A second look at the Iwasaki honing guide

[Fuzzy Chops]

So what is that and how do we deal with it?

Some people believe that is a perfect edge. In fact, it is not that much sharper than a Gillete Fusion (see below).




The only way to deal with it is to introduce micro-convexity and increase the apex angle while maintained the edge width (or apex radius). This is easily achieved with CrOx.

 

[Seraphim]

So what is that and how do we deal with it?

Alex still no comment on smiling blades?

Maestro Livi takes care of it at the bevel setting stage apparently:

 

[Steve56]

Interesting - I hadn't seen that one so thanks for the post. I notice he also pulls the spine off the strop and rolls the blade a bit when palm stropping, which I assume is adding the "convexivity". BTW, I admire his palm stropping. If I did it like that it would not be pretty.

Cheers, Steve

Maestro Livi takes care of it at the bevel setting stage apparently:

 

[Brooksie967]

Thanks for the vid. Wicked looking razor too! I noticed he doesn't really seem too concerned about washing the razor between stones.

Man that was a fast progression.

 

[ACorazza]

I also noticed hes a little heavy handed, compared to me at least kind of slapping the razor into to the strop and even some of the hones. I always thought you needed to be gentle when finishing am I wrong or is it kind of YMMV

 

[Seraphim]

Personally, I would never hone a razor the way he does.

 

[Gamma]

Based on that image in post 39 - I would call that a foil edge.
Id have to feel it to know for sure though. I try to not judge edges based on pix 'cause I don't shave with pix.

You can align a foil edge easily enough, and if its not too extended it could last for a while.
Otherwise it will fail, fold, etc.
The way to deal with it is to remove it and then hone it correctly.

I think Livi's a bit over the top with his parlor-trick sharpening antics myself.
Even so - I'd guess he puts a good edge on a blade.

 

[Sejanus]

Every time I see the Livi honing/hand stropping video I cringe and wonder how it works as well as it apparently does (not having tried a Livi razor). Crazy to watch though!

The discussion on Iwasaki's honing guide has been interesting. For some reason (random or not) I know after I read it the first time my honing actually improved. I need to hone a razor soon (if I ever get some time to do it!) and may play around with some of the ideas Alex has put forward. Experimentation never hurt right?

 

[Gamma]

"Great things are learned through experimentation."

 

[Brooksie967]

"Great things are learned through experimentation."

X infinity and beyond

 

[Doc226]

I palm strop all the time, never had a problem

There are so many things Livi does "worng"

He flips over the edge, he strops like he hates the razor, he lifts the spine-yet he get is done

 

[Steve56]

I palm strop too and never had a problem, but not like that. I strop "edge over" too, just always the way I did it and can't tell you why. As long as the blade is flat I don't think it matters. That said, I've usually used a flat strop rather than a hanging one.

I was chatting with my barber, and in barber school she said they taught you to never let the razor leave the stone or strop, or "spine over" as most people do it.

its my impression that using edge over you can use a different grip and put more pressure on the razor, if that matters at all.

Cheers, Steve

 

[Bayamontate]

Livi is old-school, as exhibited by his technique, but he probably hones more razors in one week than most do in one month. I've honed many of his razors (some regrinds) and the honewear is actually minimal and several that I honed right after him showed nicely formed bevels and consistent scratch patterns. IMO, there is a pattern to his madness. What I find interesting is his use of CrOx, excessive but given his progression logical. It works for him.

 

[Gamma]

I do what feels right to me.
Stropping, spine stays on the leather. Blade Flip/flops.
Honing strokes for me are altogether different - no doubt the result of me learning to hone without watching videos or reading about the 'rules' first.

 

[alx gilmore]

Brooksie & Fuzzy
B.- I am thinking that with smileing edges you will need to just adapt a gentle rolling type of joining stroke. Only a couple of my razors have really flat or straight edges and the joining I have done with them was easier, but with others that were not so straight it was facilitated by turning towards a window and with the light reflected off the wet surface with the hone in one hand I gently place the razors heel of the edge and with some manipulation try to cover at some point the whole edge from heel to toe.

F.- Are those your SEM photos? I play a lot of golf and I tell my students when they have a problem to think of golf as just one error after another, the key to scoreing is to minimize the effect of those errors. Life is like that too, we just make it up and make the best of it as we go along. I have 3 grown boys, there was no book when they were born that someone gave me to spell the next 30 years out page by page. It has just been one error after another, and I learn by making mistakes, so in that way a mistake is like a gift.

The SEM photos are wonderful and they demonstrate how imperfect (if you look close enough) are mans creations. We strive for perfection but in hindsight or really up close we are so far off. Honing a razor is such a non-science. Let's face it, the endless combinations of grit, steel, handpressure, etc. will put a spin on a blade. So we try to minimize the variables and one way to do this is to have a routine --- and Maestro Livi demonstrates this perfectly. His technique can be picked apart piece by piece but he is on track because every razor is honed in basically the same sequence so in the end he has at least come close to an acceptable known result each and every time. Good or bad, sharp or less sharp he has a starting point and a rhythm that he can follow to an end result, and from that he can fine tune as he goes along. A repeatable swing.

Personally I like the edge in Photo #41. It is not so very sharp, but that can be adjusted and fine tuned most likely with less than 5-10 light strokes on the hone. It is the geometry that attracts me, it looks solid and longlasting. The edge in #39 is sharper, but for how long, and once that foil is folded back and forth enough times it will break off and what is the edge going to look like then. This will be an unknown edge that most likely will need a touch up. With edge #41 if you or I can coax or nudge the edge just a bit finer to be "sharp enough" it looks like it would last a long time and you could adjust your pre-shave routine to max out the shaving expreience.

You see, this is my gripe with the nano grits. There are very fine, in fact so fine they boarder on too fine. I believe in theory that there is a tipping point where an edge is too sharp, and so much so that the limits of the steel molecules are stretched to hold together under normal and repeated daily shaving. In my book a so called "touch up" on a pasted strop is considered a honing session. If you have to touch up your razor after each or every other shave then you, in my book have only gotten one shave from that edge. This is the beauty of the natural stones from asia or europe or the U.S., they create longer lasting and sharp enough edges for even the toughest beards.


This joining technique is actually an attempt to fine tune the geometry of the edge. The edge being the most fragile and therefore the most vulnerable to deformation portion of the blade. As you can see in my photos a flick of the wrist as in joining can more perfectly define that edge. This can be good if you can thereafter refine the sharpness element with your natural stone as I prefer, or with crox or diamond dust or whatever without overdoing the process which will surely encourage another reformation of the false edge or what ever you choose to call it. In my opinion geometry is the key, and the notion to minimize errors by preserving the flat of the bevels as far into the honing process as you can manage, after that it is any mans game as to finishing techniques, but this joining idea as Maestro Livi shows can provide a platform to finish on that has some solid steel as it base.

Alx

 

[Gamma]

Well said Alex, Ty.

 

[Fuzzy Chops]

Personally I like the edge in Photo #41.

Alx

That is a Gillette Fusion.

First Jeremy likes Coticules, now Alex likes Cartridges.
What next? Keith will be honing Gold Dollars on lapping film!




Experimentation is a waste of time unless you have an open mind and are prepared to disprove what you believe.
If you think you know everything, how can you hope to learn anything?

 

[Bayamontate]

Experimentation is a waste of time unless you have an open mind and are prepared to disprove what you believe.
If you think you know everything, how can you hope to learn anything?

Post of the day.

 

[Gamma]

Experimentation is a waste of time unless you have an open mind and are prepared to disprove what you believe.
If you think you know everything, how can you hope to learn anything?

Trying new things doesn't neccessarily mean that you are challenging someone or something, or that there's a need to disprove anything.

Sometimes, often actually - its just for the sake of seeing what happens.

As far as I'm concerned - for myself - experimentation is never a waste of time.

 

[Tierdaen]

It's interesting (if a little sad) how much disdain there is in these communities for the word "science".