How did they sharpen razors in the old days?

DanSmith · Dec 25, 2014

My grandfathers never heard of Japanese water stones. I know they had strops because I have one of theirs.

What stones did they use 80 years ago and earlier?

I'm not trying to be negative so much as questioning why I need so much 'shtuff' to get into using a straight razor.

I see these woodworkers on my favorite forum talk about how many grades of stones they use to sharpen their chisels and plane blades. I questioned why they didn't just use a medium India stone and a hard translucent Arkansas stone and all of these old-timer guys came out of the woodwork saying they did just that. I suppose they felt intimidated telling the younger guys they only use two sharpening stones.

Is there a simpler way to sharpen a straight razor than to use a 4000 grit water stone, an 8000 grit water stone, a coticule, a finer coticule, a thuringian, a strop and sprays or pastes?

For gosh sakes, I can shave the hair on my arms with my wood chisels and pocket knives.

McVeyMac · Dec 25, 2014

My father and grandfather were finish carpenters. Two stones for chisels and plane blades, and a file for saws. They got along just fine. I am sure that my grandfather shaved with a straight at one point, but by the time I can remember he had moved on to DE.

There is one thing that a carpenter does not have to worry about, the wood does not care if the edge is rough. Your face will. You can probably get along just fine with a Norton 4/8K combo, and a 12K Ninawa SS. That should maintain your razor for a long time. If you aquire a razor that needs a bevel re-set, perhaps a 1K in the future. A 4K will also do it, but it will take you a lot longer.

Steve56 · Dec 25, 2014

They very likely used a coticule, an Arkansas, or a slate of some kind depending on where they were. I'm 58 and my father's family used a coticule to hone their razors in the early part of the 20th century. In Europe, Thuringians were likely popular though a couple of large wars would have cut off supply from Germany to many places.

They could of course, have had a barber sharpen their razors, but I believe it was no too unusual to have at least one razor hone in the house. My family was in rural East Tennessee, and in the 1020s-40s it was not exactly the center of modern thought, but hones for all the farm implements and tools were required so a razor hone was familiar and useful for them.

Cheers, Steve

Gamma · Dec 25, 2014

If your grandfather was Japanese, he would have heard of Japanese waterstones.
As for using more or fewer stones - well, it doesnt really matter who uses what as long as they get where they want to go.
Some old timers used to say 8k edges were all you need to shave with, while others dont agree.
Way I see it, what works for someone is what works - if 2 stones work for someone, cool. If someone Wants to add more stones to that equation, equally cool.

I had a barber's kit from the late 1800s, and there was a carborundum-like stone with what was probably pastes and a few strops in it.
Coticules were imported in larger numbers than anything else, but whether or not they were more popular overall - factoring in synths and Arks, etc, I dont know.
I think Pastes were extremely popular for touchups, as were barber bones - and I think most non-pro-barber guys sent their razors out for full fledged honing.

DanSmith · Dec 25, 2014

I know that the Japanese water stone grades don't match up to the US oil stone grades. I know the 8000 grit (JIS) water stone is approximately equal in grade to a 2000 grit (ANSI) oil stone. The problem arises that you can't get a man-made oil stone of anywhere near the fine grit count of the finest man-made Japanese water stone so one is almost forced to use at least some water stones. But how high does one need to go for polishing and finishing to get a good shave? Does one need to use a coticule and a Thuringian to get a comfortable shave?

What is a good set of stones for sharpening? I've seen 1k, 4k, 8k, and 12k water stones followed by a coticule and a Thuringian recommended. Then one goes to the strop.

If this is the way to do it then so be it. I'm new at this stuff and want to do it right without wasting money/time and without cutting corners.

Tell me how to do it right please.

SliceOfLife · Dec 25, 2014

I like DMT 1.2 (which is cheapest when you buy it as a two sided with the 600), 8000, and then a finisher. Simple, few steps, blazingly fast.

feltspanky · Dec 25, 2014

Welcome DanSmith: Help us help you. Do you already have a straight razor? Do you already have sharpening stones. If you do have stones what are the grits. Tell us your budget. How much money do you want to spend on sharpening stones. This will help the B&B members give you advice an answers to your questions.

Brianskeet · Dec 25, 2014

The coticule hone is a very popular choice for those that desire a one hone solution to their straight razor needs and has been in use for hundreds of years. Not the ideal bevel setter, but it will accomplish the task and setting bevels is not a common occurrence for most of us. A lone coticule can go from bevel set to finished edge which is really rather extraordinary. I know of no other single stone with so much range in its ability. For this range you do have the burden of needing to learn how to handle a coticule, but this is not that difficult and many of us enjoy the learning process. Yes, obviously you COULD set a bevel on any finisher, but you could celebrate birthdays trying to do it on most.

Alum of Potash · Dec 25, 2014

Actually, I spent most of Tuesday evening introducing scratches with a fine India, then smoothing these out with translucent Arkansas. Did the job in the end, but it took a very long time, and I ended up using a black Arkansas just to take things a little bit further.

Are you interested in nostalgia for nostalgia's sake, or obtaining a decent edge from a minimal set-up? 1k/6k Japanese synth combo followed by Solingen red and black pastes works great IMO.

DanSmith · Dec 25, 2014

feltspanky,

I have an old unusable straight razor that was my grandfather's. I have 20+ sharpening stones that I use for sharpening knives, wood chisels, and plane blades. As far as grits, I have coarse, medium, and fine carborundum stones, coarse, medium, and fine India stones, Washita stones, soft and hard Arkansas stones, an Eze-Lap 61SF (super fine) diamond plate and various other stones in a variety of sizes. Except for some knowledge and experience with general sharpening I'm starting from scratch with straight razors.

Of the stones I have I could probably sharpen up a razor sharp enough to hack away at my fairly heavy beard although I might do a better job of it than I realize. (One natural stone in particular is a mystery and extremely, extremely smooth relative to my others. It came in a cigar box full of stones from an antique mall.)

Anyway, the straight razor sharpening videos and write ups I've seen have come across as very straight forward. If I had the equipment I'm certain I could duplicate the results. (I can almost hear you guys laughing but I'm serious. I've been sharpening edge tools by hand for about 50 years.)

My budget isn't really a problem but I refuse to go overboard.

Please tell me what it will take to get started with sharpening a factory new razor even though I may begin with a truly shave ready razor.

Thanks,
Dan

kn4wd · Dec 25, 2014

if you want natural stones for finishers look at the bbw and coti. you would still need a bevel setter. I use a 1k,4k 8k and then apache strata and at times I use the apache red before the strata. the bbw and coti are probally cheapest choice they can be had for a bit cheaper than the syns, maybe not as big but if you are learning if you learn the coti then you have it.

Alum of Potash · Dec 25, 2014

Given what's already in your collection, soft Ark to old-school hard Ark will get you there, followed by judicious stropping.

Brianskeet · Dec 25, 2014

You probably already have it. You have bevel and mid range covered. Show us a picture of the stone you describe as extremely smooth. It may well be an excellent finishing stone. The stones may need lapped flat, but that is no big deal. A flat surface and a few sheets of wet dry sand paper from lowes will take care of that.

feltspanky · Dec 25, 2014

Hi DanSmith: It sounds like you're well prepared. A few pictures of the stones your considering for sharpening the razor would help. There are many B&B members who have PhD's in natural stone geology. Hopefully they will join the discussion and provide the answers your seeking.

feltspanky · Dec 25, 2014

One more option Dan: Clean up your razor (if necessary) with metal polish. For a small nominal fee B&B member Bayamontate can put a fantastic shaving edge on your razor. He can also tell you if the blade and spine are true and ready to go. Once you get the razor back, you can maintain the edge with just a strop an occasional refresh on your ultra fine hone. Good Luck

dionesius3 · Dec 25, 2014

I think people in the old days had two things most of us today don't have. One is patience they didn't mind taking their time to do something right. Secondly they had knowledge of how to use the tools they had and they maintained those tools meticulously. So in answer to your question, I think they likely used the best stones they could find, and they took great care of razors once they were sharp.

and lastly I believe that they could and did tolerate a shave with a less than optimal sharpness and smoothness. In other words they were not sissy-men who must have the ultimately sharp razor and the perfect shave every time.

Then factor in the number of Handy-men, Black smiths, tool makers, and other specialist who would not only have the right stones but also the vast experience of doing the job hundreds of times.

my grandfather told of the local traveling trade man who sold, traded, fixed, and sharpened anything and every thing. He fixed broken cast iron cookware, sold and traded replacement items, sharpened anything, sold a variety of items, and brought news, gossip, and stories of neighbors, distant relatives, and the like.

i don't believe sharpening a razor was a big deal to the men in the old days.

Crackers · Dec 25, 2014

Which ever way you go, make sure that your stones are lapped before you touch a razor to them, I know it may seem obvious however nobody has said it yet. Put a grid pattern with a pencil on the hone and make sure the pattern has dissapeared after lapping before you start. Besides that, 1k, bevel setter, 4k slurry - dilute and shave off 8k finish, used CROX & IROX to finish before strop but have shaved off 1, 4 & 8K edges to see what my bevel and technique is like.

gary haywood · Dec 25, 2014

The barbers shop I own, has been established since 1934. The shop was run by father and son and now me. When I first started working there, their was a very old canvas leather strop hanging on its hook. Also wrapped in a wrap was a very con caved Belgium coticule .

in the vintage unit on the wall I notised a red wax block. Jim who is the son and now 84 told me they used the coticule until it created a sludge, which we no as slurry. He told me they would then strop on the red rouge then leather..I asked him how he removed chips.. He said his dad had a courser stone. So From what Jim says 80 years ago they used courser stone and a coticule followed up with red rouge?

the rouge would most likely be red dovo paste or equivalent to that.. I also asked how he would check for chips? He replied by saying he would run the razor across his nail, this way you could feel any chips in the edge, for sharpness test he would only use thumb pad test.

So No microscopes or hht testing back then.by the looks of the coticule they did,not lap them flat. The one I spotted in his shop was that co caved it was nearly down to the black slate.. The stone had some serious use.

Effy · Dec 26, 2014

I go to 8k and then linen and leather. I get pretty good results with that, to be honest.

Could I get better results if I had more hones to go up through? Very likely.

Is it totally required? Not at all.

I say go to what you feel is good for now. If you feel down the line that something more is needed, you can still buy it. No need to get every stone under the sun only to find that you didn't really need to.

Again, I'm assuming this is for personal use where you only need to worry about your face not the face of anyone else

mikael · Dec 26, 2014

DanSmith said:
feltspanky,

I have an old unusable straight razor that was my grandfather's. I have 20+ sharpening stones that I use for sharpening knives, wood chisels, and plane blades. As far as grits, I have coarse, medium, and fine carborundum stones, coarse, medium, and fine India stones, Washita stones, soft and hard Arkansas stones, an Eze-Lap 61SF (super fine) diamond plate and various other stones in a variety of sizes. Except for some knowledge and experience with general sharpening I'm starting from scratch with straight razors.

Of the stones I have I could probably sharpen up a razor sharp enough to hack away at my fairly heavy beard although I might do a better job of it than I realize. (One natural stone in particular is a mystery and extremely, extremely smooth relative to my others. It came in a cigar box full of stones from an antique mall.)

Anyway, the straight razor sharpening videos and write ups I've seen have come across as very straight forward. If I had the equipment I'm certain I could duplicate the results. (I can almost hear you guys laughing but I'm serious. I've been sharpening edge tools by hand for about 50 years.)

My budget isn't really a problem but I refuse to go overboard.

Please tell me what it will take to get started with sharpening a factory new razor even though I may begin with a truly shave ready razor.

Thanks,
Dan

I would love to go through your stone collection 20+ vintage stones. I bet there's some nice ones in there. If your arkansas stones are flat do not lap them. They'll be broken in and ready for razors. And they are a pain to lap and break in.

Get a test piece of some kind. Sharpen it on the diamond and then go to your soft arkansas stones and check if they'll remove the scratches introduced by the diamond in reasonable time. If they do then you have a bevel setter and a mid range stone. If it don't then try the same thing with the fine India and soft arkansas. After that go to your hard arkansas and to your mystery natural. That might be all you need except for a strop.

Mikael

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How did they sharpen razors in the old days?

DanSmith

McVeyMac

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!

Gamma

DanSmith

SliceOfLife

feltspanky

Brianskeet

Alum of Potash

DanSmith

kn4wd

Alum of Potash

Brianskeet

feltspanky

feltspanky

dionesius3

Crackers

gary haywood

Effy

mikael

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