat roughly comparable to your 12K. Fast for its grit is what you want here, and suitas and Shaptons are in that category.
I remember I went 2 years or so where I only used my helje mk 4 and coticule (sometimes a stray razor with jnag edge). Was more busy so I only honed when I needed. I would get 20-25 shaves from my coticule edge before I needed a touch up. My touch up just involved water under the faucet strokes until the razor would stick to the stone (less than 5 or so minutes). I think normally after 4 or 5 touch ups I would notice the razor still needed work. When that happened though I went back to the 1k (did not kill the edge) and just did a random amount of laps, then the 5k, and finish on the coticule.
I think my coticule is finer than a 10k synthetic and decently fast.
I would shave ever 2-3 days.
I think my coticule is finer than a 10k synthetic and decently fast.
I would shave ever 2-3 days.
I had the same question, so I started tracking my Ralf Aust after it came back from being honed by Portland Razor. I'm on shave 52. I've used CrOx/FeOx paste on balsa to keep the edge fresh. Strop on linen then leather after each shave. I shave daily.
I've since learned how to hone a blade myself. How many shaves varies as I learn to hone. I'm now wondering about when (by what criteria) and how far back in the progression to go as the blade edge deteriorates and I refresh it. For my Le Dandy, I've had to start over three times as I learn how to hone that blade (and the nature of the stones I'm using).
For me, i know i exaggerate the meaning of a material or parts of a process sometimes. It happens.
Most of the time i think i do it because of insecurities concerning the particular work.
A writer once told me about a method to get past the point where youre stuck, "kill your darlings" he said. Got the best and most intense idea about something and cant move on? F that idea. Its in the way of moving forward.
I can obsess over flatness quite alot, partially cause i havent got a sweet reference surface with near-eternal abrasive attatched to it.
But even flatness (castles) made of sand,
Melts into the sea, eventually.
Most of the time i think i do it because of insecurities concerning the particular work.
A writer once told me about a method to get past the point where youre stuck, "kill your darlings" he said. Got the best and most intense idea about something and cant move on? F that idea. Its in the way of moving forward.
I can obsess over flatness quite alot, partially cause i havent got a sweet reference surface with near-eternal abrasive attatched to it.
But even flatness (castles) made of sand,
Melts into the sea, eventually.
I like diamonds for stock removal and coarse work on knives. I don't like the EE on my knives... mainly because I don't care how mirrored the bevel is... I care about how it feels on the hone and how it cuts, and I get better results on basically every knife I own with oilstones vs the EE. Most of the guys I see loving the EE are ranting and raving about the mirror it puts on a bevel.
Now as a midrange razor hone? Love it.
That said, I don't tend to get too caught up in looking for the hardest steels out there. I've honed a few cheap "Ultra-hard" chinese knives that claim high 60's/whatever hrc... and I've got a few Blue/White steel knives from established japanese smiths. Don't recall what they were sold as; but I want to say in the 60-63 HRC range, maybe?
Never needed diamonds for anything.
Now as a midrange razor hone? Love it.
That said, I don't tend to get too caught up in looking for the hardest steels out there. I've honed a few cheap "Ultra-hard" chinese knives that claim high 60's/whatever hrc... and I've got a few Blue/White steel knives from established japanese smiths. Don't recall what they were sold as; but I want to say in the 60-63 HRC range, maybe?
Never needed diamonds for anything.
I think back in the days when SR shaving wasn't a hobby but necessity, very few were interested in maintaining a razor the way us hobbyists do these days... There was no fetish about getting more Ooomph out of a razor, all they wanted was something that shaved them well for as long as possible with minimal fuss. To get the best results, pastes were used on a hanging strop after the 6-12K natural hone to create kind of micro convexity, as an arc shaped edge is sturdier than a triangle. Done right and in the right hands, those edges felt great and could hold for months with minimal stropping on leather only...
Extensive and thoughtless use of pastes had led to the belief that pastes are inferior, lead to harsh or rounded edges and should be avoided. Truth is that they allways had and should still have their rightfull place in honing because they are able to do what can't be done with a hone.
Peter.
Extensive and thoughtless use of pastes had led to the belief that pastes are inferior, lead to harsh or rounded edges and should be avoided. Truth is that they allways had and should still have their rightfull place in honing because they are able to do what can't be done with a hone.
Peter.
I would definitely concede to the possibility that the priorities we have in modern straight razor shaving probably bears little resemblance to the traditional model of maintenance found in the 1800s.
I used green paste for a while when I started before I bought any stones.
I’d do a few laps to refresh when I felt like it.
It was ok I suppose, what did I know?
It was cheap, useful and at the time, convenient.
But some pastes were better than others and I had no way of knowing which.
I moved onto films which were more consistent, though cutting them to size, wetting, removing air bubbles, avoiding any folds and creases which always crept in was all a bit time consuming.
Still, I stuck with them and learned to refresh my razor using them.
I remember the first time I got it right. Eureka!
Later I learned to use them to set bevels and remove chips etc and they were cheap and I could get a full progression for £15.
For anyone starting out, and learning to maintain a razor cheaply, I’d recommend it.
Then I bought a stone.
It was awkward at first and difficult to use due to its smaller size compared to an 8x3 inch cut to size piece of film.
Plus I find stones require a little surface prep to be at their most effective.
My slates like a lot of razor laps leaving a glaze on the stone, my coticule likes a rub down with a slurry stone, my Ark likes a 600 grit sanding or silicone carbide.
Who knows what my Jnat likes best?
But now they’re mostly dialled in I find them simpler to use, No mess, just a little oil or water from a running tap.
And the edges they deliver are just brilliant.
Amazingly sharp and effective, I still marvel at how natural stone can make work such magic on my razors.
They leave me with an extremely smooth face and just a brilliant post shave feel.
They do this every day without fail.
I don’t know what grit my stones are, I don’t even know if this is a meaningful question once surface prep is allowed into the equation.
I just know they do a spectacular job for me and I enjoy using the few I have.
I’d do a few laps to refresh when I felt like it.
It was ok I suppose, what did I know?
It was cheap, useful and at the time, convenient.
But some pastes were better than others and I had no way of knowing which.
I moved onto films which were more consistent, though cutting them to size, wetting, removing air bubbles, avoiding any folds and creases which always crept in was all a bit time consuming.
Still, I stuck with them and learned to refresh my razor using them.
I remember the first time I got it right. Eureka!
Later I learned to use them to set bevels and remove chips etc and they were cheap and I could get a full progression for £15.
For anyone starting out, and learning to maintain a razor cheaply, I’d recommend it.
Then I bought a stone.
It was awkward at first and difficult to use due to its smaller size compared to an 8x3 inch cut to size piece of film.
Plus I find stones require a little surface prep to be at their most effective.
My slates like a lot of razor laps leaving a glaze on the stone, my coticule likes a rub down with a slurry stone, my Ark likes a 600 grit sanding or silicone carbide.
Who knows what my Jnat likes best?
But now they’re mostly dialled in I find them simpler to use, No mess, just a little oil or water from a running tap.
And the edges they deliver are just brilliant.
Amazingly sharp and effective, I still marvel at how natural stone can make work such magic on my razors.
They leave me with an extremely smooth face and just a brilliant post shave feel.
They do this every day without fail.
I don’t know what grit my stones are, I don’t even know if this is a meaningful question once surface prep is allowed into the equation.
I just know they do a spectacular job for me and I enjoy using the few I have.
The only paste I ever found somewhat useful was T-I White, and I'm not saying that pastes, sprays are not useful for others, but for me, they always produced a rather harsh edge. Also, I'm in this game for tradition, and for the vast majority of shaves, I'll use traditional stones.
Just the way I roll...
Just the way I roll...
I have yet to experience a more comfortable shave than from a razor honed on a natural stone so I am sticking with that.
What others do doesn't really matter because I know what works the best for me.
What others do doesn't really matter because I know what works the best for me.
Lol. Razor honing is such a rabbit hole. Initially has no idea which stones to get, so pulled the trigger for a set of Shapton Pro Kuromaku, 1K, 2K, 5K, 8K and 12K. Didi not realize the 12K was a dud, and was actually degrading my edge off 8K. Picked up the Naniwa Kagayaki line, found the edge off the 12k was buttery smooth, but the face was burning when applying aftershave lotion. Then turned to Naniwa Arata line. In the meantime, picked a set of King, and the Shapton Pro 30K, and different diamond pastes, CrOx pastes, Alumia pastes. Recently even picked up a set a Shapton RockStar. But the reality is that all I need was probably any set of my 5 sets. I eventually got all of the working except the Shapton pro 12K and I hardly use the 30K at all, 8K then strop on CrOx works great, directly shave off Naniwa 10K/12K is no drama, Shapton Pro 30K does refines a little bit, but does not justify the price. All my naturals are capable of finishing, I just did not find the right way to use them. Now all of a sudden, I realize that I can probably go for a couple of year before any of my razors toching the stone again.
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