New Bevel Setting Stone

Carborundum #118.

Note - this is not a larger version of the #118s baber hone; this one is harder, coarser, and not a 'razor hone'.

But - this is a good option for a 1k-ish stone to set razor bevels with - could be wider but the price was good and the box is pretty cool.
It's 8x2x.75". These may have been made in other sizes but I'm not sure.

It's fast - real fast. It set a bevel on an auction site blade so fast it made me laugh.
Like all of these stones - how the surface is lapped and what lubricant is used will have a lot to say about how fast and 'fine' it is.

Basically - it's an oil stone but it can be used with water/soap - probably glycerine/water also.
I think that oil smudge on the right side will come out with a bit of oven cleaner. If not, it's no problem.
The honing surface cleaned up perfectly with lapping - looks brand new.
Works well for kitchen cutlery also - put a nice edge on a chef's knife really quickly.

Very cool. It would be a very neat stone to use as a bevel setter in an Arkansas progression.

I think so. Actually - I think it would be a good stone for anyone with any system so long as they had a really good 3k for clean up.
The cutting is fast and clean, but it is a 'heavier' cut than a 1k C or whatever.
I like this stone alot, and they sell on fleapay for low $$ quite frequently.
I doubt anyone is going to go for one since it's not exotic, rated in JIS, documented heavily on shaving forums or the pet of some honing guru.
I need to get a chipped razor - I want to see how long it takes me to clear the edge.
I have a feeling this might be my new 'chipped blade' stone.

I'll be interested to hear how it works for chips. I've been liking a Norton medium India for this (slow, but gets the job done). Since the stone is marked "fine," I suppose there was a "coarse" and maybe a "medium" stone out there as well. I wonder how it compares to a fine Crystalon. Carborundum equals silicon carbide, no.?

This is definitely one of their SIC stones. I believe there were 'medium' and 'coarse' stones too.

I just picked one of these up ( and the s barber version) how would you say it works vs a SS 1k? Also what kind of oil did you use on it?

Alum of Potash said:

Then it's probably good for chips. With Dan's honing oil, I move from a medium India for chips to a Dan's soft/medium Arkansas for bevel-setting. Works great. When the medium India is filled with swarf, it becomes less aggressive and can even serve as a bevel-setter, which may be where your stone is if it hasn't been freshly lapped. A book I use as a general reference (Steve Bottorff, Sharpening Made Easy, 2002) places a medium India (aluminum oxide) and a fine Crystalon (silicon carbide) as equivalents, clocking in at 280 JIS. My experience has been that this rating must be out of the box. Once the medium India has become worn, it might move anywhere from ~400-500 JIS when freshly lapped to ~800-1k JIS with swarf. It is somewhat fluid in this way.

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These stones are used with tools mostly. 280 JIS is when you're driving a tool down into the stone as you hone. I agree that they (India's) cut much finer grit than they're rated at with razors, but the cut is so irregular, it's no more useful than if they cut at 280 for me (my 220grit DMT leaves a better finish to work off of than any of the India's I own, my 600grit DMT leaves an edge visually superior to them without magnification), I never touch them with my razors any more.

SliceOfLife said:

These stones are used with tools mostly. 280 JIS is when you're driving a tool down into the stone as you hone.

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Then it's probably good for chips. With Dan's honing oil, I move from a medium India for chips to a Dan's soft/medium Arkansas for bevel-setting. Works great. When the medium India is filled with swarf, it becomes less aggressive and can even serve as a bevel-setter, which may be where your stone is if it hasn't been freshly lapped. A book I use as a general reference (Steve Bottorff, Sharpening Made Easy, 2002) places a medium India (aluminum oxide) and a fine Crystalon (silicon carbide) as equivalents, clocking in at 280 JIS. My experience has been that this rating must be out of the box. Once the medium India has become worn, it might move anywhere from ~400-500 JIS when freshly lapped to ~800-1k JIS with swarf. It is somewhat fluid in this way.

Sorry, I deleted my post as it wasn't necessarily germane to the Carborundum hone being considered. That said, perhaps you are right about the directional pressure being employed, although the book in question is oriented towards knives (with the rating charts being taken from a long-since defunct website). Used with a straight razor moving relatively lightly across the surface with oil, I find a medium or a fine India works well, as I've described. Out of the box, they are very aggressive though; lapping followed by subsequent use, followed by lapping to refresh from accumulated swarf, reveals that they have been tamed to some extent. This assumes a dedicated oil-stone progression with oil.

scag315 said:

I just picked one of these up ( and the s barber version) how would you say it works vs a SS 1k? Also what kind of oil did you use on it?

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1k SS is way slower and finer, polishes more too.
I used a water/soap mix, not oil.

Alum of Potash said:

Then it's probably good for chips. With Dan's honing oil, I move from a medium India for chips to a Dan's soft/medium Arkansas for bevel-setting. Works great. When the medium India is filled with swarf, it becomes less aggressive and can even serve as a bevel-setter, which may be where your stone is if it hasn't been freshly lapped. A book I use as a general reference (Steve Bottorff, Sharpening Made Easy, 2002) places a medium India (aluminum oxide) and a fine Crystalon (silicon carbide) as equivalents, clocking in at 280 JIS. My experience has been that this rating must be out of the box. Once the medium India has become worn, it might move anywhere from ~400-500 JIS when freshly lapped to ~800-1k JIS with swarf. It is somewhat fluid in this way.

Sorry, I deleted my post as it wasn't necessarily germane to the Carborundum hone being considered. That said, perhaps you are right about the directional pressure being employed. Used with a straight razor moving relatively lightly across the surface with oil, I find a medium or a fine India works well, as I've described. Out of the box, it is very aggressive though; lapping followed by subsequent use, followed by lapping to refresh from accumulated swarf, shows that it has been tamed to some extent. This assumes a dedicated oil-stone progression with oil.

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What are you lapping with? I wonder if you're taming it by shaving down the stones surface abrasives (which since it's an oilstone would remain in place for awhile) as the PDF someone posted recently suggested was happening with coticule garnets when using DMT's to slurry. If that's happening it'd certainly give a smoother finish than a raw stone. Truth be told in my use I found Washita's to be nearly as fast as India's and to leave an immeasurably cleaner finish when I needed to remove chips. Their ability to fracture under pressure makes them cut like chainsaws when grinding out chips.

Gamma said:

1k SS is way slower and finer, polishes more too.
I used a water/soap mix, not oil.

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I have a Fredrick reynolds 7/8" American razor that simply will not get sharp enough at the *** end of the heel and tip of the barber notch. Rest of the blade is perfect just the very ends. Using 1 layer of tape I spent an hour doing rolling x strokes on my SS. I've considered going down to a vintage norton (believe its an alundum) but I'm afraid it'd be too aggressive for a razor. Do you think trying this 118 then progrssing back to a 1k SS then BBW/coticule slurry dilution progression would work? Or should I simply continue to do rolling X on the SS til blade is sharp heel to toe?

SliceOfLife said:

What are you lapping with? I wonder if you're taming it by shaving down the stones surface abrasives (which since it's an oilstone would remain in place for awhile) as the PDF someone posted recently suggested was happening with coticule garnets when using DMT's to slurry. If that's happening it'd certainly give a smoother finish than a raw stone. Truth be told in my use I found Washita's to be nearly as fast as India's and to leave an immeasurably cleaner finish when I needed to remove chips. Their ability to fracture under pressure makes them cut like chainsaws when grinding out chips.

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We're moving off-topic here, if the fine Carborundum hone as originally marketed was not intended as competition to a fine Crystalon; but in the past, I have followed the old-time recommendation of using emery cloth, which perhaps is shaving down the surface abrasive, as you suggest (my guess is that it is the razor doing the most of the work here). Wanting to return to a more aggressive surface, I have more recently moved to 120x silicon carbide powder on a granite slab. This did the trick, as lapping an India is, well, an interesting experience as it is oil-filled.

Let me provide a recent experience, using Dan's honing oil by default as a medium. In the past, when the India was smoothed and filled with swarf, it suggested a "bevel set" edge, tempting me to skip the soft/hard Arkansas. Recently, I picked up a nice Soligen 6/8 off the 'bay that had some chipping--nothing really visible, but more severe than what I would call micro-chipping (viewed in silhouette with a 20x Hastings triplet). Switching to the freshly lapped medium India as I have indicated equalized the terrain; the larger chips were reduced, combined with organically-shaped micro-chipping all along the edge. Still, it was a bit more aggressive than I would have liked. The soft/medium Arkansas improved on this, leaving "teeth" and the occasional geometric micro-chip. Then a Dan's "true-hard" Arkansas (poor-man's translucent) removed the micro-chipping, leaving fainter "teeth." A Sharpening Supplies black hard Arkansas smoothed the edge. This was followed by 40 laps linen, 60 laps WH horse butt, with an excellent shave being the result.

If I continue with this medium India without lapping for a spell, I have no doubt that it will start to smooth over and fill with swarf, hinting at "bevel setting" once again. My experience with Washitas has varied. A modern production Washita that I obtained from Dan's can substitute for an India, as you say, while a vintage Norton no. 1 moves between a fine India and a current production "hard" Arkansas depending on how loaded with swarf it is. As far as the arm-hair test goes, it is, without doubt, the best "bevel setter" I've ever used. Following this, a vintage Pike's lilywhite can move from bevel-setting to middle range depending on the same fluid conditions. My understanding is that a soft/medium Arkansas is also technically a Washita, so that appellation appears relative.

scag315 said:

I have a Fredrick reynolds 7/8" American razor that simply will not get sharp enough at the *** end of the heel and tip of the barber notch. Rest of the blade is perfect just the very ends. Using 1 layer of tape I spent an hour doing rolling x strokes on my SS. I've considered going down to a vintage norton (believe its an alundum) but I'm afraid it'd be too aggressive for a razor. Do you think trying this 118 then progrssing back to a 1k SS then BBW/coticule slurry dilution progression would work? Or should I simply continue to do rolling X on the SS til blade is sharp heel to toe?

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Hard to say - so many things could be going on.

One thing though - if the steel is fine/good/etc - and you're not getting what you want off one stone, or one type of stone - moving to another type of stone can help get past the wall. Doesn't have to be a scientific explanation either - just do it and if it works then that's that. Sure - trying the 118 might help you get the toe/heel into shape.

But - If the steel is fine - then you simply haven't hit it yet on the SS and logical sense says you can hit it if you stay on it.

Nani SS 1k was not my favorite bevel setter.

scag315 said:

I have a Fredrick reynolds 7/8" American razor that simply will not get sharp enough at the *** end of the heel and tip of the barber notch. Rest of the blade is perfect just the very ends. Using 1 layer of tape I spent an hour doing rolling x strokes on my SS. I've considered going down to a vintage norton (believe its an alundum) but I'm afraid it'd be too aggressive for a razor. Do you think trying this 118 then progrssing back to a 1k SS then BBW/coticule slurry dilution progression would work? Or should I simply continue to do rolling X on the SS til blade is sharp heel to toe?

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The stone shouldn't really matter here; it is all in the stroke. Try more of a lateral rolling-X pass with the stone you already have, emphasizing its width rather than its length, to equalize things--1-2 inches of length tops in the middle of the stone, one-handed, letting the toe literally run off the stone's edge with each pass, if needed, while gripping the shank more from side to side. Gripping the shank more from side to side allows you to direct pressure as needed with the thumb. Such a grip carried slightly towards the edge-leading diagonal ensures that the bevel and edge see a bit more love than the spine does, thus rendering the question of taping moot while maintaining an integral spine-to-edge angle relationship.

My guess is you don't have the bevel properly set at the extreme ends - don't ask me how I would know... Go back to a bevel setter, and do circles/ellipses with a little pressure or bias to the toe and heel areas and watch that the edge "scrapes" the water off the hone at the dull areas.

Cheers, Steve

IMO - playing catch-up on the SS 1k isn't fun. Of course it can be done, but that stone is slow and IMO it doesn't lend itself well to this type of scenario.

All roads lead to Rome though. If you cut the bevel well in the middle on that stone, there's no reason why you can't match it at the ends.
It's just a matter of technique and paying attention.

You might want to check the flatness of your 1k. Check across the length and the middle in 3 places.
Sometimes, there's a dip that can cause grief.
If nothing else, it'll remove one possible variable.