Bevel Setting Troubles

[Timeclo]

I am a proponent of the burr method and I use it quite a lot. However, if you have been working at a razor for a while, I don't think you have a lot of steel left to remove. Where the burr method really shines is when there is a lot of heavy lifting to do. Regardless, concentrate on only one razor for now.

Do you have a very bright work light? You need a single point of overpoweringly bright light when you are first learning to read the bevel, so you get a bright, sharp reflection where there is something to reflect from. You also need a good loupe or a very strong magnifying glass. There is no better loupe than the Belomo 10x Triplet. For razors, it is ideal, because the loupe does not have to be close enough to accidentally contact the edge of the razor. You may also find that a cheap USB microscope can be useful. 100x is a good magnification level. The advantage of a USB microscope is you can share pics of your bevel. You should also have a sharpie marker for painting the bevel. Cover the bevel faces with ink, let it dry a minute, and take a couple of strokes on stone or film and see where the ink remains. Where it remains, you did not make contact with the hone.

When you roll the razor in the light, with your loupe you want to see a brignt line reflecting off the bevel face, quickly shift across the bevel and off the edge with no little sparkles of reflection at the edge, an invisible edge when it is turned fully up, and a resumption of the strong reflection flashing across the other side bevel.

Back to the sharpie test. A common issue is a thick heel or a thickening due to the edge wearing back until the stabilizer becomes a problem. This will manifest itself in an inability to make contact with the bevel NEAR the heel, with a normal honing stroke. The cure for this has been discussed on this and other forums quite a bit, and is to trim the heel and essentially eliminate that final tail end part of the edge along with the offending heel and stabilizer swell. The usual way is to use a quarter or nickel as a template to draw a curve with a sharpie. Take a coarse diamond plate like what you get from Harbor Freight, and work the heel down into the line you drew. Stand the razor up at about a 45 degree angle and use a sweeping motion. Those HF diamond plates are very cheap and while they are not very flat and are not of high quality, are excellent for this type of work. You can also use the side of a coarse hone but I prefer not to gouge up any surface of my stones. Myself, I often use a belt sander for this but I don't recommend that, your first time at bat.

Slurry raised from the stone while setting a bevel helps to speed up the process. However, it does place limits on how sharp the edge is, right off the bevel setter. Try rinsing the slurry off the stone when you think you got the bevel set, and then do some more laps under running water.

I know you have heard this over and over, but the bevel is not set until it is proven to be set. Prove it, by sight, by sharpie test, and by the usual sharpness tests. The biggest advantage of the burr method is that it provides its own proof, by the existence of a full length burr on each side in turn. However, I cannot stress enough the necessity of doing a thorough cleanup of the edge, once the burr has been raised on each side in turn. If you still have a burr, you don't have a good bevel. A good cleanup uses diminishing pressure so as not to simply maintain the burr and shift it side to side, making and breaking off little teeth and leaving gaps and chips. Pressure creates a burr, when the bevel face of one side crosses over the other. Honing with extremely light pressure can eventually remove the burr. For best pressure regulation, hone in hand. Don't rest the stone on a fixed surface. Don't brace your arm. Let the hand holding the hone and the hand holding the razor float out in space in front of you. For raising a burr, use heavy pressure. By heavy pressure, I mean the weight of your arm. Feel carefully for the burr. When it is evident along the entire edge, raise it on the other side, same way. I like to count the laps used for the first side, and then use the same number of laps for the other side, to keep the apex more or less centered. I also like to mix in some pull strokes when cleaning up a bevel. To do this, lay the razor on the hone but instead of stroking it the length of the hone, pull it directly sideways, as if dragging it off the side of the hone by the tang. Only pull it about 3/4" to 1". Flip and pull on the other side. This does a lot to clear the edge. You can maybe go 5 normal laps, then a pull stroke lap. Keep gradually reducing pressure as you grind that burr away. Finish with very short x strokes, using only maybe 3" or 4" of the hone, on a freshly rinsed stone, under running water. Once you really nail it, you should be able to shave your face with it. Not practically or enjoyably, but it should shave.

Concentrate on just one razor. I suspect you are skipping around too quickly and not putting in your time on just one until it is done.

How are you lapping your stones, and how often?

I've been practicing bevel setting on couple different razors so I've been going back and forth. I've spent a day on each of the troublesome razors and I haven't made much progress.. maybe just more frustration.

I've been able to set the bevel on couple more razors, couple Gold Dollars and couple American vintages. The difference seems to be that they are warp-free and take a more even edge.

I lap the stone using my Atoma 600. Lapping if I use a stone for more than 10-15 minutes and also at the end of my honing sessions.

I'm experimenting with adding more layers of tapes for the razors. That might help since I have a lot of spine wear and alter the angle of the bevel. I don't mind spine wear but if messes with setting the bevel, I might be more prone to using tape.

Narrow hone is another thing I want to mess around with but I only have a Soft/Hard Ark combo and a coticule for narrow hones. I'm going with my Shapton synthetics to practice so hard to work with that.

 

[duke762]

Tip of the hat to HBrad and Slash. Great info. I can set a bevel, but I'm humbled by your ability to put it into words and explain it, let alone, type it out in a timely fashion.

More laps, lower grits and more pressure are never the answer.

I really like that quote HBrad! Can I steal It? Honing gospel! Man you are keen eyed. It would have taken me a long time to catch the problems here, if I would have caught them at all..... A phrase I made up for work is, " It's easier to ramp up aggression, than it is to ramp it down". Applies to honing and razor restoration....HHhhhmm.....and domestic disputes, foreign policy, interpersonal conflicts,,,,,,

I'm a fan of the burr method, especially for those unfamiliar with the bevel set process or struggling. I've had razors come into shape without using the burr method but they were in pretty nice shape to begin with. Is one process desirable vs the other? Two means to an end, or is it heavy handed butchery vs precision sharpening? I can't say. But I believe burrs for beginners, burrs for restores and damage and more experienced folks, can bypass the full burr method, would be most likely be the best idea. Hopefully you only have to do it once and very, very well.

Yup, I'm doing fine with my bevels but I sure learned a lot from this thread!

 

[Calou]

Why make it complicated when it can be simple ?
The blade of an SR is in its simplest form (edge) a triangle 7 cm long. The geometry of the spine carries the blade. the blade geometry carries the bevel, the bevel geometry carries the edge. The edge geometry carries the cutting force of the hair.
Starting at the beginning is a good way to not get lost along the way.
is it so difficult to test a triangle with a flat surface?

 

[JPO]

Tip of the hat to HBrad and Slash. Great info. I can set a bevel, but I'm humbled by your ability to put it into words and explain it, let alone, type it out in a timely fashion.




I really like that quote HBrad! Can I steal It? Honing gospel! Man you are keen eyed. It would have taken me a long time to catch the problems here, if I would have caught them at all..... A phrase I made up for work is, " It's easier to ramp up aggression, than it is to ramp it down". Applies to honing and razor restoration....HHhhhmm.....and domestic disputes, foreign policy, interpersonal conflicts,,,,,,

I'm a fan of the burr method, especially for those unfamiliar with the bevel set process or struggling. I've had razors come into shape without using the burr method but they were in pretty nice shape to begin with. Is one process desirable vs the other? Two means to an end, or is it heavy handed butchery vs precision sharpening? I can't say. But I believe burrs for beginners, burrs for restores and damage and more experienced folks, can bypass the full burr method, would be most likely be the best idea. Hopefully you only have to do it once and very, very well.

Yup, I'm doing fine with my bevels but I sure learned a lot from this thread!

In principle all sharpening is burr based. Alternating strokes just keeps the burr aligned in the centre. Folding it over by working one side at a time, then crushing it when you start on the other side is in my opinion reserved for knife sharpening.
Refining by using finer grits is just redusing the burr gradually without overstressing the steel.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

The goal of straight razor honing is to not raise a bur, because the burr will eventually break off and then you have a jagged edge, great for most knives, a toothy edge, but not your face.

That and it is very aggressive on thin steel. Combined with a new honer and an untapped spine, a new guy can trash a razor quickly.

If the razor is not sitting flat on the stone, forcing it on to the stone with pressure, low and aggressive grits will just remove a lot of steel needlessly.

Look at how a razor sits on the stone, (Ink on the bevel, sometimes the spine and the stabilizer) and hone the razor how it needs to be honed. Most razor have a slight warp and honing with straight strokes will not hone the whole edge evenly. A rolling X stroke will get those and smiling razors honed easily.

95 percent of new honers edge issues are because of failure to FULLY Set the Bevel. You cannot polish an edge that does not exist.

It is one thing to say, in theory, a fully set bevel is just a triangle from spine to edge, another to make that happen in the real world, with Vintage, or poorly ground, or abused razors. In theory a razor should be much easier to hone than a knife, they are not.

A fully set bevel is when the bevels are flat, in the correct bevel angle, and are meeting Fully from heel to toe at the edge. Then it is just polishing the bevel to straighten the edge.

If after 100 laps you cannot get the bevels to meet, something is wrong, stop and find out what it is. Use tape until you master honing, then decide of you want to continue to use tape, at least you will have a razor to hone.

If your razor has massive spine wear, it may not hold an edge. The fix is tape.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I've been practicing bevel setting on couple different razors so I've been going back and forth. I've spent a day on each of the troublesome razors and I haven't made much progress.. maybe just more frustration.

I've been able to set the bevel on couple more razors, couple Gold Dollars and couple American vintages. The difference seems to be that they are warp-free and take a more even edge.

I lap the stone using my Atoma 600. Lapping if I use a stone for more than 10-15 minutes and also at the end of my honing sessions.

I'm experimenting with adding more layers of tapes for the razors. That might help since I have a lot of spine wear and alter the angle of the bevel. I don't mind spine wear but if messes with setting the bevel, I might be more prone to using tape.

Narrow hone is another thing I want to mess around with but I only have a Soft/Hard Ark combo and a coticule for narrow hones. I'm going with my Shapton synthetics to practice so hard to work with that.

Stick with just ONE razor for a while. In other words, until you get it right. Skipping around is part of the problem, I think.

On the GD, absolutely forget about taping the spine. The bevel is already very obtuse. Unless you just want the razor for chopping carrots and celery.

SET THAT BEVEL. Don't worry about the bevel face being of consistent width. That is absolutely entirely irrelevant as long as there is a bevel face running the length of the edge. The varying width of the bevel face is only important in figuring out exactly what is imperfect about the particular razor's geometry. It has no bearing on the cutting ability of the edge. To make the razor cut well, you need a good bevel, with the two faces meeting in a precise line, a line that can be curved or perfectly straight, either one, as long as any curve in the edge is convex only and never concave. (That would be a "frowning" edge, which is a bad thing.)

It is much preferable to lap a stone on a surface significantly longer and wider than the stone being lapped, and to not overrun the edges. However we can let that slide for now as you have bigger fish to fry than nuances of the lapping process.

Are you honing in hand, or on a fixed surface?

Have you examined your edge under a bright light with reasonably strong magnification? What do you see?

Again, stick with one razor only, until you get it right. STOP TAPING. If you feel some irrational and irresistible compulsion to tape, please, use only a single layer, unless you are honing a full wedge, and I strongly recommend you not mess with a wedge until you can consistently hone hollowground razors.

How much pressure are you using? Weight of whole arm? Weight of forearm? Weight of hand? Less? Once the bevel faces meet, you need to lighten up your pressure. This reduces scratch depth and so reduces the toothiness of the edge, and also flexes the very flexible and delicate edge upward much less than heavier pressure. When you flex the edge upward, the contact area becomes centered further behind the edge, thinning the razor behind the edge but not at the edge. This is how you get a wire edge, fin edge, and other artifacts which essentially are the same thing as a burr, just not deliberately pushed to one side or the other. If you raised a burr already, you don't want to make more burr. You want to remove it entirely and not make more of it.

LOOK at your edge. Work with what you got. Do what you got to do to make it right. Set that bevel and prove that it is set. ONE razor at a time. Don't switch back and forth. Set that bevel. If the heel needs trimming, do it first, before doing anything else. Look at your contact area. Look at where your contact area should be, but isn't.

Once the bevel is set, don't keep wailing away on your coarse stones with heavy pressure! Spend some time on the next stage of your progression. Your Shap synthetics should work fine. Use your sharpie. LOOK. OBSERVE. CORRECT. HONE HONE HONE. More pressure cuts faster but deforms the edge. Less pressure maintains geometry better and leaves a smoother edge but requires more laps. It is a balancing act, but once the bevel is set, lighter pressure is your friend.

ONE RAZOR. Pick one, stick with it for a few weeks if necessary. Gitter done. You can do this! If the bevel is set, move on to the next stage. Take your time. LOOK. OBSERVE. CORRECT. REPEAT. HONE. What do you see? What are you doing to fix it?

 

[Steve56]

Just to add to what others have said, burrs are caused by:

- spending too much time on one side of the blade;
- using too much pressure;
- aggressive hones

You can reduce or eliminate burrs by:

- flipping the blade each stroke;
- using light pressure
- use a coticule, which you have to try to make a burr

Too shallow of a bevel angle can produce a weak apex that mimics a burr/fin.

In terms of forming a burr on a razor, it’s also good to note that all steels are not created equal. Geometry/chip removal on a 325 DMT diamond plate with pressure is about as burr-forming as it gets. A Gold Dollar will create a large burr/fin then the plate will tear pieces out of it. However, doing the same operation on some of the old cast steel razors makes little or no observable burr off my mellow 325 DMT, just a straight, even edge. Oddly enough, I honed a GBS razor, a cheaper, modern razor that usually comes in a kit. It needed some DMT correction too and I almost afraid to look at the apex. Surprise, a straight, even edge off the plate and 500 Shapton Glass.

For the sake of discussion, I’ll throw out the idea that razors whose steel create minimal or no observable burrs take better edges and shave better than the ones that are prone to making burrs/fins easily.

 

[Gamma]

It's you, or the razors, or both - but it's not the Shapton 1.5k. I've honed more razors than I can count on that stone, of all types, in all conditions, and it performs as well as anything in that slot and it is waaay more than capable of making bevels you can shave with.

The 1k Pro is softer, grainer, thirstier - not as good at setting very accurate bevels. It can be used for bevel set work but it not the answer to your problems.

I can't follow the images posted earlier, they're in a gallery and I can't drag them to my desktop for enlargement and adjustment. I see a lot of misdirection in the comments, too much to read, too many extra photos - man, it's not that complicated.

Pick a blade. One blade. Work with it until you sort out your issues.

Lap your stones flat - make sure they are flat by checking with a quality straightedge. Do not rely on grids to tell you the stone is flat because that can/will fail more often than not.

Learn to torque the blade to the edge, stop pressing on the spine.

Hone heal leading, and pay attention to the edge on the stone. Watch what you are doing and be aware of what is going on. If you need to roll the blade to accommodate a warp, do that. Do not do that until you know you have a warp - so make sure your stones are flat. Checking sharpie on the bevel doesn't mean spit if the stone isn't flat or you are pressing too hard.

Check the edges to make sure you don't have a frown. Can't tell from the pix, but you need to be sure. That straightedge mentioned earlier is good for this.

You mentioned that your midrange was setting the edge back. That is not necessarily a sign of a not done bevel. In fact it probably isn't that at all. It could be your midrange work is terrible, stones not flat, etc. Could be you made a burr during bevel set and the 5k (or whatever) knocked it off and left you with a plateau.

I see spine wear, check your bevel angle. Be sure it's not too low, some steel won't hold a good edge when it's too acute.

Don't 'kill edges' - just hone without parlor tricks.

You don't need a gazillion X magnification. In fact, it gets in the way. I rarely use more than 4x. You need to see that the faces of the bevel meet correctly, you don't need to see inside the striations.

Work the blade, learn to feel it grind correctly, and when you can shave with your bevel set edge you might be ready to move forward or close. If you lose the edge, then it's not the bevel work, it's what you are doing at the next stage. Tree topping, HHTs, etc - meh- shave with the edge and learn to associate how well your bevel set work feels on the stone with how well it edge shaves. No, it won't be a grand shave but if you get it to go ATG without pain you're prob good to go.

Most of the time, with most new users, the issues are
1 - assuming the bevel is done and moving forward.
2 - Too much pressure on the blade
3 - Pressing on the spine
4 - Not flat stones
5 - Not looking at what the edge is doing, or not doing, on the stone's surface.
6 - Assuming that a bevel set is X number of strokes.
7 - Not flat stones
8 - Warped blade, see #5
9 - Honing on swarf - learn to clear the buildup off so the stone cuts evenly.
10 - Not flat stones
11 - Not rolling the stroke correctly
12 - Not understanding that rolling stokes means the bevel set takes a lot longer.
13 - See #4
14 - Not understanding blade geometry, trying to hone on stabilizers, etc.
15 - Creating a burr and thinking it's a bevel
17 - See #7
18 - Micro-pitting, rotten steel
19 - Trying to make an end run around bad geometry.
20 - Not flat stones....

 

[Timeclo]

It's you, or the razors, or both - but it's not the Shapton 1.5k. I've honed more razors than I can count on that stone, of all types, in all conditions, and it performs as well as anything in that slot and it is waaay more than capable of making bevels you can shave with.

The 1k Pro is softer, grainer, thirstier - not as good at setting very accurate bevels. It can be used for bevel set work but it not the answer to your problems.

I can't follow the images posted earlier, they're in a gallery and I can't drag them to my desktop for enlargement and adjustment. I see a lot of misdirection in the comments, too much to read, too many extra photos - man, it's not that complicated.

Pick a blade. One blade. Work with it until you sort out your issues.

Lap your stones flat - make sure they are flat by checking with a quality straightedge. Do not rely on grids to tell you the stone is flat because that can/will fail more often than not.

Learn to torque the blade to the edge, stop pressing on the spine.

Hone heal leading, and pay attention to the edge on the stone. Watch what you are doing and be aware of what is going on. If you need to roll the blade to accommodate a warp, do that. Do not do that until you know you have a warp - so make sure your stones are flat. Checking sharpie on the bevel doesn't mean spit if the stone isn't flat or you are pressing too hard.

Check the edges to make sure you don't have a frown. Can't tell from the pix, but you need to be sure. That straightedge mentioned earlier is good for this.

You mentioned that your midrange was setting the edge back. That is not necessarily a sign of a not done bevel. In fact it probably isn't that at all. It could be your midrange work is terrible, stones not flat, etc. Could be you made a burr during bevel set and the 5k (or whatever) knocked it off and left you with a plateau.

I see spine wear, check your bevel angle. Be sure it's not too low, some steel won't hold a good edge when it's too acute.

Don't 'kill edges' - just hone without parlor tricks.

You don't need a gazillion X magnification. In fact, it gets in the way. I rarely use more than 4x. You need to see that the faces of the bevel meet correctly, you don't need to see inside the striations.

Work the blade, learn to feel it grind correctly, and when you can shave with your bevel set edge you might be ready to move forward or close. If you lose the edge, then it's not the bevel work, it's what you are doing at the next stage. Tree topping, HHTs, etc - meh- shave with the edge and learn to associate how well your bevel set work feels on the stone with how well it edge shaves. No, it won't be a grand shave but if you get it to go ATG without pain you're prob good to go.

Most of the time, with most new users, the issues are
1 - assuming the bevel is done and moving forward.
2 - Too much pressure on the blade
3 - Pressing on the spine
4 - Not flat stones
5 - Not looking at what the edge is doing, or not doing, on the stone's surface.
6 - Assuming that a bevel set is X number of strokes.
7 - Not flat stones
8 - Warped blade, see #5
9 - Honing on swarf - learn to clear the buildup off so the stone cuts evenly.
10 - Not flat stones
11 - Not rolling the stroke correctly
12 - Not understanding that rolling stokes means the bevel set takes a lot longer.
13 - See #4
14 - Not understanding blade geometry, trying to hone on stabilizers, etc.
15 - Creating a burr and thinking it's a bevel
17 - See #7
18 - Micro-pitting, rotten steel
19 - Trying to make an end run around bad geometry.
20 - Not flat stones....

The Stone is flat. I just checked with a straight edge and I lap it down every time I use it.

I'm sticking to the Geneva Cutlery razor and I spent about 30 mins today on it. It cuts hair but it's just not where I like it to be. My bevel test is when it cuts hair easily and without tugging; once I get to this point, every razor cut close to where I like it. The Geneva razor is not getting to the level. Getting close but there is always a bit of hesitation and I'm not moving on until I get it set.

Yesterday, I set the bevel on two more vintages to a point where I'm satisfied with. I think the warp has to do something with it because other razors hone fine. Now, is it worth trying to hone a warped razor? I'm sure there is a way and many people on the forums say that there is but I just haven't had success yet. Maybe a narrow hone is one method but only narrow hone is my soft/hard Ark and coticule which doesn't help for bevel setting. I'll keep trying to set the bevel on these razors but at some point, I might just move on and stick to other razors that take an edge. It's probably my lack of experience but tough to say.

 

[JPO]

Most of my razors do have some geometry problems. The most common a slight warp/curve in the blade. When you are doing rolling x strokes you need to roll/shift pressure with the curvature of the blade. This is easy on the belly side. On the other side you need to sort of drop down as you move over the edge of your stone. You are to some extent only using maybe one third of the width of your stone with the stroke on the concave side.
Shaving off a 1k edge might be something to strive for, but it might also keep you from getting somewhere. Good work is always built on a good foundation. At some point you need to move on. Yes, the bevel needs to be set, but do you need to be able to shave with it at this stage? I don't need to.
This is one example of a unrefined 1k Morihei edge. This stone is really coarse, so compared to a Naniwa it is probably close to 600-800 grit. This does cut arm hair, but not that well. It is still a set bevel. My final edge line will be located a distance behind the weak steel. So judging the edge by the weak steel in front of the red dotted line i not telling me much.

This is after a little work on a natural stone. Going from a unrefined coarse edge to this.

For reference, this is a GSB DE blade.

This was just a test i did to test a stone. A gradual refinement process is probably the best way to hone a razor.
This shaved just as well as a progression which took much more time. I am not sure what the message here is, but unrealistic expectations from a coarse stone might also be in the way.

 

[Gamma]

I'm sticking to the Geneva Cutlery razor and I spent about 30 mins today on it.

If you are honing a razor for 30 minutes and you don't have a good bevel then something is way off. It could be the warp, sure. Warped razors require more skill to hone, and more time also. It's worth doing if you want to do it. Truthfully, that razor can teach you more about honing than a 100 gold dollars ever will. Being open to the lessons is a critical concern though, not everyone wants to go to school all the time. It is seems like too much bother, then pass - honing is about having fun. Well, it should be.

Most of the razors I've honed had at least a bit of deviation in the grind, others have had a lot. I usually go for basket case blades, I like the challenges they present.
When the stroke is rolled, only part of the edge is on the stone at any one time, so the time needed to get it all into shape is extended exponentially. The severity of a warp matters, I can't tell from here how difficult yours is to work with. Extreme warps are very difficult. A good number of razors that are very old but in decent shape are in that condition because they had issues no one wanted to deal with. Remember, back then razors were a 'dime a dozen' - no one was going to invest an hour honing a razor that cost $0.25...

Could be bevel angle. Too steep of an angle can cause edge failure.
Could be micro-pitting, old blades can be loaded with rotten steel.
Could be someone buffed the razor to death, killing the temper. it is a common auction-site issue.
Stabilizers and heels on vintage razors 'might' need to be adjusted to allow the blade to sit on the stone correctly.
Could be a dud - 3 duds is unlikely but not impossible.

Geneva NY blades are usually pretty hard steel, hold edges very well. Not sure about later manufactured examples though. In any case, something tells me that your solutions are right in front of you and with a bit of thought and execution that blade will submit to your will. Watching the blade's edge on the stone closely can reveal what you need to do so the edge is making positive contact. It might be difficult at first, to see and then to do, but with practice it can all fall into place. If the task is too far outside of the proverbial wheelhouse, bench it and move to something less problematic. Most of us have hit 'the wall' at least once with a razor or two or three - it's not unusual and moving to another project can help clear the mind.

 

[lightfoot]

One thing that’s a good method for detecting areas that aren’t touching the stone is doing some work at 1.5K in your case and immediately going to the 12k for around 20-30 half-strokes. You’ll see right away what areas are untouched. I’ve found this to be more truthful than the Sharpie because it won’t wash off. This may provide a clear picture of possible geometry issues.

 

[Slash McCoy]

The Stone is flat. I just checked with a straight edge and I lap it down every time I use it.

I'm sticking to the Geneva Cutlery razor and I spent about 30 mins today on it. It cuts hair but it's just not where I like it to be. My bevel test is when it cuts hair easily and without tugging; once I get to this point, every razor cut close to where I like it. The Geneva razor is not getting to the level. Getting close but there is always a bit of hesitation and I'm not moving on until I get it set.

Yesterday, I set the bevel on two more vintages to a point where I'm satisfied with. I think the warp has to do something with it because other razors hone fine. Now, is it worth trying to hone a warped razor? I'm sure there is a way and many people on the forums say that there is but I just haven't had success yet. Maybe a narrow hone is one method but only narrow hone is my soft/hard Ark and coticule which doesn't help for bevel setting. I'll keep trying to set the bevel on these razors but at some point, I might just move on and stick to other razors that take an edge. It's probably my lack of experience but tough to say.

So what does the edge look like under magnification and bright light? Any sparkles when the edge is rolled up toward your eye? What does the bevel look like? Is it all getting some love, or are some spots not getting any?

Shaving off 1k is an admirable goal. Just realize that the most perfect 1k bevel will shave, sort of, but it won't be comfortable. At that grit level there should be quite a lot of tugging.

I suggest moving on up to the next grit if it performs well with the thumbnail test and cuts a cherry tomato smoothly and looks perfect and flawless except for the 1k scratch pattern and commensurate toothiness in the edge. Take your time in a 3k or 4k stone. Start with medium-light pressure. A dozen short x stroke laps with the weight of your forearm, holding the stone in hand. Then lighten your pressure to the weight of your hand, more short x strokes. Then fire for effect. Weight of razor and about one finger-weight, full length laps, throw in some pull strokes. Be very aware and on the lookout for feedback from the stone. You should get some degree of stiction when you are nearly there, and visually, you should see the new finer scratch pattern overwhelming the 1k scratches, and making the edge smoother. When you get there, lighten up to weight of the razor, switch back to short x strokes with some pull strokes mixed in, about 1 to 5. NOW how does it shave? Tugging should be almost bearable. Stay right there, don't move up to your 8k yet. Make sure you are DONE with this stage. Sleep on it. Tomorrow is another day.

Next day, make sure you are ready to move on up, then do so. Give your 8k a quick lap, and have at it, but start with hand weight, not forearm weight. Short x strokes, mix in some pull strokes. Then shift to full length laps and lighter pressure, watch for stiction. It should be strong at this stage. Finish with plenty of weight-of-razor pressure laps and finally short x stroke laps with pull strokes mixed in. Don't worry. If you are truly using only the weight of the razor, it is very hard to over-do it. When stiction is strong but doesn't seem to want to get any stronger, you are probably done with the 8k stage. Verify visually. You should see a much smoother bevel face and edge. If there are spots that seem to have been missed, rinse and repeat. Now the shave should be much nicer, almost a regular shave! You may see treetopping at 1/8" or so above the skin, when passed over your forearm. That is always a good sign. A well developed 8k edge was once considered shave-ready, after all. Sleep on it. Don't get burnt out.

Next day, hit your finisher, same way. Slightly less pressure than on the 8k. Stiction should become very strong, almost unmanageable. Don't let it suck the razor down hard on the stone. That basically creates "auto-pressure" and you could make a bit of fin edge. This is the "over-honing" that many honers speak of, especially old school guys. Pull strokes and short x strokes don't have this effect, or I should say not as strongly, so again, when stiction gets strong, shift to short x strokes. Finally, rinse your stone thoroughly and hone with shave lather or a dish soap solution, the lightest pressure you can manage. You are setting up a resilient buffer layer between stone and blade, reducing scratch depth and steel removed to bare minimum, almost zero. Plenty of laps here. You should get some treetopping at 1/4" above the skin. Your shave should be rather good following this stage. Remember to verify visually, too. If stiction is getting too strong, give it 3 or 4 spine leading laps and a couple of pull strokes. At this point it is difficult to improve the edge further, just make sure you aren't building a big fin edge or worse, a wire edge.

A note on treetopping. Yeah it is a favorite test of mine. It is USEFUL, but not the final word in edge quality by any means. It does tell you when your edge has improved, with one exception. At the bevel setting stage you may get quite a bit of treetopping ability, but this is due to the micro-saw nature of the coarse edge. Treetopping may well completely stop at the 3k stage, and resume with difficulty at the 8k stage. At the 12k stage, you should get a couple of hairs with every pass at 1/4" above the skin. There will be some pinging if the razor is thinner than about 1/4 hollow. It will give perceptible disturbance to the hair root. the "super treetop", where the blade soundlessly severs practically every hair it encounters with zero disturbance to the hair base, will not happen, most likely, after a 12k synth finisher, so don't expect that. Finally, YMMV very much, depending on stroke speed, angle, and hair texture. You have to dial this in for yourself. The main thing is by the 8k stage, treetopping should be showing you that you are making progress. Same with HHT, or any other sharpness test. These tests are simply more convenient than having a shave or several shaves during a honing session. The real test is how does it shave. The visual is also important. Even more so than a tactile sharpness test, but still not the final word. Visual examination will tell you if it is worth trying a shave or not, and absolute failure to treetop also probably means no sense lathering up your face just yet.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Could be someone buffed the razor to death, killing the temper. it is a common auction-site issue.

I can't prove it, but I have one razor that seems to suffer from this. Took me a while but eventually I just moved on.

 

[Timeclo]

So what does the edge look like under magnification and bright light? Any sparkles when the edge is rolled up toward your eye? What does the bevel look like? Is it all getting some love, or are some spots not getting any?

Shaving off 1k is an admirable goal. Just realize that the most perfect 1k bevel will shave, sort of, but it won't be comfortable. At that grit level there should be quite a lot of tugging.

I suggest moving on up to the next grit if it performs well with the thumbnail test and cuts a cherry tomato smoothly and looks perfect and flawless except for the 1k scratch pattern and commensurate toothiness in the edge. Take your time in a 3k or 4k stone. Start with medium-light pressure. A dozen short x stroke laps with the weight of your forearm, holding the stone in hand. Then lighten your pressure to the weight of your hand, more short x strokes. Then fire for effect. Weight of razor and about one finger-weight, full length laps, throw in some pull strokes. Be very aware and on the lookout for feedback from the stone. You should get some degree of stiction when you are nearly there, and visually, you should see the new finer scratch pattern overwhelming the 1k scratches, and making the edge smoother. When you get there, lighten up to weight of the razor, switch back to short x strokes with some pull strokes mixed in, about 1 to 5. NOW how does it shave? Tugging should be almost bearable. Stay right there, don't move up to your 8k yet. Make sure you are DONE with this stage. Sleep on it. Tomorrow is another day.

Next day, make sure you are ready to move on up, then do so. Give your 8k a quick lap, and have at it, but start with hand weight, not forearm weight. Short x strokes, mix in some pull strokes. Then shift to full length laps and lighter pressure, watch for stiction. It should be strong at this stage. Finish with plenty of weight-of-razor pressure laps and finally short x stroke laps with pull strokes mixed in. Don't worry. If you are truly using only the weight of the razor, it is very hard to over-do it. When stiction is strong but doesn't seem to want to get any stronger, you are probably done with the 8k stage. Verify visually. You should see a much smoother bevel face and edge. If there are spots that seem to have been missed, rinse and repeat. Now the shave should be much nicer, almost a regular shave! You may see treetopping at 1/8" or so above the skin, when passed over your forearm. That is always a good sign. A well developed 8k edge was once considered shave-ready, after all. Sleep on it. Don't get burnt out.

Next day, hit your finisher, same way. Slightly less pressure than on the 8k. Stiction should become very strong, almost unmanageable. Don't let it suck the razor down hard on the stone. That basically creates "auto-pressure" and you could make a bit of fin edge. This is the "over-honing" that many honers speak of, especially old school guys. Pull strokes and short x strokes don't have this effect, or I should say not as strongly, so again, when stiction gets strong, shift to short x strokes. Finally, rinse your stone thoroughly and hone with shave lather or a dish soap solution, the lightest pressure you can manage. You are setting up a resilient buffer layer between stone and blade, reducing scratch depth and steel removed to bare minimum, almost zero. Plenty of laps here. You should get some treetopping at 1/4" above the skin. Your shave should be rather good following this stage. Remember to verify visually, too. If stiction is getting too strong, give it 3 or 4 spine leading laps and a couple of pull strokes. At this point it is difficult to improve the edge further, just make sure you aren't building a big fin edge or worse, a wire edge.

A note on treetopping. Yeah it is a favorite test of mine. It is USEFUL, but not the final word in edge quality by any means. It does tell you when your edge has improved, with one exception. At the bevel setting stage you may get quite a bit of treetopping ability, but this is due to the micro-saw nature of the coarse edge. Treetopping may well completely stop at the 3k stage, and resume with difficulty at the 8k stage. At the 12k stage, you should get a couple of hairs with every pass at 1/4" above the skin. There will be some pinging if the razor is thinner than about 1/4 hollow. It will give perceptible disturbance to the hair root. the "super treetop", where the blade soundlessly severs practically every hair it encounters with zero disturbance to the hair base, will not happen, most likely, after a 12k synth finisher, so don't expect that. Finally, YMMV very much, depending on stroke speed, angle, and hair texture. You have to dial this in for yourself. The main thing is by the 8k stage, treetopping should be showing you that you are making progress. Same with HHT, or any other sharpness test. These tests are simply more convenient than having a shave or several shaves during a honing session. The real test is how does it shave. The visual is also important. Even more so than a tactile sharpness test, but still not the final word. Visual examination will tell you if it is worth trying a shave or not, and absolute failure to treetop also probably means no sense lathering up your face just yet.

Because I put on tape after getting some spinewear, there is a double bevel but the bevel that matters, looks even across. It passes the thumbnail test and cuts hair but again, there is that hesitation. I'll take a careful look at it again

 

[Timeclo]

One thing that’s a good method for detecting areas that aren’t touching the stone is doing some work at 1.5K in your case and immediately going to the 12k for around 20-30 half-strokes. You’ll see right away what areas are untouched. I’ve found this to be more truthful than the Sharpie because it won’t wash off. This may provide a clear picture of possible geometry issues.

This might be a good one. My guess is that it'll produce a somewhat of a even bevel across except for the toe and the heel, which I compensate doing the rolling X strokes. I'll give it a shot.

 

[lightfoot]

This might be a good one. My guess is that it'll produce a somewhat of a even bevel across except for the toe and the heel, which I compensate doing the rolling X strokes. I'll give it a shot.

Yeah as long as you keep in mind it’s just to get a read on the edge. Definitely not a proper progression.

 

[Timeclo]

One thing that’s a good method for detecting areas that aren’t touching the stone is doing some work at 1.5K in your case and immediately going to the 12k for around 20-30 half-strokes. You’ll see right away what areas are untouched. I’ve found this to be more truthful than the Sharpie because it won’t wash off. This may provide a clear picture of possible geometry issues.

So this test was pretty helpful in recognizing how the un-flat this blade is.

One side of the edge, the 12k hit about 80% of the mid section, leaving the toe and the heel.

On the other side of the edge, the 12k hit about 70% of the mid section. Towards the heel, there was like 20% missing and only top half of the bevel hitting the stone. Toward the toe, there was about 10 % between the mid and the toe not hitting the stone at all and the corner hitting the stone.

This was after 30 half-strokes on each side. Afterwards, I incorporated X strokes and Rolling x strokes and that helped hit all the bevel.

Not the easiest razor to hone but I might try my narrow soft/hard Ark hone on this one.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yup, it is warped, only a slight warp based on what you describe, but you have Known that since post 12.

Do not do straight strokes and do not hone on a narrow hone you will create a frown and still not get the whole bevel honed.

Likely you need to do a rolling X stroke, only on the concave side you roll up and roll down on the convex side.

If you use a rolling X stroke and roll both sides up, like you would a smile, you will never get the convex side honed, even on a narrow hone.

The Lewis is an excellent video on how to use a rolling X stroke to hone a smiling razor, NOT a warped razor. It says so in the title.

Ink the bevels do one lap and post photos of both sides, to better advise you.

 

[Timeclo]

So I took out my 8 by 2 Soft/Hard Ark combo and did some honing with my Geneva razor. Starting on the Soft Ark, it's actually making some difference and took away the hesitation when cutting. I did some X strokes and rolling X strokes on the stone and after a while, I was noticing some difference compared to the Shapton 1.5k.

Moving onto the Hard Ark, I didn't notice too much of a difference but maybe in the striation. It's becoming more hazy but I can still see some of the scratches from the Soft Ark. My plan is to stay on the Hard Ark for a bit longer and finish on the Coticule with some light slurry.

Thanks everyone for the advices and tips but I can't follow all of them. I'm going to pick and choose the methods that makes the most sense to me and try one at a time. So far, using the narrow hone has made the most difference to the Geneva razor.