Stroppary

I have a razor that will have 32 shaves on it, after tomorrows shave, since being honed on film with nothing but clean natural fiber and leather stropping to maintain the edge. I find I really like the feel of an edge that has just been maintained with clean strops. If an edge is loosing keenness I can often bring it back with extra stropping. If an edge is harsh I find a dozen light laps on a slack strop followed by 50 or so normal strop laps tames the edge.

I know shave_rat has an edge in the forties of shaves with just stropping and doc has one at 135 or so shaves on it. Does anyone else like to go a long time on just clean strops. Let's post em here.

It may be Heresy, but I find that after a while the edge loses any character of the original honing method and just feels like a "stropped edge."

HonerSimpson said:

It may be Heresy, but I find that after a while the edge loses any character of the original honing method and just feels like a "stropped edge."

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I was actually pondering that sort of a theory as well... Doesn't mean a "stropped edge" is bad or an uncomfortable shave, of course.

Shave_Rat said:

... Doesn't mean a "stropped edge" is bad or an uncomfortable shave, of course.

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Not at all, rather, I was thinking it puts in perspective the hype surrounding expensive finishing hones.

Some time ago, I did an experiment where I honed two razors, one on a Coticule with a Unicot finish and one on a Shapton 16k.
I then shaved half my face with one and half with the other for 4 days in a row.

On the first shave, the blades were easily distinguished - a Coticule edge has a "feel" that is very familiar to me.
Shave closeness and comfort were similar.

I could still distinguish the two during the second shave, but not the third. By the fourth shave they had both completed the transition to the "stropped edge."

HonerSimpson said:

Some time ago, I did an experiment where I honed two razors, one on a Coticule with a Unicot finish and one on a Shapton 16k.
I then shaved half my face with one and half with the other for 4 days in a row.

On the first shave, the blades were easily distinguished - a Coticule edge has a "feel" that is very familiar to me.
Shave closeness and comfort were similar.

I could still distinguish the two during the second shave, but not the third. By the fourth shave they had both completed the transition to the "stropped edge."

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Cool experiment.

When Doc did his 135 shaves with just stropping, he said he stopped at that point, not because the razor was no longer sharp, but because it finally felt different than it did just off the hone. From this I would surmise that Doc's "stropped edge" is very similar to his Jnat edge. During Doc's experiment, he often compared the strop only razor to other freshly honed razors to make sure his perception wasn't drifting.

Stropping is one of my very favorite parts of the shave....especially now with the Kanayama.

bluesman 7 said:

Cool experiment.

When Doc did his 135 shaves with just stropping, he said he stopped at that point, not because the razor was no longer sharp, but because it finally felt different than it did just off the hone. From this I would surmise that Doc's "stropped edge" is very similar to his Jnat edge. During Doc's experiment, he often compared the strop only razor to other freshly honed razors to make sure his perception wasn't drifting.

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It makes sense that a honing method which brings the edge very close to the geometry of the stropped edge would not only be considered a good edge, but also that it would be long lived.

Copied from Shave_rat's journal; "46 shaves, and the edge on the JB is still going strong. Standard 3 pass, 96% BBS. I figure anytime I hit into the mid 90%+, it's a win. No cuts or irritation."

On this theme, considering I'm new and haven't invested fully into all the kit, how would a CrOx or Diamond grit on balsa/strop play into a different edge feel over time or diverge from the purely "stropped edge" feel?

SpikedLemon said:

On this theme, considering I'm new and haven't invested fully into all the kit, how would a CrOx or Diamond grit on balsa/strop play into a different edge feel over time or diverge from the purely "stropped edge" feel?

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I think the variability of stropping nuance from person to person, along with the subjectivity of "the feel of the shave", makes that question unanswerable. Personally, I don't think I would be able to tell the difference from an edge that was a dozen shaves away from the hone or balsa and CrOx. Most new shavers would have a hard time getting a high number of shaves between touch ups with just clean strops. Suffice to say that many people are happy with edges maintained with pasted paddles or pasted hanging strops and finished on clean strops for long periods of time. Some use the pastes only infrequently and others after every shave.

bluesman 7 said:

... along with the subjectivity of "the feel of the shave", makes that question unanswerable....

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I think that's probably true, but it won't stop me..


What I am calling "the stropped edge" results from both stropping and use. Simply stropping 700 laps does not have the same result as shaving and stropping 100 times everyday for a week. I imagine that weak/thin edges are chipped away by use and the chipped area resharpened by stropping. In that way, the edge becomes somewhat more convex and less fragile.

It has been a long time since I used a balsa strop, so I won't comment on that. In my experience, CrOx on leather doesn't really do anything that that stropping on clean leather does, it just does it much faster. I think of CrOx as steroids for the strop. Again, 100 laps on CrOx does not have the same effect as shaving and doing 15 laps every day for a week. The straight 100 laps seems to make a foil edge, where the maintenance regime does not.

Stopping on Diamond (I use 0.25 micron) is tricky. It can produce the sharpest smoothest edge imaginable, but it seems very easy to produce a weak foil edge. Typically, the first or sometimes the second shave after honing/diamond stropping causes me irritation but later touch-ups on the diamond produce a smooth shaving edge that is keener than the "stropped edge" Again I imagine shaving breaks away the fragile bits and stropping resharpens the edge into a more convex, robust geometry.

HonerSimpson said:

I think that's probably true, but it won't stop me..


What I am calling "the stropped edge" results from both stropping and use. Simply stropping 700 laps does not have the same result as shaving and stropping 100 times everyday for a week. I imagine that weak/thin edges are chipped away by use and the chipped area resharpened by stropping. In that way, the edge becomes somewhat more convex and less fragile.

It has been a long time since I used a balsa strop, so I won't comment on that. In my experience, CrOx on leather doesn't really do anything that that stropping on clean leather does, it just does it much faster. I think of CrOx as steroids for the strop. Again, 100 laps on CrOx does not have the same effect as shaving and doing 15 laps every day for a week. The straight 100 laps seems to make a foil edge, where the maintenance regime does not.

Stopping on Diamond (I use 0.25 micron) is tricky. It can produce the sharpest smoothest edge imaginable, but it seems very easy to produce a weak foil edge. Typically, the first or sometimes the second shave after honing/diamond stropping causes me irritation but later touch-ups on the diamond produce a smooth shaving edge that is keener than the "stropped edge" Again I imagine shaving breaks away the fragile bits and stropping resharpens the edge into a more convex, robust geometry.

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Wow! Great post! I had never thought of shaving as being part of the edge conditioning, but of course it is.

Once in a while I experience irritation after a shave, where the blade felt very keen during the shave. I notice this irritation a bit after the shave, maybe up to an hour later. When this happens the post shave stropping has already been done and I add a dozen very light laps on slightly slack clean leather. Before the next shave with that razor, I do my normal pre shave stropping. This has never failed to take the harshness of the edge for me.

The following is copied from my response on another thread where the OP was asking about using the flesh side of the leather. It seemed relevant on this thread also;


I wondered this same thing. The flesh side of leather is different. I have been experimenting with the flesh side of an old cowhide belt. I sanded the leather up to 600 grit, then worked in some pure carnauba wax from a block, and then 'boned' the leather with the bottom corner of a drinking glass to compact the leather fibers. I'm pretty sure this is what Russian split leather strops are. I have one razor that I strop on this exclusively, along with a hemp fiber strop, to see what the long term effects are compared to my other razors that are stropped on a vintage horse hide and hemp strops.

Tomorrow's shave will be the 17th on this test razor since I started using the 'split leather strop' and the 24th since the razor was honed. Nothing but clean natural fiber and leather strops since honing. The razor is very keen and smooth. I consider the 'split leather' experiment a complete success and would not hesitate to use it on all of my razors except for the fact that my vintage horse hide is also very pleasurable to use and far more attractive hanging in the bathroom than an old belt. The 'split leather' is more aggressive than the HH and when I have a razor that isn't getting sharp on the HH I bring out the 'split leather'.

blues,

When you say slack strop, obviously you are talking about a hanging stop- but then when you do the laps on a non slack strop- is that just you holding it tighter? or is it on a board?

Thanks!

isi07734 said:

blues,

When you say slack strop, obviously you are talking about a hanging stop- but then when you do the laps on a non slack strop- is that just you holding it tighter? or is it on a board?

Thanks!

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That's just holding more tension on the same hanging strop. I have a clean leather paddle strop, but never got good results with it on razors.

HonerSimpson said:

It may be Heresy, but I find that after a while the edge loses any character of the original honing method and just feels like a "stropped edge."

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You know, that's really interesting.

Personal things have kept me away from honing (and mostly from the forums) for a few months, and I've just been stropping and shaving.

After seeing this thread, over the past couple of weeks I've been cycling through my favourite dozen or so razors, stropping as usual and shaving daily - so each shave was as close to the same conditions as I could reasonably make it.

The edges I used include ones finished on SS12k, Surgical Black Ark, JNAT and coticules - most honed by me, but a few by others.

And I really can't tell the difference between any of them now - apart from the obvious weight differences between different size blades, the edges all feel the same in terms of sharpness and smoothness.

I really could tell the difference between edges when they were new - Brooksie's JNAT edge was something special when it was fresh, and Gary's Coticule edge blew away the best I could get from the Belgian beauties.

So yes, it really does seem like I have a collection of "stropped edges" now. And you know what? They shave just fine!

This is a very good thread and one that has given me much to think on. A question comes to mind though. What is then done to a razor that still shaves well through repeated stropping but has been a while since honing? Is a refresh done, or a complete honing?

mglindo said:

...What is then done to a razor that still shaves well through repeated stropping but has been a while since honing? Is a refresh done, or a complete honing?

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I guess it depends on your standard for "shaves well" but if refresh doesn't bring it to my standard, I go to a full honing.

Oscroft said:

.... stropping as usual and shaving daily ....

....The edges I used include ones finished on SS12k, Surgical Black Ark, JNAT and coticules...

....I really can't tell the difference between any of them now ....

So yes, it really does seem like I have a collection of "stropped edges" now. And you know what? They shave just fine!

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Denounce the lunacy of finishing hones! Embrace the power of the mighty strop!

mglindo said:

What is then done to a razor that still shaves well through repeated stropping but has been a while since honing? Is a refresh done, or a complete honing?

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Well, I think the point of this thread is that if the razor is shaving well, there is no reason to hone it just because it "has been a while" Once the razor is no longer shaving well, then I would make the decision of how much of a re hone was needed. I personally would likely try the touch up first, and if that did not work go down to some lower grits.