Looking at finishing stones

I go from 1K Chosera to Jnat with no issues. The Naniwa Chosera or Professional leaves very shallow and very consistent scratches which are easily managed with a good Jnat. I was going Botan, Mejiro, Koma, Wasaka Tomo. I am getting better results skipping Botan and Mejiro and jumping straight to Koma. You can achieve great results just using diamond plate slurry on the Jnat without Nagura. I would talk PM Gamma and Alex(thejapanstone.com) to see if they have something in your price range. I found Jnats easier to learn than Coticules but YRMV.

The hardest part for me when beginning to use Jnats was learning slurry honing, since I had never really messed with it before. After a few conversations with a couple of the people mentioned above and some experimentation I found one main thing that had been hurting my edges - using too little pressure! Being used to using stones with only straight water or oil, I always tried to finish with hardly any pressure but contact with the stone, and that doesn't work well with slurry, at least it sure didn't for me. I find I get much better edges using "weight of the blade" pressure or a little smidge more than that.

eKretz said:

The hardest part for me when beginning to use Jnats was learning slurry honing, since I had never really messed with it before. After a few conversations with a couple of the people mentioned above and some experimentation I found one main thing that had been hurting my edges - using too little pressure! Being used to using stones with only straight water or oil, I always tried to finish with hardly any pressure but contact with the stone, and that doesn't work well with slurry, at least it sure didn't for me. I find I get much better edges using "weight of the blade" pressure or a little smidge more than that.

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Wow, too little pressure?!?! How did you figure that out and what effects did it have.

Avenolpey said:

I go from 1K Chosera to Jnat with no issues. The Naniwa Chosera or Professional leaves very shallow and very consistent scratches which are easily managed with a good Jnat. I was going Botan, Mejiro, Koma, Wasaka Tomo. I am getting better results skipping Botan and Mejiro and jumping straight to Koma. You can achieve great results just using diamond plate slurry on the Jnat without Nagura. I would talk PM Gamma and Alex(thejapanstone.com) to see if they have something in your price range. I found Jnats easier to learn than Coticules but YRMV.

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Thanks! straight to the Koma from the 1k? that's interesting, I'll have to try that out. I've been in contact with Gamma, and I'll have to talk to Alex too. Thanks for the help.

eKretz said:

The hardest part for me when beginning to use Jnats was learning slurry honing, since I had never really messed with it before. After a few conversations with a couple of the people mentioned above and some experimentation I found one main thing that had been hurting my edges - using too little pressure! Being used to using stones with only straight water or oil, I always tried to finish with hardly any pressure but contact with the stone, and that doesn't work well with slurry, at least it sure didn't for me. I find I get much better edges using "weight of the blade" pressure or a little smidge more than that.

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I can see that, it makes sense to me. what kind of nagura slurry progression did you find works best for you? (i.e. are you going through all the Botan, [FONT=open_sansregular]Tenjyou, [/FONT]Mejiro, Koma, Tomo stages, or are you jumping to any specific one, or something else?)

all this info is great, I appreciate everyone's input!

y'know most people would think we're strange getting excited about purchasing rocks hahah.

I determined it by trial and error. Every time I tried to float an edge with zero pressure I got a tuggy edge. I'm thinking it was most likely slurry dulling due to higher amount of slurry being able to get under the blade, but not sure. This was edge after edge until I started using just a bit more pressure. If I do multiple slurries I usually only use diamond plate slurry for first slurry, koma for second, tomo for third. Often I just go 2k synth to diamond to tomo.

Aloicious said:

Thanks! straight to the Koma from the 1k? that's interesting, I'll have to try that out. I've been in contact with Gamma, and I'll have to talk to Alex too. Thanks for the help.



I can see that, it makes sense to me. what kind of nagura slurry progression did you find works best for you? (i.e. are you going through all the Botan, [FONT=open_sansregular]Tenjyou, [/FONT]Mejiro, Koma, Tomo stages, or are you jumping to any specific one, or something else?)

all this info is great, I appreciate everyone's input!

y'know most people would think we're strange getting excited about purchasing rocks hahah.

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One important point is that not all Nagura are created equal. My Botan and Mejiro are not Asano Nagura and have read here that even Asano vary. My Koma was hand selected by one of the best so I know it is good. My Koma is very fast. My Botan and Mejiro seem to take the edge backwards and it never comes back as well. The bevel might not look as good as with Botan Mejiro, but the edge is keener when I go straight to Koma. If my Botan and Mejiro were as good as my Koma I'm sure it would be different.

All natural stones vary, nagura, Honzan, cotis, thuris, etc...
Branding doesn't change that - but putting QC behind branding might/will/can/could help to limit broad sweeping variances.

Asano stamps, at one time, were indicators of a certain kind of quality check. More about being authentic than anything else - but calling out layers was important also.
Lots of quarries in Japan churned out white rock that could be used as a 'nagura'. It was the Mikawa location that was said to yield the 'best' and most 'consistent' and free of toxic inclusions.
With all of the dubious stamping and false claims being made by resellers - things are not always what they seem to be.

I have a few non-Asano Nagura, they're great. I've had some non-stamped Nagura that were useless.

Gamma said:

I can't imagine needing, or even wanting, to go from a Jnat finisher to an Apache.

Also - I'd opt for 1k to 3k instead of 5k.

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Coming off what I think is a JNAT using the tomo the edge does not quite feel right so I gave it some very very light strokes on the Apache and it seemed to help but maybe it's not a JNAT and I surly am not used to using it.

I've encountered hundreds of non-Asano nagura and have only found one that I really liked, a Mikawa Shiro Spotted Botan. All the others had characteristics which were hybrid of different layers or broke down inconsistently. I bet there are nice pieces available if you have the time and patience to sort things out. Asano stamps guarantee nothing anymore, I've dumped more than a few in the waters off of St. George. I have acquired and held on to several vintage pieces that I'm working my way through now. Some of the newly available stuff is fine but again you have to find some time and patience to find useable pieces.

While I get the point, I would not go so far as to say Asano stamps don't mean anything today.
It's sorta like the Maruichi stamps - someone is pounding those stones out their back door by the boatload. IMO - in and of itself, the presence of that stamp doesn't mean much, especially when you see that the ink is almost still wet.

At the same time, there are high quality stones bearing Maruka, Maruichi and Asano stamps out there; generally speaking - a stone bearing an authentic stamp could reasonably be expected to perform well.

Somewhere in the blending of time passing, myriad changes in personnel, diminished stone availability, etc - we find out that 'not all that glitters' is gold all the time. So be it.
Even so - a real Mikawa nagura with real Asano stamps is always going to be what it's claiming to be. How well it works for anyone is another thing entirely. Let's remember that the quarry closed long ago - most of what is sold today as Mikawa Nagura is either an older piece out of a collection, or a chunk of stone stored in an outdoor locker or scrap found lying on the ground.

There's another component to the stamping thing that is often missed by most.
All of those stamps were meant to indicate something - for lack of a better term, let's call that 'thing' - quality control.
The stamps were not meant to be viewed as a formula or ingredients list. Basically, the stamps would indicate 'something - maybe origin, maybe a certain general designation (Kamisori, Awase, etc) but they simply do not mean, and never were meant, to indicate anything more than that. In Japan, no one buys a stone based on the stamp. The stamps 'might' be somewhat important, but at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is what the stone is really all about. The only discussions I ever have with users and collectors revolve around hardness, feel, speed. Several polishers I communicate with have no idea what a 'Maruka' is and most of their Nagura do not bear stamps of any kind. Hell - these guys discuss the stone's fragrance like someone might want refer to the top/base notes of cologne.

Way I see it, relying on the presence of a stamp to be the sole indicator of anything is just short of ludicrous. I won't get into who's selling what or why or any of that. Suffice to say this - anyone that doesn't handle a lot of any one type of stone on a super regular basis - is, most likely, not going to be able to seperate fact from fiction when it comes to that one type of stone. The regurgitated 'information' gleaned from dubious unqualified 'sources' adds the the confusion and propogation of misinformation.

And by 'handling' I don't mean simply purchasing stone wholesale by the gram/kilo/etc and then re-selling it.
Note - vacation pix of me sitting with a Torcedor at the Partegas factory in Havana do not make me a cigar expert.
I'm talking about acutally using the stones, living with them, understanding them from the inside - at a deeper level, living with them and and learning to understand them further with each passing day.

Over the last 18 months, I've experienced (first hand) a good number of AS nagura that were either rushed through their QC process, stamped because it was 'close enough and nothing else was available, or someone has their own stamps and they're putting them on what would otherwise be sold as Chu.

I've discussed my findings with a few friend in Japan, and they agree with what I'm thinking. Some of them also seem to have first hand knowlege of 'less than acceptable' practices going on. Several rather derogatory comments have been made, but Cultural standards stand in the way of actual finger-pointing. I've decided to stay out of the Sherlock Holmes game; while some people seem to thrive on it - I have zero need for gossip and excessive drama in my life.

All I want to know is who's got the real good stuff, what works best with what - and when it works best.

Just to update this thread, I did end up getting a Jnat (thanks everyone for the help), and a set of naguras, they just arrived today so no time to get pics or test 'em out yet, but soon.

I think instead messed upwith the Jnats , naguras and ect , try to get a cheaper thuringian hone . Its not nessesary to be a labeled Escher . Thuri is the king of all finishers , its waaay better than other stones .
Thuris are born to make amazing edge on your razor .
A small size will work also .

So what type of jnat and naguras did you end up choosing? If it is a keeper, be sure to prep the surface well in order to get the most out of your new jnat

I got this stone: http://www.tomonagura.com/jnats/awase-to/ozuku-asagi.html

and a matching full set of naguras from the same site. (Botan, Tenjou, Mejiro, Koma, Tomo)

looks like it'll be fun on the bun...