My new natural stone

Insanely good Y/G thuri. When you see people bidding insane amounts for Barbers Delights or Labeled Y/G eschers. This is the rock they're chasing. Velvet-smooth, lightning fast Thuringian. This is the edge people pay $1000+ to be able to produce.


Also, Old Rock Coti

I'm really eager to hear how your shaves go. For me this stone has literally given me amazingly awesome shaves. Admittedly I've never shaved off of a Y/G Escher - any Escher actually - but I can't imagine how it could be much better than the last several shaves I've gotten from this stone.

I'm really quite shocked at how amazingly smooth the finish on water gets from this stone in the scope pics - it looks like it's smoother/finer than any of the other compared stones. What do you think (visually) of the water and oil edges on my stone vs. the ones you posted for comparison? I'm still pinching myself at having found this stone lying on the ground, haha!

The bevel polish on water is up there. Reminds me a bit of how high grit abrasive stropping results look under the scope. On oil the refinement is more evident. It reminds me a bit of some very hard Jnats I've worked with. Given its nature, it's possible there's quite a bit more potential there as well if you spend some time learning the stones quirks and finding what prefinishes best compliment it; given the shallow cut it takes, it's bound to be quite sensitive to the prefinisher used.

I may take a 13k finish to the stone on water just to see what the polish and edge look like with that matchup.

edit: interesting results. It appears the stone requires a relatively thick edge to get the level of reflection seen in the 8k to water images. Progressing to it from a 13k actually reduces the polish of the bevel considerably, even on water. I took the same razor back to 8k, then to this stone, and again, a near mirror polished bevel. It may have to do with the particular topography left and how it reflects light, but it is effected in such a way that once the abrasive diameter > x * edge radius (x unknown), the extreme level of polish becomes impossible.

I'm curious about the shaves too. I've got the two razors set up on my desk. One's oil, the other water. I'll probably try the water first as it's the one I'm the least sure of. The oil finished one I expect will perform in line with what I've been seeing, so it'll get tested after.

Something you may consider trying in the future is to spritz one of these stones with a very fine abrasive, sub-micron diamond or something similar, and see the results. Given how shallow the stone cuts without pressure, it should function very nearly as a granite/glass surface for abrasives, which could then be washed off if you wanted to finish with the stone's own polish.

Yeah, I've thought of trying that also. I do have some .05 micron PCD but that may be too fine. I'm just glad it has the ability to put on an outstanding final finish by itself, otherwise it might as well be a piece of glass. Very unique and interesting stone for sure. By the way, what did you end up doing as far as surfacing the stone for your finishing? I wonder if your change with following the 13k may have had a bit to do with switching to oil then back to water.

Out of curiosity, how would you say this stone compares with the Apache stone now?

So here's my turn. I took the stone to 3 blades, all GDs.

1. Cleared the edge with CBN on nano then took it to the stone with water and Smiths just to see what the stone alone could do.


2. Next, I used the stone as I would think it would most often be used, in progression. So I took it to 8K Shapton, then to the stone (I called it a quarry stone) with a Nagura slurry and I worked the slurry to a misty end.

3. and finally I used my coti, a LaVerte, and finished on this stone with Smiths, similar to a thread I did where I used my LV and finished on my translucent Ark with phemnomenal results:


All the pics are nice but it's the shave that matters. The first one was not shave worthy. Just water and Smiths was not this stones thing. The second edge where I used the nagura to a misty slurry was really nice. I would think that most people would use a stone like this in a similar progression. The last edge I used the stone as a finisher similar to a thread I posted where I used a translucent Ark as a finisher. This stone was not as good with water and Smiths. In fact, I took another razor and put just the coti edge on it and compared directly to the the edge that was finished on this stone... it was a step backward.

I don't have the quality of scope as Alx or some others but I've seen enough of these pics that I can tell what will be good and what won't.

So far, I can conclude that this stone does not like plain water even with Smiths solution. The best edge of the bunch was with the nagura slurry (mejiro).

I see that some of you have used oil on this stone. I have been reluctant to do so only because of the mess and clean up but I may give it a try as I really believe this stone will liven up with oil.

I do think this is a viable stone for razor sharpening. I will post some more with oil.

BTW, what would you guys recommend for oil?

Hmm, I have to ask - did you use a layer of tape for these edges a la unicot? How did you surface the stone after the slurry finish to try the following edges? If the stone isn't made quite smooth I get much worse results, and since it cuts VERY finely on water it is going to be tough to get the edge thinned without the tape. You'll need more pressure and probably a LOT more laps if you want to skip the tape step. It's worth mentioning that the stone will cut finer the more you use it until it levels out - maybe try the ark trick with a chisel or something to smooth the surface a bit more also?.I have had outstanding shaves on straight water for several shaves in a row now (all on dulled and reset bevels, then finished on the stone with one layer of tape and water) so I know it can provide a nice shave. Ian found that going to too smooth of a prefinish somehow hurt the final finish also - maybe try going with an 8k synth and then to the stone on water with a layer of tape. This has given me outstanding edges.

I use a light oil called Tap Magic when I use oil but any oil will work. I prefer Tap Magic just because it smells nice, but I have also used plain refined mineral oil with equal result.

Eric

Lots of good progress happening with your glacial delight. Your stone is a finisher for sure, the size of the sample you sent me weighed over 3 pounds, the surface area was very generous and my feeling would be that a thinner slab would be easier and be like a reminder that this is a finisher.

The fact that so much of the work happens at the front end of the honing session in someway could be its main virtue. How about a session with after bevel setting; 20 strokes on a 8k of some brand, 20x on the glacial, 10x back on the 8k, 10x on the glacial, 5x-8k, 5x glacial and so forth down to just one.

Just suggesting that everyone is proving the glacial is great but that a bit more heavy lifting in the mid-grit ranges during the routine might allow the glacial more time per session to strut.

from Kanazawa, Japan

Alx

drmatt357 said:

All the pics are nice but it's the shave that matters. The first one was not shave worthy. Just water and Smiths was not this stones thing. The second edge where I used the nagura to a misty slurry was really nice. I would think that most people would use a stone like this in a similar progression. The last edge I used the stone as a finisher similar to a thread I posted where I used a translucent Ark as a finisher. This stone was not as good with water and Smiths. In fact, I took another razor and put just the coti edge on it and compared directly to the the edge that was finished on this stone... it was a step backward.

I don't have the quality of scope as Alx or some others but I've seen enough of these pics that I can tell what will be good and what won't.

So far, I can conclude that this stone does not like plain water even with Smiths solution. The best edge of the bunch was with the nagura slurry (tenjiro).

I see that some of you have used oil on this stone. I have been reluctant to do so only because of the mess and clean up but I may give it a try as I really believe this stone will liven up with oil.

I do think this is a viable stone for razor sharpening. I will post some more with oil.

BTW, what would you guys recommend for oil?

Click to expand...

I used mineral oil and it cleaned up with a wipe. I used my usual oil (Kero + mineral) and the stone soaked up quite a bit and was a bit of work to clean, so if you want to go back and forth, I'd go for a thicker oil like pure mineral oil, and wipe the stone right after you finish. Interestingly, the stone seemed to cut much faster when penetrated with the (thinner, kero+min) oil than even when it was using the same oil as an interface... possibly worth testing.

Your results seem to be similar to what I was seeing my first times on water, the stone is very, very passive (I think that's the word to use here for non-aggressive), and without something such as pressure, tape, additional abrasives, etc, it hesitates to sharpen an edge significantly. The key seems to be finding the technique change that works best for you. Ekretz is using tape and oil. I'd probably wind up just going to a higher finish (8k JIS would be fine, most of my work was off 8k Mesh) before switching to the stone, then using a bit more pressure, as I don't use tape typically; but I'd say tape + oil was by far the easiest solution found so far.

Eric, I didn't prep the stone at all as I recall you mentioned that you had already done it so I didn't want to disturb it. I will try some more mid level work as Alx mentions.

I did not use tape to finish. I think for my Wednesday shave I'll go oil with and one without tape and see what happens.

Gotcha Matt, but if you raised a slurry and used it to hone, that alters not only the blade surface but also the stone surface. So anything after that would probably be sub-optimal. Here's my stone prep procedure: I use a fine grit synth stone to slurry lap the stone - I raise a slurry on the synth with a diamond plate and slurry lap the stone, then I rinse both stones off and dry them and give them a quick dry rub together also. This gets me very nice edges. The tape seems to be very key for this stone, but Alex's idea is also a very good one.

Alex, very good suggestion. I think this stone needs some working around like that to be used without tape for sure. I think trying some smaller stones might be a good idea as well.

On another note, today I sampled a few of the different stones that I found to see if there were any variances in hardness etc. and I think I found a grail stone! It cuts just as fine as the first, and appears to be the exact same material but has a slightly different color (slightly lighter and no black swirls) and thus I'm guessing slightly different mineral/impurity content. Initial testing shows this to be my favorite finisher of any I've ever used. It's a smidge softer than the first stone and slurry can be raised with a Tomo type stone pretty easily. I lapped my test stone flat with an Atoma 400 and then raised a slurry with a Tomo style rubbing stone and got a very nice JNat like finish. The original darker stones are a little more iffy on slurry also, they can add the of scratch here and there - this lighter stone doesn't seem to do that - the feel and finish is very reminiscent of the pre-WW2 asagi JNat I acquired recently. I then took my test piece back to a 1500 grit Suehiro finish to eliminate the JNat style micro-pitting and honed the test piece on straight water after smoothing the surface with the rubbing stone. 300 or 400 laps later (every 50 laps I rinsed the stone with fresh water and gave it a cleansing rub with my fingers) I had an even better mirror finish then the darker stone provides. Barely any scratches visible even in raking light. Still clearly a very fine stone, should have went to at least 5k first. The feel on this stone is much better also. The original darker stone has good feel at first but after it smoothes out it pretty much feels like glass. This stone keeps the nice feel all throughout the honing session.

Here are some shots of the new stone - I tested to see how fast it would cut the file on slurry - this was about maybe 2 minutes worth of light-medium pressure honing on slurry raised by the Tomo type stone in the photo. I think I'll coin these stones eNats so I have some way to refer to them without saying "the stone" all the time.

Well, just finished a shave after a fresh hone on my razor using the new lighter variety of stone. I bread knifed the edge to make sure the bevel was reset then went to Shapton 2k, Shapton 8k and then to the eNat with one layer of tape and did 25 laps (50 strokes total). Then went to the hanging leather for 50 laps. Just finished the shave - very close WTG and BBS ATG again - and very smooth. Very nice. Anybody else tried a shave yet?

Honed up a new test piece yesterday - a piece of HSS from a lathe cutting tool - very hard steel. I made some good sized convex bevels on opposite sides so I could directly compare finishes from stones. I tested a bunch of hones back to back on the part - one bevel for each hone and viewed them under 30x magnification. I first tested a Shapton Pro 8k (water) vs. a surgical black Ark (oil) - Shapton won, but barely. Then tried my translucent black Ark (oil), it was about even with the Shapton, but the Shapton had a bit more uniform scratch pattern. Next I went to Shapton Pro 12k (water) vs. Apache Strata (water), Apache lost that one by a bit - and I have no idea how people consider that a fast stone, mine sure isn't - guess that's the variability between stones like Ian found. Next I went with Suehiro Gokumyo (water) vs. Shapton 12k (water) - that was a blowout in favor of the 20k. Next I honed the old 12k side on the new hone on water (been calling it eNat for lack of a better term) and it BEAT the SGK20k. It really does put on an amazing finish. The key to using it is using a good bit of pressure and a pretty good amount of laps though - if you don't it won't do much for you. (I prefer using a layer of tape to finish on the "eNat," as I don't want to make a bunch of laps).

Here are some shots of my test piece convex bevels from the eNat. The area immediately behind the bevel is a near mirror finish from a very hard and fine JNat. The first two photos are through a 30x microscope, one showing the hair is exposed for the brightness of the bevel and you can see the reflection of the hair. The rest are just close up shots with my camera. The test piece is approximately 1/2" wide, with around an 1/8" bevel width.

Had another outstanding shave today, ATG and all with barely any growth just to see if it was smooth enough not to irritate the sensitive area under my jawline/neck. Passed that test with flying colors.

I've definitely found that it's key to get the surface of the stone as smooth as possible - to get the best edges and finishes it needs to be almost reflectively shiny. Best way I've found that gets really nice finishes and edges pretty quickly is to lap the stone flat with whatever diamond plate you have (or whatever your preferred method) and then use the Tomo/rubbing stone to rub the ever living crap out of the stone surface (dry - no water) until it's quite reflective/shiny. Then rinse the stone and give it a brushing under running water with a nylon brush or fingers, make sure to get it clean of all debris. After that hone with medium pressure until you see some effect on the bevel and then very light for 15 - 20 laps.

I have been getting some of my best shaves ever with this stone, it's uncanny. I can't wait until my freshly honed JNat edge gets here from Brooksie so I can compare - I've only ever had one edge honed by anyone else (big name honer, not going to name names) and this edge from this stone is much better for me.

Getting ready to try some slurry finishes with the new lighter eNat stone so I did a quick test with the HSS test piece on the convex bevels to compare the slurry finish from the eNat stone to my very hard and fine JNat Asagi that I got from a seller in Japan. Both shots are through my 30x optical microscope.

eNat slurry finish - prefinished with 5k Suehiro, then 300 laps (only 1.5" long and on convex bevel) medium pressure, then 150 laps very light pressure on medium heavy slurry:



JNat slurry finish, same conditions as above:

I received eKretz' glacial hone today and finished three razors on it a GD, a PJM CMon and a W&B. I went Chosera 1K, Norton 4/8K and the glacial stone on each. This is a very nice stone, a bonafide finisher which polishes very well. The surface of this hone has very small pits that did not effect honing on her in any way. The feedback is very slick water only, slurry helped her cut well. HHT on each was a solid 4 before stropping. All around, a very nice finisher. I won't compare her to another finisher or take pictures, IMO neither are relevant barometers of an efficient edge or shave. Shave test forthcoming.

Nice, Nelson. So did you finish on slurry too or did you use a progression and switch to straight water? I haven't tried the slurry honing yet as I'm still making strides at learning to hone on slurry better with a JNat. Once I get that dialed in I will hit this stone up for a slurry finish and see how it does.

I did both, the shave test on all the razors were excellent. All the edges are aggressive, the one I did not do water laps on was markedly smoother. Very nice stone.

What did you use to raise slurry? The tomo or diamonds?