Bourbon Still a Better Value Than Scotch?

TexLaw said:

I was about to say that, if I could find Blanton's for $44, I'd buy out the store and their next shipment, and not for resale!

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No kidding.

+2
Up to $60 here, too...

paintflinger said:

What I don't understand is how all these brand new, unknown bourbons can be released and the people distilling it thinking that I am going to pay 80-100 dollars a bottle. I won't. The don't have a reputation, buying a bottle is a risk, they are clearly capitalizing on the increased interest in bourbon, and finally, I can go out and buy a bottle of Blanton's for $44.

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+1 And here's the rest of the story: most of the craft distillery bourbons aren't made by the craft distillery at all; the age requirements for bourbon are such that the majority of this stuff is sourced whiskey. Most of it is made by Midwest Grain Products (MGP), a massive distilling operation in Indiana. It is then bottled and marked up--way up-- by the craft sellers, usually with a catchy backstory about " Uncle so-and-so's original recipe ...". While there is absolutely nothing wrong with MGP juice, it isn't worth anywhere near the price asked by the boutique whiskey merchants. Phrases on the bottle like "bottled by" or "produced by" have no legal meaning in terms of identifying the actual maker of the whiskey. The only meaningful identifier is "distilled by" which, if present, means that the designated entity actually made the whiskey. You won't find that phrase on most craft label bourbons.

Having said that, there are a few craft bourbons out there that are actually made by the folks putting the label on the bottle, but my experience with them has so far been uninspiring. Local boutique distilling is a great concept, but most of these producers, at least of bourbon, aren't quite there yet. Unlike with beer, where the big industrial brews had become pretty terrible and good craft beer could quickly and readily surpass the mass market quality, big bourbon has generally maintained quality at a very high level. Making a good bourbon requires considerable capital investment in a distillery and aging facility. That, plus the time involved in proper aging makes it very difficult for these small folks to compete with established bourbon producers. When you can get a good, solid bourbon like Evan Williams Black Label for 15 bucks, a young, mediocre "craft" bourbon for $30 or $40 is a pretty hard sell.

I would agree with some of that. I had a somewhat heated discussion with a fellow on that very issue in another forum. He made the assertion that one of my favorites was not distilled by the Co who's name was on the bottle and further argued that distilled by meant nothing. I didn't agree to say the least.

If one is situated in the USA, it is not difficult to argue that Bourbon provides better value than Scotch or Irish spirits. Part of that is obviously transport and distribution costs.

I enjoy many different versions of whisky- but of the ones which I drink, Scotch tends to spend the longest time in cask. Warehousing costs lots of money- quite apart from the evaporation aspect.

sucker_dad said:

I would agree with some of that. I had a somewhat heated discussion with a fellow on that very issue in another forum. He made the assertion that one of my favorites was not distilled by the Co who's name was on the bottle and further argued that distilled by meant nothing. I didn't agree to say the least.

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I don't know the specifics of the brand in question, but you are right (as least as far as I understand the labeling laws): "distilled by ..." on the label means the whiskey must be distilled by the producer so named. For this fellow to try to tell you it means nothing is flat wrong. On the other hand, the common statement "produced by" has no legal meaning and is, IMO, meant to mislead the consumer.

Spang said:

+1 And here's the rest of the story: most of the craft distillery bourbons aren't made by the craft distillery at all; the age requirements for bourbon are such that the majority of this stuff is sourced whiskey. Most of it is made by Midwest Grain Products (MGP), a massive distilling operation in Indiana. It is then bottled and marked up--way up-- by the craft sellers, usually with a catchy backstory about " Uncle so-and-so's original recipe ...". While there is absolutely nothing wrong with MGP juice, it isn't worth anywhere near the price asked by the boutique whiskey merchants. Phrases on the bottle like "bottled by" or "produced by" have no legal meaning in terms of identifying the actual maker of the whiskey. The only meaningful identifier is "distilled by" which, if present, means that the designated entity actually made the whiskey. You won't find that phrase on most craft label bourbons.

Having said that, there are a few craft bourbons out there that are actually made by the folks putting the label on the bottle, but my experience with them has so far been uninspiring. Local boutique distilling is a great concept, but most of these producers, at least of bourbon, aren't quite there yet. Unlike with beer, where the big industrial brews had become pretty terrible and good craft beer could quickly and readily surpass the mass market quality, big bourbon has generally maintained quality at a very high level. Making a good bourbon requires considerable capital investment in a distillery and aging facility. That, plus the time involved in proper aging makes it very difficult for these small folks to compete with established bourbon producers. When you can get a good, solid bourbon like Evan Williams Black Label for 15 bucks, a young, mediocre "craft" bourbon for $30 or $40 is a pretty hard sell.

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You captured my thoughts perfectly.

If we're talking about a class of products and not a particular offering, my general vote is Scotch, as it is - - at present - - a more consistent product.

There are many pricey scotch offerings, such as Macallan 18 at ~ $250 for 750 ml (and costs rising astronomically from there). Yet, those are within the pantheon; slightly better product, for multi-fold price.

By and large, darn-good single malt scotch can be had for WELL under $100 (Macallan 12 at ~ $45; Glendronach 12 at ~ 50).

Bourbon on the other hand is all across the board. There are darn-good bourbons for WELL under $100 (quite frankly, most all darn good bourbons are under this cost- at least in theory, in accord with MSRP). However, there are many bourbons that are well overpriced; a four-year aged bourbon from an upstart company that bottles but doesn't distill, yet charging $50+?!

Also, bourbons don't seem to have as much consistency in quality; age statements are dropping like flies on bottles. You may have really enjoyed A or B bourbon just a few years ago when it was aged ___ years, but now, as demand has gone up, the production process has been shortened, to pump out more supply. Value of what's in the bottle goes down, but price at best remains the same.

IMO, unless we're talking bottom-dollar product (yet still 'tasty,' a la W.L. Weller or Johnnie Walker Red) if one walks into a store with $___ and doesn't know the 'good value this,' or 'poor offering that,' he will, dollar for dollar, have a much better shot of walking out of the store with a superior product when he reaches for the scotch.

To show I'm not biased: I prefer bourbon, but this preference is not based on value or perceived value.

Originally Posted by Spang
+1 And here's the rest of the story: most of the craft distillery bourbons aren't made by the craft distillery at all; the age requirements for bourbon are such that the majority of this stuff is sourced whiskey. Most of it is made by Midwest Grain Products (MGP), a massive distilling operation in Indiana. It is then bottled and marked up--way up-- by the craft sellers, usually with a catchy backstory about " Uncle so-and-so's original recipe ...". While there is absolutely nothing wrong with MGP juice, it isn't worth anywhere near the price asked by the boutique whiskey merchants. Phrases on the bottle like "bottled by" or "produced by" have no legal meaning in terms of identifying the actual maker of the whiskey. The only meaningful identifier is "distilled by" which, if present, means that the designated entity actually made the whiskey. You won't find that phrase on most craft label bourbons.

Having said that, there are a few craft bourbons out there that are actually made by the folks putting the label on the bottle, but my experience with them has so far been uninspiring. Local boutique distilling is a great concept, but most of these producers, at least of bourbon, aren't quite there yet. Unlike with beer, where the big industrial brews had become pretty terrible and good craft beer could quickly and readily surpass the mass market quality, big bourbon has generally maintained quality at a very high level. Making a good bourbon requires considerable capital investment in a distillery and aging facility. That, plus the time involved in proper aging makes it very difficult for these small folks to compete with established bourbon producers. When you can get a good, solid bourbon like Evan Williams Black Label for 15 bucks, a young, mediocre "craft" bourbon for $30 or $40 is a pretty hard sell.

paintflinger said:

You captured my thoughts perfectly.

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I also fully agree on this front.

An outstanding tome, thank you one and all. I drink Whisk(e)y and do not really have a preference as long as it is a quality product (subjective). The cereal grains comprising the Mash Bill along with aging also influence the price and don't forget the advertising and transportation costs. One wonders what the distillers buy half so precious as what the are selling; thanx Omar K. Are the "good old whiskies" those of today and tomorrow?

Spang said:

+1 And here's the rest of the story: most of the craft distillery bourbons aren't made by the craft distillery at all; the age requirements for bourbon are such that the majority of this stuff is sourced whiskey. Most of it is made by Midwest Grain Products (MGP), a massive distilling operation in Indiana. It is then bottled and marked up--way up-- by the craft sellers, usually with a catchy backstory about " Uncle so-and-so's original recipe ...". While there is absolutely nothing wrong with MGP juice, it isn't worth anywhere near the price asked by the boutique whiskey merchants. Phrases on the bottle like "bottled by" or "produced by" have no legal meaning in terms of identifying the actual maker of the whiskey. The only meaningful identifier is "distilled by" which, if present, means that the designated entity actually made the whiskey. You won't find that phrase on most craft label bourbons.

Having said that, there are a few craft bourbons out there that are actually made by the folks putting the label on the bottle, but my experience with them has so far been uninspiring. Local boutique distilling is a great concept, but most of these producers, at least of bourbon, aren't quite there yet. Unlike with beer, where the big industrial brews had become pretty terrible and good craft beer could quickly and readily surpass the mass market quality, big bourbon has generally maintained quality at a very high level. Making a good bourbon requires considerable capital investment in a distillery and aging facility. That, plus the time involved in proper aging makes it very difficult for these small folks to compete with established bourbon producers. When you can get a good, solid bourbon like Evan Williams Black Label for 15 bucks, a young, mediocre "craft" bourbon for $30 or $40 is a pretty hard sell.

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Thanks for the back story! This explains how so many of these products have come into the market.

Spang said:

+1 And here's the rest of the story: most of the craft distillery bourbons aren't made by the craft distillery at all; the age requirements for bourbon are such that the majority of this stuff is sourced whiskey. Most of it is made by Midwest Grain Products (MGP), a massive distilling operation in Indiana. It is then bottled and marked up--way up-- by the craft sellers, usually with a catchy backstory about " Uncle so-and-so's original recipe ...". While there is absolutely nothing wrong with MGP juice, it isn't worth anywhere near the price asked by the boutique whiskey merchants. Phrases on the bottle like "bottled by" or "produced by" have no legal meaning in terms of identifying the actual maker of the whiskey. The only meaningful identifier is "distilled by" which, if present, means that the designated entity actually made the whiskey. You won't find that phrase on most craft label bourbons.

Having said that, there are a few craft bourbons out there that are actually made by the folks putting the label on the bottle, but my experience with them has so far been uninspiring. Local boutique distilling is a great concept, but most of these producers, at least of bourbon, aren't quite there yet. Unlike with beer, where the big industrial brews had become pretty terrible and good craft beer could quickly and readily surpass the mass market quality, big bourbon has generally maintained quality at a very high level. Making a good bourbon requires considerable capital investment in a distillery and aging facility. That, plus the time involved in proper aging makes it very difficult for these small folks to compete with established bourbon producers. When you can get a good, solid bourbon like Evan Williams Black Label for 15 bucks, a young, mediocre "craft" bourbon for $30 or $40 is a pretty hard sell.

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Next you'll be telling us that Mila Kunis is not a Tennessee Sour Mash Whiskey distiller.

Haggises said:

Next you'll be telling us that Mila Kunis is not a Tennessee Sour Mash Whiskey distiller.

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Now don't go ruining any fantasies. Who would brew better whiskey than her? I mean she's pretty so she must be good at it. [emoji13] Really though I love the commercials and I am a fan of hers but I'm thinking she might be doing it for the money.

I made some statements a while back about the Old Grandad 114 and I want to follow up on them. When I bought it I was just coming down with a bout of pneumonia and I thought it was pretty smooth albeit a little lacking in flavor. Now that I am over the crud I must say the stuff has a good flavor and it is smooth for 114 proof. But it is not for the faint of heart. At least not straight anyway. I rarely add a thing to bourbon. Not even an ice cube. If I want it cold I will put it in the freezer.

I dont care how cheap bourbon is, its never a better value than Jamison or Wild Turkey.

Larry C in Texas said:

When I started drinking more bourbon than scotch 5 or so years ago, it was because bourbon was a better value drink to me. Higher proof and same age for less coin. I like whisk(e)ys of all kinds, from bourbon to scotch to Irish to Canadian, and I like to get value for my money. But, in the last few years, with the boom, I'm seeing some prices of bourbon going up. So, I put the question to you fine gentlemen - is bourbon still a better value than scotch in the whisk(e)y department?

Thanks in advance for your input.

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I tend to think so. One of the most heavily sought after top bourbons sell for between $85 and $250--- Pappy Van Winkle
Lagavulin 16 goes for around $90 and despite its cult following, it's par for the course for something descent (between $40-$90). Go less than that and much quality is sacrificed.

On the other hand, with bourbon, I can spend maybe $40 and have an exquisite bourbon. $50 to $60 I can have something to savor.

I guess my point is dollar-wise, the quality thresholds are different at different dollar values. Beyond the $40-$60 point, how much MORE quality are you REALLY getting in a bourbon? One or two may surprise, but the rest won't stack. In terms of scotch, unless you're willing to spend between $35 to $40 to start, your quality is pretty much too grade swill, lol.

Granted, a single malt is a pedigree poodle compared to most bourbons. But they're also two different beasts to tame. They have different characteristics in their personalities, they're exposed to different elements, their water comes from different sources, on and on, so I would venture to guess the reason we pay more for a DESCENT single malt scotch is because it takes THAT kind of time before it's halfway descent. How much is a 10yr scotch? Not much right? Now how much is a 10 year bourbon? I bet a little more than the 10 yr old scotch.

The value in the end is speculative and subjective. Bourbon doesn't need the time Scotch does. It's why it sells for less as a whole. Scotch needs time. There is a perceived value in time spent in a barrel. Bourbon is what, a couple years and out? If a single malt scotch could be that good in such a short period of time, it would cost as much as bourbon.

where is the value? What's your budget? Lol---- Personally, I think the reason scotch prices are the way they are is because they know they'd never sell if they priced them as high as they'd like to. Scotch requires much more time in the barrel and cradle than bourbon does.
So where is the value? The flavor that only time, barrels, and the elements can create. I own some bourbons that can sip and have legs like a good scotch...& be just as long on the finish.

On a budget, you can have both scotch and bourbon.

For the same amount of money, you can have Buffalo Trace bourbon or a bottle of Aberlour blended scotch. I think it's a blend of speyside and lowland? I could be wrong but it's blended. It's still an outstanding whisky.

Anyhow, I've rambled too much but those are my thoughts on the question. Cheers!

Some scotches are a far better value than others. Ditto can be said for bourbon, too, no doubt.

Probably, the best approach is to drink what you like, and keep looking for a "good deal" there. And while you are at it, experiment with other sorts of drinks too ... keep exploring ... keep experimenting ... keep searching ... keep enjoying where it seems best to you!