Espresso grinder advice.

Hey Fellas,
I need to solocitate some advice from those of you who have experience with a couple different grinders I'm looking at.
I'm just trying to get a little less suck (or a lot less) from my current espresso machine.
The grinders I'm primarily looking at are manuals, either one of the Hario models or the OS Lido 2. I realize that maybe none of you have had experience with the lido 2,but I'd love to hear what you've thought of the pharos or lido 1.
I also may have an opportunity to buy a Mazzer Super Jolly locally for around $300.
I only grind for espresso, and 3-4 double shots a day at the most. So a manual doesn't seem like it'd be any problem, while the SJ seems like overkill. But what I'm most interested, of course, is the quality of the espresso grind.
I'm currently leaning toward the lido 2. I just want something that hopefully won't do two things my current grinder does, make clumpy espresso grinds, and get the grinds all stuck up in the machine where it's a PITA to shake and slap out.
Any advice is greatly appreciated, and thanks in advance!

Eric

I've had a Hario Skerton for years. I find it gives a consistently good espresso grind, not so much for French press. Sometimes I wish it were possible to fine tune the adjustment, but overall I'm very happy with it.

Second the Hario Skerton. It's a great match for my Presso/ROK lever machine (which is finicky in terms of grind & consistency). It is a pain to change the settings and it's not stepless (reasonably big gaps between settings), so bear that in mind if you're someone who likes to try new beans regularly (different varieties/roasts will grind/behave differently). It's nice to get the feedback through your hands too when you grind! Adds another level to your coffee experience.

Sounds like a good price on the Super Jolly, it would be tempting to buy that.

Ignoring the Mazzer, if I were only grinding 4-5 double shots a day, I would strongly consider the Pharos. It produces nice fluffy grounds and there are lots of ideas floating around for making further modifications. You mentioned one issue, which is that (unmodified) it needs a couple of whacks on the side to get all the grinds out, though once you get used to giving an open handed whack, it does not feel like a problem. The whack may also help contribute to the lack of clumping, but it also means you need to use a larger container or mat to catch the grounds before pouring into your portafilter basket. The second issue is that dialing in fine adjustments can be tricky, but the capability is there.

If you are leaning towards the OE Lido 2, I think you will be happy with it. I plan to get one for its adjustability, but I cannot comment on how it compares to the Pharos.

Emcphers said:

I only grind for espresso, and 3-4 double shots a day at the most. So a manual doesn't seem like it'd be any problem, while the SJ seems like overkill.

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YMM certainly V but I pull 2-4 shots a day and my Super Jolly is not overkill IMO. It really depends on what you're expecting, what you're used to, etc. I wouldn't go for a manual but my expectations may be entirely different from yours. I couldn't stand waiting for my prior grinder to take 20+ seconds to grind for a double but I'm happy with the convenience and speed of my current setup. It takes ~6 seconds to grind for a double and I only have to hit the button on the darkroom timer to grind the appropriate amount of beans. I also don't consider a grinder that produces the quality of espresso that I want to be overkill and that's precisely what the SJ does for me. Upgrading to it was a significant improvement in the cup. That said, I can't speak to the manual grinders you're considering or what they would produce.

The grinder is extremely important and many tend to overlook it or leave it as afterthought. There's a reason why so many other grinders are compared to Super Jolly. Note that I'm not saying that it's the best grinder out there -- just that it's used a lot for comparisons because it is a standard in the espresso world.

$300 is a good price for a Super Jolly. That said, if grind retention is a concern the Super Jolly may not be a best fit -- at least not without sweeper mods. Clumping won't be an issue with the SJ. Depending on the specific condition of that grinder $300 may just be the starting cost (i.e. if it needs burrs and/or any other parts or any other work to get it running).

The SJ is a nice grinder - I've used them but could never find a good deal for one - the hunt did lead me to a suitable espresso grinder though - $300 is a price I would have paid during my hunt for the SJ.

Mazzer Grinder Video:

Thanks for all the input gentlemen, it's helped out quite a bit, and also given me other aspects of the prospective grinder to take into consideration. Right now I'm trolling eBay and Craigslist looking for a steal... The guy with the mazzers is unreachable; looks like I missed out.

techblade01 said:

Mazzer Grinder Video:

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Maintenance looks like a breeze!

EricBNC said:

The SJ is a nice grinder - I've used them but could never find a good deal for one - the hunt did lead me to a suitable espresso grinder though - $300 is a price I would have paid during my hunt for the SJ.

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takeshi said:

YMM certainly V but I pull 2-4 shots a day and my Super Jolly is not overkill IMO. It really depends on what you're expecting, what you're used to, etc. I wouldn't go for a manual but my expectations may be entirely different from yours. I couldn't stand waiting for my prior grinder to take 20+ seconds to grind for a double but I'm happy with the convenience and speed of my current setup. It takes ~6 seconds to grind for a double and I only have to hit the button on the darkroom timer to grind the appropriate amount of beans. I also don't consider a grinder that produces the quality of espresso that I want to be overkill and that's precisely what the SJ does for me. Upgrading to it was a significant improvement in the cup. That said, I can't speak to the manual grinders you're considering or what they would produce.

The grinder is extremely important and many tend to overlook it or leave it as afterthought. There's a reason why so many other grinders are compared to Super Jolly. Note that I'm not saying that it's the best grinder out there -- just that it's used a lot for comparisons because it is a standard in the espresso world.

$300 is a good price for a Super Jolly. That said, if grind retention is a concern the Super Jolly may not be a best fit -- at least not without sweeper mods. Clumping won't be an issue with the SJ. Depending on the specific condition of that grinder $300 may just be the starting cost (i.e. if it needs burrs and/or any other parts or any other work to get it running).

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Thanks for the insight. Overkill was probably not the correct word for what I meant to express. I'm glad it works well for you though.

StillShaving said:

Sounds like a good price on the Super Jolly, it would be tempting to buy that.

Ignoring the Mazzer, if I were only grinding 4-5 double shots a day, I would strongly consider the Pharos. It produces nice fluffy grounds and there are lots of ideas floating around for making further modifications. You mentioned one issue, which is that (unmodified) it needs a couple of whacks on the side to get all the grinds out, though once you get used to giving an open handed whack, it does not feel like a problem. The whack may also help contribute to the lack of clumping, but it also means you need to use a larger container or mat to catch the grounds before pouring into your portafilter basket. The second issue is that dialing in fine adjustments can be tricky, but the capability is there.

If you are leaning towards the OE Lido 2, I think you will be happy with it. I plan to get one for its adjustability, but I cannot comment on how it compares to the Pharos.

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Thanks for the reply. I've spotted one of the original pharos. Which one do you have experience with? Do you know what changes OE made in their progression (I believe there are 3 generations)?

rossalexander said:

I've had a Hario Skerton for years. I find it gives a consistently good espresso grind, not so much for French press. Sometimes I wish it were possible to fine tune the adjustment, but overall I'm very happy with it.

Click to expand...

Torrefaction said:

Second the Hario Skerton. It's a great match for my Presso/ROK lever machine (which is finicky in terms of grind & consistency). It is a pain to change the settings and it's not stepless (reasonably big gaps between settings), so bear that in mind if you're someone who likes to try new beans regularly (different varieties/roasts will grind/behave differently). It's nice to get the feedback through your hands too when you grind! Adds another level to your coffee experience.

Click to expand...

You two Gents have got me thinking 'stepless' is the way to go...


Thanks again everybody.

I use a turkish mill. I like the look and feel of it and I was tired of having my electric grinder burn down.
The calibration is very accurate and I can get exactly the grind I need.
A double shot takes about one minute to grind though.

Emcphers said:

Thanks for the reply. I've spotted one of the original pharos. Which one do you have experience with? Do you know what changes OE made in their progression (I believe there are 3 generations)?

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My Pharos is a 2nd generation version (though I like to think of it as revision 1.1, where the latest one would be 1.2). They all use the same burr and share the same overall design, where burr alignment and stability during grinding is the primary concern. So all revisions produce similar output. The changes were about improving everyday usability.

Don't quote me, but I think differences between the 3 generations were:

1st Generation:
A) Has a single lock-nut adjuster under the handle to control the grind size. A number of people had problems with the adjustment nut becoming loose over time or shifting during grinding. B) Does not have a internal grind catch funnel, just a half circle cut into the top of the catch basin. After grinding one needed to tilt the grinder greater than 90 degrees and tap to get things moving. There was even a demonstration of using a small reflex hammer as a way to coax the grounds out (not the best first impression)

2nd Generation:
A) Used a dual lock-nut adjuster design. Where the first lock nut served to set the stepless grind size, and the second one to lock it in place. B) Incorporated an internal funnel to catch the grind output. This made it much easier to remove the grind without making too much of a mess. Though it still takes a couple of shakes or thwacks on the side of the grinder with an open hand to help get the grinds moving. C) Included a thick rubber pad accessory to help hold the grinder against the counter surface. This allows full contact instead of just at its 3 feet, improving stability by making it easier to hold while grinding.

3rd Generation:
A) Used a single split shaft collar adjustment nut. The split gives a strong visual indicator of movement and position of the grind size. And I suspect there is less chance of the nut inadvertently moving during adjustment tweaks like it might with the dual jam nut design.

Good news is that the single split shaft collar nut of generation 3, and the rubber pad of generation 2 can be bought directly from OE and used with a generation 1 machine. I don't think the internal funnel is offered, but there are a few mods that people have done if you want to use them as ideas for improvement.

Wait and find a good priced Super Jolly.

I could not live without mine.

I've modified mine quite a bit but it is still a SJ at the core.

As it looked when it arrived. Was bought new by a church and used once a week for several years making espresso for meetings



It is now a time based doserless that is run from an Auber timer



Timer is on the far left. I put on a Mazzer mini portifilter holder so I can put the portifilter under the funnel, hit the timer and walk away. When I return I have a perfect dose of espresso ready to tamp

I am not sure what I could walk away and do in the time it takes for my grinders to spit out 18g for a double...

EricBNC said:

I am not sure what I could walk away and do in the time it takes for my grinders to spit out 18g for a double...

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I'll froth milk while it is grinding but I always pull heavy doubles which takes a little longer to grind the 28 grams I use for that.

turtle said:

I'll froth milk while it is grinding but I always pull heavy doubles which takes a little longer to grind the 28 grams I use for that.

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Im sorry, I thought you said 28 grams for a double. That's crazy talk.

I can't froth milk in 5 - 6 seconds

Dirk-Lerxst-Pratt said:

Im sorry, I thought you said 28 grams for a double. That's crazy talk.

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sorry bout that.... 22 grams is my typical heavy double

EricBNC said:

I can't froth milk in 5 - 6 seconds

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Sounds like you need a little more horse power in your boiler

turtle said:

Sounds like you need a little more horse power in your boiler

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whats a boiler?

I know it really stretches the budget but have you considered the HG One? It is beautiful, heavy and not a plastic piece to be found, including the handle. I just got mine in with the TiN coated burrs and I am blown away by the quality (no affiliate to the company). I imagine this will last into my lifetime and the next. It only stings a little and then it goes away when you open up the box.

How the He_ _ can you froth while grinding with that?


I'm not jealous...


I'm not jealous...


I'm not jealous...


I lie...