Slickness

So I read a comment by Ambrose stating his horsehide strop doesn't polish his edge up as well as his latigo. And I've been reading a lot of questions about what exactly stropping does.

Personally, I think it both removes oxidation at the edge and realigns any burrs at the edge (if they even exist).

So it got me thinking about whether it even mattered how slick the leather is if you use linen first. It seems intuitive that the linen/cotton would abrade away all the corrosion and probably realign whatever its capable of. So then what exactly does the leather do afterwards? I think we all agree that shaving off a leather stropped razor is (if only slightly) better than shaving off a linen only razor. Is it that the smoother surface contact more of the razor's edge and thus realigns more burrs and gets rid of more oxidation? Maybe it just cleans the edge of any debris.

Which brings me to the point. We all know some leathers have more draw than others. Would it really matter how much draw a strop has if you strop on linen first? Does a strop with more draw really require less strokes than a horsehide one?

Thoughts?

I often wonder if the draw is more an issue for the user than the razor. In my experience both seem to do the job very well, higher draw leathers and lower draw leathers.
What seems to differ though is whether the user likes the feel of stropping with the different textures, You get different feedback, a fast slick, gliding stroke feels good to some, to others they expect a slow "brakes on" type resistance.
I think personal taste is the largest factor here. Each hide varies greatly, sometimes my Latigo arrives quite hard and slick, other times it is soft and has a lot of resistance. I work to soften the harder stuff so it has more draw.
My horsehide is the same, usually it has an almost glossy finish, quite hard and fast. occasionally it is a more matt or eggshell type finish with a slight resistance.
I can't really say from my own experience one really does better than the other as a rule. I will say that out of customers who own both, some find the latigo better, others find the horse better. Same with the cloth, some prefer linen, some prefer cotton. The next fellow prefers just the opposite.
Tony

I like using both Latigo and Horsehide. Sometimes Latigo followed by Horsehide, other times one of the two by itself. I haven't done any sort of comparison such as using one straight for a week stropped on the horsehide follow by a week being stropped on the latigo.

Personally, I don't want to study all the mystery out of it. (For the same reason I don't have a microscope to look at edges.)

I was speaking to a lady who has been in the leather industry for thirty five years, making many leather articles.

I asked which she thought was the better for a strop, horse hide or cow hide.

She said the animal was of no real importance. It is purely down to the quality of the leather and how fine the nap is. The finer the nap, the better the strop. She said you can find fine napped leather from horse or cow. The clever trick is to find some good quality leather and somebody who knows what to do with it.

That dispelled all my knowledge about strops and leather into the rubbish bin in two seconds.

I've found it is usually worth listening to people who have been in the business for many years.

English said:

I was speaking to a lady who has been in the leather industry for thirty five years, making many leather articles.

I asked which she thought was the better for a strop, horse hide or cow hide.

She said the animal was of no real importance. It is purely down to the quality of the leather and how fine the nap is. The finer the nap, the better the strop. She said you can find fine napped leather from horse or cow. The clever trick is to find some good quality leather and somebody who knows what to do with it.

That dispelled all my knowledge about strops and leather into the rubbish bin in two seconds.

I've found it is usually worth listening to people who have been in the business for many years.

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Exactly. For a while I was on this kick where I wanted to collect a strop from every critter that has been used for strops and I had about 10 of them before I gave away most. They all did the job just fine and equally so. They felt different but that is just a preference thing and I think guys equate that to the job they do.

I think the reason Horse is so well touted is because back in the day most barbers used it because they used a strop multiple times every day and horse lasted the longest.

Well, horse is definitely pretty darn fun to strop with!

I found nirvana going to a Ruprazor Paladin in horsehide . Sure like it over my Tony Miller 3" Artisian cow leather . YMMV of course .


cityjim

leighton said:

So I read a comment by Ambrose stating his horsehide strop doesn't polish his edge up as well as his latigo.

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I think this is true.

leighton said:

So it got me thinking about whether it even mattered how slick the leather is if you use linen first. It seems intuitive that the linen/cotton would abrade away all the corrosion and probably realign whatever its capable of. So then what exactly does the leather do afterwards? I think we all agree that shaving off a leather stropped razor is (if only slightly) better than shaving off a linen only razor. Is it that the smoother surface contact more of the razor's edge and thus realigns more burrs and gets rid of more oxidation? Maybe it just cleans the edge of any debris.

Which brings me to the point. We all know some leathers have more draw than others. Would it really matter how much draw a strop has if you strop on linen first? Does a strop with more draw really require less strokes than a horsehide one?

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You're on the right track. The linen abrades away the corrosion as well as some of the underlying steel, though it's possible that it merely draws out the steel somewhat. There is an article from a 1929 Popular Mechanics where they built a 3000x optical microscope and some elaborate fixtures, and examined freshly honed, used, and stropped edges, and this is what they saw through their microscope.

I think the cloth is rough enough and vibrates the edge enough that it leaves the edge out of alignment, and the leather straightens this out. Smoother softer leather works better for this because it makes better contact with the edge, and leather with less draw works better for this because at this stage of the game lighter is better.

No, I don't think it matters how much draw the strop has once the linen has done its job, at least not in a positive way. I think the recent popularity of latigo is related to the lack of use of the linen - at one time not so long ago it was "common knowledge" that the linen didn't do anything at all. It took the Stropping is King thread on SRP with honedright and puffah to really clue some of us in on what the linen really does, and started me on that experiment where I tried to find out how well I could maintain a razor with just a strop and no hones.

I prefer horsehide myself, though this is because I have just never liked heavy-drawing strops. I made some posts on this awhile back but my google-fu is failing me ATM. But basically, I think the significant purposes of the strop are threefold (in roughly chronological order):

1. remove oxidation
2. remove or draw out the underlying steel to restore sharpness
3. align the edge like a knife steel

I think latigo performs the polishing steps (1) and (2) better than horsehide, but horsehide performs (3) better than latigo. However, the traditional strop has two sides to it, and the linen side performs (1) and (2) better than latigo. There are a few guys (honedright, puffah, couple of others with 20+ yrs experience) that can keep a razor sharp for a year at a time using only an unpasted strop, and all of them use a linen/horsehide strop which is confirmation though not proof of this theory. For me a latigo strop will keep a razor going about 7 shaves, while a horsehide strop will keep it going for about 4. However, linen+horsehide will keep it going for many months, though I'm not at the level of honedright and puffah - my longest-lived edges have about 4 months worth of shaves on them, but they are still going.

As with so many things, however, YMMV.

Very reasonable assumptions in my opinion.

Tony

I'm relatively new to this scene, so take my opinion as one derived from what I've read (mostly) and experienced (slightly).

My first strop was a TM Red Latigo, and it worked well for me when I first started. In fact, I didn't have any interest in getting anything other than that strop until I bought a lot that included a TM Horsehide/Linen combo. I've since turned to my RL strop very infrequently because my shaves are smoother now off of the HH. I've done a lot of reading on strops and I think Mark has pretty well summed up what I've come to think (learned) on the matter.

I think the assumptions and conclusions are in line with the last two hundred years of straight razor shaving and so they should be.

In the world of straight razor shaving, I find there is no real new knowledge. Yes the world has become global and hones that used to be "in Country" or "in Region" are now Internationally available

One new variable and welcome confusion has been the introduction of
"Latigo" which has been explained away very logically above.

I will be sticking with linen (not cotton) and horse hide (preferrably shell leather).

I don't put my head in the sand and I have tried many hones and many strops and I will continue to do so. But to be frank for comfort and a daily shave, the forums have not added "new knowledge". Linen is linen and not cotton and horse hide is not the same as cow hide.

The one thing that I abhor however is when guys who have been using a razor for a few years claim to have reinvented the wheel, when infact they have just discovered the way things have been for years.

One of the strengths of this quality forum is that the guys here don't actually do that.

It really is a pleasure to read these threads.

English said:

I think the assumptions and conclusions are in line with the last two hundred years of straight razor shaving and so they should be.

In the world of straight razor shaving, I find there is no real new knowledge. Yes the world has become global and hones that used to be "in Country" or "in Region" are now Internationally available

One new variable and welcome confusion has been the introduction of
"Latigo" which has been explained away very logically above.

I will be sticking with linen (not cotton) and horse hide (preferrably shell leather).

I don't put my head in the sand and I have tried many hones and many strops and I will continue to do so. But to be frank for comfort and a daily shave, the forums have not added "new knowledge". Linen is linen and not cotton and horse hide is not the same as cow hide.

The one thing that I abhor however is when guys who have been using a razor for a few years claim to have reinvented the wheel, when infact they have just discovered the way things have been for years.

One of the strengths of this quality forum is that the guys here don't actually do that.

It really is a pleasure to read these threads.

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Perhaps.

But if you can build a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door!

While not eveyone seems to like the heavier draw of latigo is is still my top seller, 4 to 1 vs horsehide.

SRD, Vintage, Classic, Hand American and others have all now jumped on the Latigo bandwagon so someone out there loves this material.

Cowhide strops still out number horsehide in what is offered these days mainly because of the shortage of horsehide. Dovo, Jemico, Illinois, Bismark, etc.... are all using cowhide and making pretty respectable strops.

I think myself, Kenrup, Hand American and the Japanese fellow are the only ones commercially making horsehide strops at this point.

I still find different razor behave differently on different materials, both leather and cloth. Some like cotton, hemp, linen, felt or even the synthetics used as the generic "linen" now days.

Tony

I have been experimenting with this myself alot recently.

I find that the red latigo really aligns and polishes the edge very well. I then like to give it a an extra high polish on the horsehide. This seems to be the best combo for me so far. Latigo alone is great, the horsehide alone is ok, one after the other is fantastic.

Now I also find that a harder finish and a tight nap works the best over a softer suede like nap regardless if its fast draw or a slow one. So in my experiments it really doesnt matter what leather is used. YMMV

As for the linen or cotton issue I have not a clue, im still experimenting with that.

Now Tony I wanted to ask you this can you produce a horsehide that is very hard and fast? If so I would be extremely interested in one or if I could send you the one you already made me and apply that hard finish to it ?

I have 3 TM strops already and a few vintage ones and I really do love them all especially my TM strops with the barbers end

Ambrose,
The feel of horsehide varies alot. I have some quite stiff, frim pieces wioth a slick feel that may fit what you describe. others have a more eggshell type finish and may be softer, creating a bit more draw.

Even latigo varies greatly hide to hide. My breaking in process softens it quite a bit but every batch will be different depending on the hide, firm, soft, heavy draw, lighter draw.

Creating a napp actually evens out the variations to some extent, but that is just the surface. The firmness of the strop itself will also affect the draw.

Tony

ambrose said:

I find that the red latigo really aligns and polishes the edge very well. I then like to give it a an extra high polish on the horsehide. This seems to be the best combo for me so far. Latigo alone is great, the horsehide alone is ok, one after the other is fantastic.

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This is my current favorite combination as well. Kind of a best of both worlds approach to strops.

mparker762 said:

I prefer horsehide myself, though this is because I have just never liked heavy-drawing strops. I made some posts on this awhile back but my google-fu is failing me ATM. But basically, I think the significant purposes of the strop are threefold (in roughly chronological order):

1. remove oxidation
2. remove or draw out the underlying steel to restore sharpness
3. align the edge like a knife steel

I think latigo performs the polishing steps (1) and (2) better than horsehide, but horsehide performs (3) better than latigo. However, the traditional strop has two sides to it, and the linen side performs (1) and (2) better than latigo. There are a few guys (honedright, puffah, couple of others with 20+ yrs experience) that can keep a razor sharp for a year at a time using only an unpasted strop, and all of them use a linen/horsehide strop which is confirmation though not proof of this theory. For me a latigo strop will keep a razor going about 7 shaves, while a horsehide strop will keep it going for about 4. However, linen+horsehide will keep it going for many months, though I'm not at the level of honedright and puffah - my longest-lived edges have about 4 months worth of shaves on them, but they are still going.

As with so many things, however, YMMV.

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Is latigo quicker than linen though not better?

TstebinsB said:

Is latigo quicker than linen though not better?

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In my opinion, and experience, latigo could never take the place of a canvas/linen strop. It just does not have the same characteristics.


EDIT:
I think the idea is that the latigo to HH can be used as part of a progression, just like with honing. And just like with honing, if you don't have a 1K stone (or canvas/linen in this case) somewhere in your arsenal, trying to get where you want to be with just a 4K/8K will be a bit more difficult.

professorchaos said:

This is my current favorite combination as well. Kind of a best of both worlds approach to strops.

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Yes my thoughts exactly, I dont think that it could get any better. Any insight on cotton vs linen? Anyone?

ambrose said:

Yes my thoughts exactly, I dont think that it could get any better. Any insight on cotton vs linen? Anyone?

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The TM linen and vintage cloth on my Illinois strop both feel more abrasive than the TM cotton and the webbed nylon fabric from SRD. The linen looks more 'rough on the edges' than the cotton and nylon, however, appearances are deceiving. The linen is probably the better material. I can really feel it working, it gives good feeback and has "draw." Not so much with the TM cotton and nylon webbing. The razor just zips along both of those, doesn't seem to "grip" the material. But as the TM cotton piece is breaking in, the cotton is "gripping" better, so my conclusions as to the TM cotton are probably premature, so don't take my word on it as final. Give me a few more months to give a better review.

Anyway, in the words of Tony, the linen will probably last longer than the cotton. I agree. It feels like a stronger fabric, it shows no signs of wear and it keeps on working.

In sum, the linen seems to be both more pliable and more abrasive than the cotton. The vintage "cloth" is well broken in and feels almost as abrasive as the linen.

The linen is really my go to cloth. I like the cotton, its fun and it looks cleaner, but the linen is where its at. IMHO, YMMV.

edit: This info from Tony's site might prove more insightful than my ramblings on strops.

Tony Miller said:

Smooth cotton is my daily choice as it has a firm, stiff temper but a fine weave making for a smooth surface for daily stropping or the application of fine abrasives. Genuine Linen, being a less processed fiber and the traditional choce for years, is thought to be more abrasive than cotton and may be the choice for those wanting the ultimate material but I feel it would be a waste to then apply pastes over this material. The linen is more difficult to source and has a high waste factor resulting in a higher price for this material.

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