About ready to trade the Coti in for synths...
- Thread starter Munxcub
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That was and still is the most frustrating part of honing for me. One slip of the hand/wrist and I have to back track.
That's all I heard
lol
You shouldn't hone when drunk or hung over! It takes a steady hand!
OP, how does your razor shave? My razor still doesn't pass the HHT even though I honed it on my coti, but it shaves just fine.
I think that as long as your razor is shaving well, don't worry about achieving some legendary goal of sharpness.
I think that as long as your razor is shaving well, don't worry about achieving some legendary goal of sharpness.
Stay with it Munx!
You've gotten great advice from gents that know how to make a coticule talk... Once you get it, you'll be so glad you did.
You've gotten great advice from gents that know how to make a coticule talk... Once you get it, you'll be so glad you did.
- Thread starter
- #46
Gull, razor shaves like hell.
I was curious about just how much damage one blown stroke did and I figured it was as bad as you make it sound. blargh.
Chris that TI paste arrived yesterday, should I find some felt or canvas to apply it to? Should I apply it to one side of my linen (or maybe it's canvas... it's pretty stiff) strop keeping one side clean? (both sides seem to be the same)
Hopefully I can hit the stones today if I'm off work early enough.
Thanks for the advice so far, I don't think my stones are unfit for razors, I got them from Jarrod with specific qualities in mind. I trust he did me proud and my newbishness is what's getting in the way.
I'm not going to throw in the towel, I was just getting really frustrated and needed to vent and hash it out with people who get it. (my wife doesn't quite get it... just that I'm getting frustrated)
I have a few razors, I just wanted to stick with one and get it right, then move on to others. (kinda like learning to wet shave, limit the variables right?)
I was curious about just how much damage one blown stroke did and I figured it was as bad as you make it sound. blargh.
Chris that TI paste arrived yesterday, should I find some felt or canvas to apply it to? Should I apply it to one side of my linen (or maybe it's canvas... it's pretty stiff) strop keeping one side clean? (both sides seem to be the same)
Hopefully I can hit the stones today if I'm off work early enough.
Thanks for the advice so far, I don't think my stones are unfit for razors, I got them from Jarrod with specific qualities in mind. I trust he did me proud and my newbishness is what's getting in the way.
I'm not going to throw in the towel, I was just getting really frustrated and needed to vent and hash it out with people who get it. (my wife doesn't quite get it... just that I'm getting frustrated)
I have a few razors, I just wanted to stick with one and get it right, then move on to others. (kinda like learning to wet shave, limit the variables right?)
Chris, I wouldn't apply that TI paste to a good strop. When you learn to get good edges, you probably won't need it any longer and then you'll be left with a good strop covered in the stuff.
If anything, I'd suggest applying it to a piece of blue-jean material cut into a strop shape, or any old piece of smooth cotton cloth you can make work. For me, it was just a temporary measure, i'd even bought a good linen strop to apply it to, but quickly moved past that point.
A word about pressure, if I may:
Use it. Coti's seem to perform best when some pressure is applied, particularly in the earlier stages. Lighten up as you move to completion until your final passes are made with less than the weight of the blade. As I think about it, I might describe my process as using three discrete stages of pressure; heavy pressure for the initial bevel setting and the first dilution or so, then onto medium pressure to the end of dilutions. At the water stage, I make my first set of half-strokes with a little less than medium pressure, and then lighten to my very lightest at the x-strokes stage. I try to make swift, light and smooth x-strokes, and probably as many as 100.
As well, I've found that stropping needs some good pressure too. Don't be shy. I tend to pull the strop really taught and apply some "authority" to the motions. A feather light touch won't bring the HHT up enough, and I've seen jumps from HHT0 to 5 from stropping alone, so don't under-estimate the value of a good and proper stropping.
When i was at the stage you're at, I would always do two or three trips back to the stone with thinner and thinner slurry. It is easy, I think, to have too thick slurry, and if you don't apply enough pressure to actively grind the bevel faces away, I think it's can lead to more slurry dulling than you gain in keenness. It's a delicate balance, and i don't fully understand it myself.
If anything, I'd suggest applying it to a piece of blue-jean material cut into a strop shape, or any old piece of smooth cotton cloth you can make work. For me, it was just a temporary measure, i'd even bought a good linen strop to apply it to, but quickly moved past that point.
A word about pressure, if I may:
Use it. Coti's seem to perform best when some pressure is applied, particularly in the earlier stages. Lighten up as you move to completion until your final passes are made with less than the weight of the blade. As I think about it, I might describe my process as using three discrete stages of pressure; heavy pressure for the initial bevel setting and the first dilution or so, then onto medium pressure to the end of dilutions. At the water stage, I make my first set of half-strokes with a little less than medium pressure, and then lighten to my very lightest at the x-strokes stage. I try to make swift, light and smooth x-strokes, and probably as many as 100.
As well, I've found that stropping needs some good pressure too. Don't be shy. I tend to pull the strop really taught and apply some "authority" to the motions. A feather light touch won't bring the HHT up enough, and I've seen jumps from HHT0 to 5 from stropping alone, so don't under-estimate the value of a good and proper stropping.
When i was at the stage you're at, I would always do two or three trips back to the stone with thinner and thinner slurry. It is easy, I think, to have too thick slurry, and if you don't apply enough pressure to actively grind the bevel faces away, I think it's can lead to more slurry dulling than you gain in keenness. It's a delicate balance, and i don't fully understand it myself.
I sometimes use another step before stropping on canvas/leather, but after the coticule. I strop on a piece of 3" x 8" felt sprayed with .25 micron diamond spray. Tip came from Larry Andro, who told me Lynn Abrams advised him. Only 4 or 5 strokes- more may dull the edge.
If you want to try a piece let me know. I have plenty of felt and spray and it fits in a regular envelope.
Anyone else doing this?
If you want to try a piece let me know. I have plenty of felt and spray and it fits in a regular envelope.
Anyone else doing this?
- Thread starter
- #49
Sounds good Chris and that bit about pressure was intuitively what I wanted to do, as it made sense to me and what I was trying to accomplish.
I really hope I get home early enough to hit the stones today.
Where would you recommend the TI paste come in? If I've gone back and forth and it's close but not there, hit the paste, then back to finish strokes on the coti?
I really hope I get home early enough to hit the stones today.
Where would you recommend the TI paste come in? If I've gone back and forth and it's close but not there, hit the paste, then back to finish strokes on the coti?
- Thread starter
- #50
If I still can't get a usable edge with my cotis, CrOx, TI paste and patience, I just might have to take you up on that. heh
I alwaysed used it after the stone. Often in the middle of a shave
I would do my damndest to get a good edge and if it wasn't shaving well, I'd strop about 10 laps on the TI pasted strop, finish on leather and resume the shave. I can't think of a single time it didn't bring the keenness up enough to finish the shave. I did find it a little on the harsh side though, maybe ten laps was too many? (use a very light hand with this stuff though; it uses Aluminum Oxide, which is second only to diamond on the Mhos scale)
- Thread starter
- #52
I alwaysed used it after the stone. Often in the middle of a shave
I would do my damndest to get a good edge and if it wasn't shaving well, I'd strop about 10 laps on the TI pasted strop, finish on leather and resume the shave. I can't think of a single time it didn't bring the keenness up enough to finish the shave. I did find it a little on the harsh side though, maybe ten laps was too many? (use a very light hand with this stuff though; it uses Aluminum Oxide, which is second only to diamond on the Mhos scale)
Sounds good. Thanks Chris. I'll have to make me a denim strop out of some old jeans. I was thinking of looking around for some material to use to add a second component to some pieces of leather I have here.
I'm new to sharpening razors, but have used waterstones to sharpen plane blades and chisels for many years. I have two suggestions that may or may not be pertinent to your frustration, but I hope it helps.
First, the newer blades - especially the Solingen type blades are much harder than the vintage blades and are much more tedious to sharpen. If you can, try learning to sharpen an old junker and it will teach you volumes. Trying to sharpen a new Dovo or TI is more difficult...not impossible, but more difficult.
Second, the bevel setting is so key to getting a perfect edge that all sequential steps after that will reflect the quality of the bevel. Not only is the DMT EF (Green) stone easy to use, the quality of the bevel is better than I can get with a 1K King. Once the bevel is set, use whatever you want to get to shave ready. (Don't get the DMT near your nat though)
First, the newer blades - especially the Solingen type blades are much harder than the vintage blades and are much more tedious to sharpen. If you can, try learning to sharpen an old junker and it will teach you volumes. Trying to sharpen a new Dovo or TI is more difficult...not impossible, but more difficult.
Second, the bevel setting is so key to getting a perfect edge that all sequential steps after that will reflect the quality of the bevel. Not only is the DMT EF (Green) stone easy to use, the quality of the bevel is better than I can get with a 1K King. Once the bevel is set, use whatever you want to get to shave ready. (Don't get the DMT near your nat though)
- Thread starter
- #54
All I have is older blades.
I have been considering getting a DMT for bevel setting/correction, but what do you mean by not getting it near your nat?
I think the first thing you should do, is avoid frustration.
You said you've dulled the razor on a glass object at several attempts. Each time you managed to get it shaving again. That's good. And irrefutable proof that you can set a decent bevel. The very edge only responds with gaining sharpness once your bevel is flat and fully extended. The idea of pre-dulling on glass serves no other idea than to reach a stage where you don't have to second guess your bevel. If it shaves are hair again, it's good to go. Period.
Where you struggle, is with getting the bevel keen enough. It's where everyone struggles that needs to learn Coticule honing. It'll come to you, but not while you're all frustrated.
There are several options to save a somewhat lacking Coticule edge and turn it into a good shaver. The CrO on balsa suggestion is probably one of the best (and cheapest).
Dovo red paste on a paddle strop works too. So does the TI paste.
Personally, I always turned a lacking Dilucot edge into a Unicot. Just tape the spine (make sure the tape is at least 0.15mm thick), give the Coticule 2 rubs with a slurry stone, 20 light X-strokes, rinse everything well and finish with 30 light X-strokes. Remove tape and strop well.
This is not between you and your Coticule. It's a dead piece of rock. It doesn't care about your frustration.
Kind regards,
Bart.
You said you've dulled the razor on a glass object at several attempts. Each time you managed to get it shaving again. That's good. And irrefutable proof that you can set a decent bevel. The very edge only responds with gaining sharpness once your bevel is flat and fully extended. The idea of pre-dulling on glass serves no other idea than to reach a stage where you don't have to second guess your bevel. If it shaves are hair again, it's good to go. Period.
Where you struggle, is with getting the bevel keen enough. It's where everyone struggles that needs to learn Coticule honing. It'll come to you, but not while you're all frustrated.
There are several options to save a somewhat lacking Coticule edge and turn it into a good shaver. The CrO on balsa suggestion is probably one of the best (and cheapest).
Dovo red paste on a paddle strop works too. So does the TI paste.
Personally, I always turned a lacking Dilucot edge into a Unicot. Just tape the spine (make sure the tape is at least 0.15mm thick), give the Coticule 2 rubs with a slurry stone, 20 light X-strokes, rinse everything well and finish with 30 light X-strokes. Remove tape and strop well.
This is not between you and your Coticule. It's a dead piece of rock. It doesn't care about your frustration.
Kind regards,
Bart.
- Thread starter
- #56
Yeah I tried the Unicot edge once before and it was only marginally better. But that was right at the beginning, maybe I should try it again now.
very good advice from bart. with dilucot you get one clear shot, you either get there or you don't. unicot is the cheapest and best option if you want to experiance a coticule edge, still takes practice but much more consistant RESULT.
i tryed cro.ox and it will work on balsa hone not as well on strop. the ti paste as criss mentioned is also extremly consistant. i would put my house on it that if your coticule is lacking keenes 10 to 20 light laps on a cotton or canvas strop will work. it does'nt leave a harsh edge , infact i find it leaves a soft smooth edge. I find its better than cro .ox . just try it and you will see drastic differance on a under parr edge. diamond spray and paste will work but can lead to a harsh edge . i will be realy interested to see how you get on with your next honing.
as wdrx mentions if you hit the magical spot on your hone you won't need paste , this is very true , in my experiance a good coticule edge realy deliver s a magical edge , i have eschers, thurys, 12k nanaiwas , they don't compare to my best coticule edges, and i realy mean that. no ofense to any one else that uses these hone s , the coticule is an amazing stone .
i tryed cro.ox and it will work on balsa hone not as well on strop. the ti paste as criss mentioned is also extremly consistant. i would put my house on it that if your coticule is lacking keenes 10 to 20 light laps on a cotton or canvas strop will work. it does'nt leave a harsh edge , infact i find it leaves a soft smooth edge. I find its better than cro .ox . just try it and you will see drastic differance on a under parr edge. diamond spray and paste will work but can lead to a harsh edge . i will be realy interested to see how you get on with your next honing.
as wdrx mentions if you hit the magical spot on your hone you won't need paste , this is very true , in my experiance a good coticule edge realy deliver s a magical edge , i have eschers, thurys, 12k nanaiwas , they don't compare to my best coticule edges, and i realy mean that. no ofense to any one else that uses these hone s , the coticule is an amazing stone .
- Thread starter
- #58
Well I just hit the hones again. I gave it 5 light half strokes with slurry stone. Could just barely see some milkyness in the water. Did sets of 20/side half strokes, light pressure at first, gradually going to little/no pressure. I would add a drop of water every 2-3 sets at first, and after ~5 dilutions had to go to a drop every set to keep it from drying out. once it was down to pretty much just water, I splashed some more water on, did another half dozen or so sets, and then 50 x-strokes. full rinse and then 100 more x-strokes, giving it a good splash of water every 25. It was violining hard right off the coti (usually got this after stropping).
Stropped it up 60/60 linen/leather and took one of my wife's fine hairs from her brush (I know I'm giving myself a hard HHT, but if it passes it's gotta be extra sharp right?) and the first spot I try cuts it clean with a gentle "snick" sound, no significant catch feel, just pop with sound. Other places would catch a little, or split, whatever. Tried passing it through the leg hairs at midpoint and it was cleaving them down with little to no tugging.
Very promising result indeed! Might go back to the stones for a one wipe with slurry and repeat it all.
Thanks for all the advice and putting up with my snivelling pity party!
Stropped it up 60/60 linen/leather and took one of my wife's fine hairs from her brush (I know I'm giving myself a hard HHT, but if it passes it's gotta be extra sharp right?) and the first spot I try cuts it clean with a gentle "snick" sound, no significant catch feel, just pop with sound. Other places would catch a little, or split, whatever. Tried passing it through the leg hairs at midpoint and it was cleaving them down with little to no tugging.
Very promising result indeed! Might go back to the stones for a one wipe with slurry and repeat it all.
Thanks for all the advice and putting up with my snivelling pity party!
Munxcub,
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thats the hht you want after stropping , a nice soft pop where the hair lands on the edge and gently cuts it in half, sounds promising and prooves that you have improved the edge . just keep tinkering .
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